Dead in Sin

[Ascetic X]

All humans, including babies, do not die because of a curse; they die because they have sinned.

Romans 6:23. For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Romans 5:18. So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.

The only age of accountability mentioned in the Bible is 20 years old (Numbers 14:29-32) which, of course, has nothing at all to do with the death of babies. Moreover, babies are not judged for their own personal sins—they are judged for the sin that they committed in Adam. Furthermore, babies do not die due to mortal consequences of a sin nature in them (human beings do not have a sin nature); they die because they have sinned—in Adam.

Quote me some Bible verses that say babies or anybody “sinned in Adam”.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

One should believe God and His word. And what did God reveal in His word concerning whom He saves?

God revealed in His word that He saves all of His elect whom He chose before the world began - the sheep that Christ died for, their sins having been imputed to Him and His perfect righteousness having been imputed to them.

God also revealed in His word that He does not save those whom He reprobated before the world began.

If God really revealed in His word these things, why did not anyone notice such concepts in the Bible before the 16th century? We have today a huge quantity of Pre-Reformation Christian literature that has been digitalized and very carefully studied, by persons representing a very wide spectrum of theological thought and we know for an absolute certainty that such concepts are not found in any Christian literature before the 16th century. Indeed, such concepts were introduced into the Church during the early years of the Protestant Reformation by men whose only theological education came from Roman Catholics during a time when the Roman Catholic Church was in a state of serious decay.

I really don't want to come across as someone with a 'critical spirit,' but what @Craigbythesea has written is simply not correct. Nor do I want to pass myself off as some great authority on medieval Christianity, which I'm certainly not. The details that folow are mostly taken from 2,000 Years of Christ's Power, vol. 2 by Dr. N.R. Needham.
Just to give one example, a chap called Gottschalk of Orbais (805-869) taught what would later be called the Reformed doctrines of sin, grace and predestination around his home town of Orbais in France. For his trouble, he was flogged to within an inch of his life by the local Archbishop, Hincmar of Rheims, who also burned all his books. However, Gottschalk was also a poet, and some of his devotional poetry remains, which give evidence of his Reformed convictions.

Gottschalk was not without his followers, however, and one, Remigius of Lyons has, it seems, left us with a defense of him. Please note that in giving this extract I am not saying that I agree with all of it, nor am I saying that we should look to medieval churchmen for the truth which is clearly contained in the Bible. I am only giving this extract to show that @Craigbythesea is not correct in saying that the concepts we now call 'Reformed' were not held by anyone before the 16th Century:

'With one meaning, one mouth and one spirit, the most blessed fathers of the Church declare and approve the unshakable truth of God's foreknowledge and predestination, in the case both of the elect to glory, and of te reprobate to punishment (athough not to sin). The fathers boldly state that God's decree here demonstrates for us an unchangeable order, not of arrangements in time, nor of things which begin at a particular time, but of the everlasting purposes of God. They affirm that none of the elect can perish - and that none of the reprobate can be saved, owing to their hard and impenitent hearts. The truth of holy Scripture and the authority of the holy orthodox fathers declare this with perfect harmony, and they require us to believe and accept it without any doubting. Therefore, even if you condemn the shallowness of the unfortunate monk, Gottschalke, and disapprove his rashness, and blame his loud-mouthed insolence, you must not for that reason deny divine truth..........
.........Human nature does not have within itself any vital feeling which endeavours after true life, unless it is raised up and made alive by Him who says, 'This my son was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found' (Luke 15:24), and is enlivened by the Spirit of who the apostle says, 'The letter kils but the Spirit gives life' (2 Cor. 3:6). So souls are dead and are daily brought to life, of whom the Lord speaks in the Gospel, 'The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live' (John 5:25).

[From Reply to the Three Letters, chapeters 10 & 21, traditionally ascribed to Remigius of Lyons. More extracts available if required]

 

[Ben1445]

Quote me some Bible verses that say babies or anybody “sinned in Adam”.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Romans 5:19
For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

But this is to be understood in light of this preceding thought…

Romans 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

This is as close as I can find for where it comes from.
While it is true that we are sinners made sinners after the likeness of Adam, we are not responsible for Adam’s sin.
I believe in original sin to the extent that Adam committed it. There are people who not only do not have original sin but have not sinned even to the extent of Adam’s original sin.

Romans 5:14
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.


Were original sin something to consider, there would be no one who could say that they were not in the same way as Adam.

 

[Ascetic X]

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Romans 5:19
For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

But this is to be understood in light of this preceding thought…

Romans 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

This is as close as I can find for where it comes from.
While it is true that we are sinners made sinners after the likeness of Adam, we are not responsible for Adam’s sin.
I believe in original sin to the extent that Adam committed it. There are people who not only do not have original sin but have not sinned even to the extent of Adam’s original sin.

Romans 5:14
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.


Were original sin something to consider, there would be no one who could say that they were not in the same way as Adam.

Thanks, but I was looking for the specific phrase “sinned in Adam”. Your verses are relevant, though.

“All have sinned” in themselves, but not in Adam. Because of Adam is a better way to put it.

“In Adam all die” because death reigns due to Adam’s sin.

By Adam’s disobedience many were made sinners — because we have the fallen sin nature that Adam introduced and we sin personally. We need to become new creations in Christ, so old things pass away and all things become new.

Perhaps this is just a matter of semantics.

 

[Van]

I have address the issue Van you just do not like the scripture that I pointed out to you.

You seem to have a problem with God enabling the lost person to hear, understand and respond in faith or reject the gospel.

Why is that Van?

Is that not what He did for you?

Or do you think He just gave you faith?

God created fallen humans with the limited capacity to understand spiritual milk, which includes the gospel.

See 1 Corinthians 2:14 - 3:3

To be dead in sin is to be separated from God due to unholiness.

 

[Silverhair]

God created fallen humans with the limited capacity to understand spiritual milk, which includes the gospel.

See 1 Corinthians 2:14 - 3:3

To be dead in sin is to be separated from God due to unholiness.

Van I understand what "dead in sin" means.

What seems to have been overlooked is that Paul in 1Co was writing to believers. And as it turns out they were immature believers. Those he could not speak to as spiritual men but as infants in Christ. 1Co_3:1-3

He is not saying that the unsaved cannot understand the gospel message.

That is why we need the grace of God, the grace that goes before, so that we can hear the gospel and respond in faith to that message.

 

[Van]

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Romans 5:19
For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

But this is to be understood in light of this preceding thought…

Romans 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

This is as close as I can find for where it comes from.
While it is true that we are sinners made sinners after the likeness of Adam, we are not responsible for Adam’s sin.
I believe in original sin to the extent that Adam committed it. There are people who not only do not have original sin but have not sinned even to the extent of Adam’s original sin.

Romans 5:14
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.


Were original sin something to consider, there would be no one who could say that they were not in the same way as Adam.

1) "In Adam all die" does not suggest or say "all sinned in Adam" Recall that the pre-born had done nothing good or bad.

2) Being "made sinners" does not suggest or say "all sinned in Adam." Recall that the pre-born had done nothing good or bad.

3) "For all have sinned" means everyone in Adam has suffered the consequence of sin, made sinners and condemned in unbelief.

4) Agreed, the fallen are not guilty of Adam's sin, but the fallen have suffered the consequence of Adam's sin.

5) All people suffer the consequence of Adam's sin as all were made sinners.

6) Sin is sin, if you break on point, you have broken it all. The wages of sin is death.

7) Yes, people die, not because they committed volitional sin, knowing an action violated God's will, but death as a consequence of Adam's sin reigned from Adam to the present and will reign until the end of the age.

 

[JD731]

The dynamics of "drawing" is completely different in the gospel accounts of Jesus Christ and his ministry, which is before his blood sacrifice of himself on the cross, than the "drawing" during the post resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead. The difference is the non existence of any drawing after the resurrection. What does this tell us. It tells us the drawing of God to Christ his son is in a Jewish and a "physical" context.

This nation was an expectant nation because of their Bible, that contained the promises that God made just to them first, and by extension to the world. The promises required a physical deliverer, a man, someone they could see and he must be recognizable through their prophets. This would be the drawing power for these people to whom the promises are made. The prophets said he would be born of a virgin, he would be born in Bethlehem, he would do miracles and those who believed and were anticipating his coming would be drawn to him because of these things.

Jn 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

But they have seen the son and Jesus would later say that he that hath seen the son hath seen the Father.

The requirement during the gospels for them to be drawn to him is to see him. This thing is strictly physical.

John 6:40
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day

No lost men saw Jesus after his resurrection. Therefore no one was drawn to him physically and the word is not in the epistles with this connotation. The word itself does not appear in the 13 letters Paul wrote explaining how to be saved. Does anyone think that strange if what they teach is true?

Following is as close as it gets and one can see that a man initiates the drawing.
James 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded. We need to rightly divide the scriptures and honor context and history. Eternal souls will be affected by what we teach. We must teach the truth.

 

[Van]

Van I understand what "dead in sin" means.

What seems to have been overlooked is that Paul in 1Co was writing to believers. And as it turns out they were immature believers. Those he could not speak to as spiritual men but as infants in Christ. 1Co_3:1-3

He is not saying that the unsaved cannot understand the gospel message.

That is why we need the grace of God, the grace that goes before, so that we can hear the gospel and respond in faith to that message.

One of the most common ploys to nullify scripture that does not fit with false doctrine is to play the audience card, the old that does not apply to the issue in dispute. Fiddlesticks.

Paul spoke, using spiritual milk, to "men of flesh" as well as believers. That is the point you seem to want to nullify.

He never said nor suggest the lost cannot understand the gospel, you seem to be reading that into the text. Just how do you suppose many seek the narrow door unless they understand the gospel?

Prevenient Grace is an invention from the dark ages and needs to be assigned to the dust bin of history.

 

[Silverhair]

The difference is the non existence of any drawing after the resurrection. What does this tell us. It tells us the drawing of God to Christ his son is in a Jewish and a "physical" context.

So how do you explain Joh 12:32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."

We do not need the word "draw" to be in the text to see God's desire that all come to Him for salvation. 1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

We have the conviction of our sins Joh 16:8 "And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment;

We have the gospel message Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes,...

We have creation itself Rom 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

To say that God is not drawing man since the resurrection is to miss the whole message of the bible.

 

[Van]

The dynamics of "drawing" is completely different in the gospel accounts of Jesus Christ and his ministry, which is before his blood sacrifice of himself on the cross, than the "drawing" during the post resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead. The difference is the non existence of any drawing after the resurrection. What does this tell us. It tells us the drawing of God to Christ his son is in a Jewish and a "physical" context.

This nation was an expectant nation because of their Bible, that contained the promises that God made just to them first, and by extension to the world. The promises required a physical deliverer, a man, someone they could see and he must be recognizable through their prophets. This would be the drawing power for these people to whom the promises are made. The prophets said he would be born of a virgin, he would be born in Bethlehem, he would do miracles and those who believed and were anticipating his coming would be drawn to him because of these things.

Jn 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

But they have seen the son and Jesus would later say that he that hath seen the son hath seen the Father.

The requirement during the gospels for them to be drawn to him is to see him. This thing is strictly physical.

John 6:40
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day

No lost men saw Jesus after his resurrection. Therefore no one was drawn to him physically and the word is not in the epistles with this connotation. The word itself does not appear in the 13 letters Paul wrote explaining how to be saved. Does anyone think that strange if what they teach is true?

Following is as close as it gets and one can see that a man initiates the drawing.
James 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded. We need to rightly divide the scriptures and honor context and history. Eternal souls will be affected by what we teach. We must teach the truth.

Total fiction. John wrote John 6:44 after the resurrection. Drawing refers to attracting the lost by conveying the lovingkindness of God, both before Christ died and after Christ died. Everyone who "sees" refers to those who mentally perceive Jesus and consider His name.

Lots of lost people saw Jesus after His bodily resurrection, He was visible, and was in a physical body that ate broiled fish. He appeared to 500 people at one time. Yes, brothers may refer to believers rather than simply those of his community, but the question is open, as it strains credulity to claim all 500 were all born anew.

The people with Paul on the road indeed did not see Jesus, but they heard His voice. They did not understand the words as Jesus spoke in Aramaic.

Final point, Thomas was not a believer, but was a disciple when he saw Jesus, see John 20:27.

 

[Ascetic X]

The dynamics of "drawing" is completely different in the gospel accounts of Jesus Christ and his ministry, which is before his blood sacrifice of himself on the cross, than the "drawing" during the post resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead. The difference is the non existence of any drawing after the resurrection. What does this tell us. It tells us the drawing of God to Christ his son is in a Jewish and a "physical" context.

This nation was an expectant nation because of their Bible, that contained the promises that God made just to them first, and by extension to the world. The promises required a physical deliverer, a man, someone they could see and he must be recognizable through their prophets. This would be the drawing power for these people to whom the promises are made. The prophets said he would be born of a virgin, he would be born in Bethlehem, he would do miracles and those who believed and were anticipating his coming would be drawn to him because of these things.

Jn 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

But they have seen the son and Jesus would later say that he that hath seen the son hath seen the Father.

The requirement during the gospels for them to be drawn to him is to see him. This thing is strictly physical.

John 6:40
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day

No lost men saw Jesus after his resurrection. Therefore no one was drawn to him physically and the word is not in the epistles with this connotation. The word itself does not appear in the 13 letters Paul wrote explaining how to be saved. Does anyone think that strange if what they teach is true?

Following is as close as it gets and one can see that a man initiates the drawing.

James 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded. We need to rightly divide the scriptures and honor context and history. Eternal souls will be affected by what we teach. We must teach the truth.

To say there is no more instances of the Father “drawing to Christ” the unsaved — this seems like a semantics issue.

To lead seems the same as to draw.

Romans 2:4

4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

The word ἐλκύσω, "I will draw," is applied elsewhere (John 6:44) to the Father's work of grace, which preveniently prepares men to come to Christ.

In these words we learn that the attraction of the cross of Christ will prove to be the mightiest and most sovereign motive ever brought to bear on the human will, and, when wielded by the Holy Spirit as a revelation of the matchless love of God, will involve the most sweeping judicial sentence that can be pronounced upon the world and its prince.

In John 16:11 the belief or the conviction that the prince of this world has been already condemned (κέκριται) is one of the great results of the mission of the Comforter.

Interesting that after being resurrected, the Bible states that Jesus appeared only to His disciples and believers. While there is no biblical record of unbelievers seeing the risen Christ, it is not inconceivable. Since we all must believe God raised Him from the dead, according to Romans 10:9,10. So why would the risen Christ not let the public see Him?

But that does not necessarily mean unsaved people were entirely absent…?

I Corinthians 15:6

After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.

It is hard to imagine that the over 500 brethren were somewhere out of sight from the public, but perhaps they were…? Seems like if over 500 individuals gathered somewhere, passerby would notice. They would not fit into a typical home or synagogue. Some secret spot, for fear of the Jews?

 

[Ben1445]

Thanks, but I was looking for the specific phrase “sinned in Adam”. Your verses are relevant, though.

“All have sinned” in themselves, but not in Adam. Because of Adam is a better way to put it.

“In Adam all die” because death reigns due to Adam’s sin.

By Adam’s disobedience many were made sinners — because we have the fallen sin nature that Adam introduced and we sin personally. We need to become new creations in Christ, so old things pass away and all things become new.

Perhaps this is just a matter of semantics.

Here is someone who has looked into this far enough to find four different views on the subject.

It definitely sounds like semantics between some.
It definitely is different from one end of the spectrum to the other.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

More from Dr. Needham's book:

Hincmar's brutal treatment of Gottschalk outraged many Churchmen. Great Roman Catholic scholars leapt to the defense of Gottschalk and his theology - notably Archbishop Remigius of Lyons (d. 875), Florus of Lyons (d.860) and the monk Ratramnus of Corbie. The church of Lyons produced some of the greatest medieval works in defence of Augustinian theology.: The Reply to the Three Letters (of Hincmar and Rabanus), On the Universal Ruin of all Humanity through Adam and the Special Redemption of the Elect through Christ and On Steadfastly Holding the Truth of Scripture and faithfully following the Authority of the Holy orthodox Fathers. THese have all been attributed to archbishop Remigius, although some modern scholars think Florus was the real author. The councils of Valence (855) and Langres (859) also sanctioned a strong Augustinianism. However, the councils of Quiercy (853) and Savonnieres(859) upheld the more Semi-Pelagian theology of Rabanus and Hincmar. The two prties reached a compromise at the council of Toucy in 860, over which the West Frankish king Charles the Bald presided. Hincmar, the most powerful bishop in France, took the leading part in the council, and the compromise agreement favoured hsi views (e,g. it said that God wills the salvation of all human beings, and that Christ died for all.
DEspite the council of Toucy, the isues raised by Gottschalk were never really resolved. Approval for Hincmar's Semi-Pelagian views only ever came from local Frankish councils, never from an ecumenical Council, and a full-blooded Augustinianism continued to flourish within Western Christendom. [emboldening mine. M.M.]

 

[Van]

Ephesians 2:1 NASB as footnoted.​

And you [Gentile believers] being dead by reason of your offenses and sins,​

By being spiritually dead means being separated from God due to our unholy depravity, like those physically dead are separated from those living. It does NOT mean having no knowledge of God, as His invisible attributes have been made known to him, so he is without excuse.​

Being spiritually dead does not mean an inability seek God, as many will seek the narrow door but not be able to find it.​

Being spiritually dead does mean we are unable to correct our problem of unholiness and reconcile our separation from God.​

Being spiritually dead does not mean God has not provided our means of reconciliation through faith in the name of Jesus. The lost have the ability to believe such that God will credit the belief as righteousness and transfer the person's "spiritually dead" spirit into Christ, resulting in the person being made alive together with Christ. Behold the washing of regeneration.​

Sin causes separation from God, and to be in that sinful state, in that realm of darkness, is to be "dead in sin." In that state we cannot do anything to merit our reconciliation. But we can put our faith in Christ, and when and if God credits our faith as righteousness, God, alone, has mercy upon us and transfers us into Christ.

 

[Ben1445]

1) "In Adam all die" does not suggest or say "all sinned in Adam" Recall that the pre-born had done nothing good or bad.

Right.

2) Being "made sinners" does not suggest or say "all sinned in Adam." Recall that the pre-born had done nothing good or bad.

So either miscarriages are not people, and they most certainly are!, or there are perfect people in heaven who didn’t need a Saviour, or all are “made sinners” as Scripture says, in the likeness of Adam.

3) "For all have sinned" means everyone in Adam has suffered the consequence of sin, made sinners and condemned in unbelief.

Because everyone has sinned for themselves.

4) Agreed, the fallen are not guilty of Adam's sin, but the fallen have suffered the consequence of Adam's sin.

5) All people suffer the consequence of Adam's sin as all were made sinners.

Right.

6) Sin is sin, if you break on point, you have broken it all. The wages of sin is death.

Right.

7) Yes, people die, not because they committed volitional sin, knowing an action violated God's will, but death as a consequence of Adam's sin reigned from Adam to the present and will reign until the end of the age.

Death is passed upon all men because all have sinned, not because Adam sinned for them. But Adam was a sinner and the fruit mirrors the tree. Good fruit doesn’t come from corruption. So I think we are saying the same thing.

But Original Sin as a doctrine saying that I am guilty of what Adam did and need some kind of pre-atonement atonement is false doctrine.

 

[rsr]

Closed at the request of the OP.

 

[Salty]

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