Deadly free-will choices from the Garden until right now

[MennoSota]

Titus 3:4 But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind (not the "elect") appeared (about 2000 year ago), 5 He saved us (i.e., mankind), not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out upon us richly (where? in us. No!) in Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

"In Christ" we have already been justified by grace. This happened about 2000 years ago. Then God's Spirit is sent to "all men" to convince them that they are wretched sinners and in need of Christ the Savior of the world. Those who accept the gospel go from death to life. Those who reject the gospel will get eternal damnation.

Again, your verses present election and you can't even see it.

The work is entirely God's work.

Thanks for making the argument for election by sharing such great verses, which strengthen my position.

Again, I ask you where the phrase "accept Christ" is found in the Bible.

 

[AndThisGospel]

Again, your verses present election and you can't even see it.

Yes, election of mankind, not just MennoSota and a handful of others where God plays favorites!

Again, I ask you where the phrase "accept Christ" is found in the Bible.

John 316 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world (the human race), but that the world might be saved through Him. 18 He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.

 

[MennoSota]

Yes, election of mankind, not just MennoSota and a handful of others where God plays favorites!



John 316 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world (the human race), but that the world might be saved through Him. 18 He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.

So, you are a Universalist. Everyone is saved. No one goes to hell.
If God elects mankind then all must be saved. If God elects all, but some go to hell, then God is weak because He fails to keep his elect from perishing, even though He promised that none would perish.

Thank you for quoting from John 3. It is an excellent passage in regard to God's election of His saints.

 

[MennoSota]

http://www.ligonier.org/blog/mans-ability-choose-god/

 

[utilyan]

Show me where the phrase "accept Christ" is found in the Bible.

What is funny is that you are arguing for election and you think you aren't.

What is funny is that you can only possibly be arguing with GOD and you think I never chose to type my words here.

Just the fact your Idea of God lacks the capacity to make anything with free will means that by default it seems you think God is dumber then I think.

Too accept your idea of God is to insult him on being stupid. As in yeah your right God is too STUPID to work out his sovereignty unless he can manipulate all the strings.


I believe God can beat you in a game of poker......even if you deal him one card.

While it would seem you think the ONLY way God can win is out right cheat by picking out a losers hand to you and a winner's hand to himself.

And if he does CHEAT we best give the blind eye after all there is a gun in his hand and its on his whim who gets damned or not.

Of course we were dead first. Then God made us alive.

Were dead comes before made alive. It's quite simple and very elegantly explained in the text.

You're working awfully hard to make a pretzel.

The text says that God has to gift you faith. Faith comes after you are made alive.

1 = Dead
2 = Made alive by God
3 = God gifts the person with faith

That's the order described in Ephesians 2:1-10.

Dead before alive......ok....

Lets review the birth count.

I counted one birth. Are you once born or born again?

 

[Revmitchell]

You skipped right to Christians and their relationship with God within the New Covenant. You ignored the truth that dead people, lost in sin, have no freedom to choose God's redemption. Dead persons cannot choose until they are made alive. Who is it that makes us alive in Christ Jesus? Please read Ephesians 2:1-10 and get back to us with the answer.

Dead persons cannot choose until the Holy Ghost opens their heart. Are they fully made alive to the point of regneration? Nope regeneration and salvation are one and the same. Does God have to go so far as to make them fully alive before his Spirit can speak to them and the dead then choose to go one direction or another? In other words can God reach into the heart of a spiritually dead man and speak to him in a way that allows him a choice to believe or not to believe or is God forced by His limitations to make this man fully regenerated in order to save him?

My God can do it however He wants to. He has chosen to open men's hearts up with the gospel and to allow men to choose one way or another through the cognitive abilities God has given him. My God is a big God.

 

[MennoSota]

Dead persons cannot choose until the Holy Ghost opens their heart. Are they fully made alive to the point of regneration? Nope regeneration and salvation are one and the same. Does God have to go so far as to make them fully alive before his Spirit can speak to them and the dead then choose to go one direction or another? In other words can God reach into the heart of a spiritually dead man and speak to him in a way that allows him a choice to believe or not to believe or is God forced by His limitations to make this man fully regenerated in order to save him?

My God can do it however He wants to. He has chosen to open men's hearts up with the gospel and to allow men to choose one way or another through the cognitive abilities God has given him. My God is a big God.

It's just not taught that way in the Bible, rev.
There is no "partial" aliveness. We are either dead or alive. Lazerus was fully dead until Jesus call Lazerus name and made Lazerus alive. We are fully spiritually dead until God calls our name. We aren't "mostly dead" to quote the Princess Bride.

Given the choice, we will run and hide from God, just like Adam and Eve in the garden. That is our choice...our only choice. It takes God's work of grace and His alone. Why? Because in any other fashion we get to boast about our choice. God showed that the law does not save. Choosing God leads to catastrophic failure. Read the last chapter of Joshua. Joshua tells the people that they cannot honor the choice they are claiming to make.
No, salvation is always God's gift of redemption to those whom He chooses to give the gift.

 

[MennoSota]

What is funny is that you can only possibly be arguing with GOD and you think I never chose to type my words here.

Just the fact your Idea of God lacks the capacity to make anything with free will means that by default it seems you think God is dumber then I think.

Too accept your idea of God is to insult him on being stupid. As in yeah your right God is too STUPID to work out his sovereignty unless he can manipulate all the strings.


I believe God can beat you in a game of poker......even if you deal him one card.

While it would seem you think the ONLY way God can win is out right cheat by picking out a losers hand to you and a winner's hand to himself.

And if he does CHEAT we best give the blind eye after all there is a gun in his hand and its on his whim who gets damned or not.





Dead before alive......ok....

Lets review the birth count.

I counted one birth. Are you once born or born again?

First, you cannot show one instance where the term "accept Christ" is used in the Bible.

I can point to over a dozen verses where the Bible says we are chosen. I can show you in the Bible where God says we are predestined.

You are struggling to grasp the difference between choosing the clothes you wear and choosing the God you will have save you. The first you can do. The second would constitute an amazing arrogance on your part to proudly walk around clucking about how you, by your amazing intellect, chose the correct God and then forced him to redeem your get out of hell coupon. In your scenario, you are the god and Jesus is your puppet whom you manipulate with your choice strings. You make God weak and yourself strong. You do this knowing full well that the Bible repeatedly tells you that God chose you...not the other way around.
When it comes to biblical support, my position is on solid rock.

 

[Samuels]

So yes, the sinner can chose Christ.

I see MANY NT verses which say fallen man in NOT capable of ...
choosing to follow after God, especially believe in Jesus and His Gospel Truth.
(But then, we have multitudes who think they are following God, i.e. Muslims).

I also see NT verses which say that God must give man ...
the spark of faith necessary to believe in Jesus and His Gospel Truth.

I.E. I do not believe that man has the free-will choice to switch from death to life.
I believe that God's elect (chosen ones) must be chosen of God to receive the necessary faith.
However, there are many dozens of NT passages which warn believers that ...
they can LOSE (via various ways) what they have GAINED (though God's free gift of grace)!

 

[utilyan]

First, you cannot show one instance where the term "accept Christ" is used in the Bible.

I can point to over a dozen verses where the Bible says we are chosen. I can show you in the Bible where God says we are predestined.

You are struggling to grasp the difference between choosing the clothes you wear and choosing the God you will have save you. The first you can do. The second would constitute an amazing arrogance on your part to proudly walk around clucking about how you, by your amazing intellect, chose the correct God and then forced him to redeem your get out of hell coupon. In your scenario, you are the god and Jesus is your puppet whom you manipulate with your choice strings. You make God weak and yourself strong. You do this knowing full well that the Bible repeatedly tells you that God chose you...not the other way around.
When it comes to biblical support, my position is on solid rock.

Well I never brought up "Accept Christ" but if it floats your boat:

Your kidding me right? Notice Mary says yes.

Luke 1

31“And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall name Him Jesus. 32“He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David; 33and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end.” 34Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I am a virgin?” 35The angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God. 36“And behold, even your relative Elizabeth has also conceived a son in her old age; and she who was called barren is now in her sixth month. 37“For nothing will be impossible with God.” 38And Mary said, “Behold, the bondslave of the Lord; may it be done to me according to your word.” And the angel departed from her.




Matthew 10

32“Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father who is in heaven. 33“But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven.

Romans 10

9that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Luke 12

8“And I say to you, everyone who confesses Me before men, the Son of Man will confess him also before the angels of God; 9but he who denies Me before men will be denied before the angels of God.

Acts 16

27When the jailer awoke and saw the prison doors opened, he drew his sword and was about to kill himself, supposing that the prisoners had escaped. 28But Paul cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Do not harm yourself, for we are all here!” 29And he called for lights and rushed in, and trembling with fear he fell down before Paul and Silas, 30and after he brought them out, he said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
31They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.” 32And they spoke the word of the Lord to him together with all who were in his house. 33And he took them that very hour of the night and washed their wounds, and immediately he was baptized, he and all his household. 34And he brought them into his house and set food before them, and rejoiced greatly, having believed in God with his whole household.

"You are struggling to grasp the difference between choosing the clothes you wear and choosing the God you will have save you."

I don't do the command of God for salvation, I'm catholic we do what he says for free.

God can guarantee I go to hell, And I would gladly just to show you how Christianity is actually done.

Love, Kindness and Compassion are the highest priorities. We are not to be swayed by fear.



"The second would constitute an amazing arrogance on your part to proudly walk around clucking about how you, by your amazing intellect, chose the correct God and then forced him to redeem your get out of hell coupon."

No see, your talking to a differ type of soul today. If there are two building one with a good party going on and another that is on fire with people screaming. This one runs towards the fire.

If everyone on earth went to heaven and only you went to hell, I would be in hell looking for you.



" In your scenario, you are the god and Jesus is your puppet whom you manipulate with your choice strings. You make God weak and yourself strong. You do this knowing full well that the Bible repeatedly tells you that God chose you...not the other way around."


Matthew 6

9“Pray, then, in this way:
‘Our Father who is in heaven,
Hallowed be Your name.

10‘Your kingdom come.
Your will be done,
On earth as it is in heaven.
11‘Give us this day our daily bread.
12‘And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.
13‘And do not lead us into temptation, but deliver us from evil.

That right there is what we call a prayer, you should try it sometime. Of course it would be useless if I believed what you believed because after all everything that will happen is set in stone along with our elect standings.

I would agree with you WHOLE HEARTEDLY if I thought God was a idiot. I could understand If God was really that dumb he could certainty do things your way.

I would have to agree to a SIN and believe God is a moron. Too Ignorant to create things with free will. Such a horrible teacher can't teach anyone to be good.


Well in your scenario I'm the puppet and God and Jesus manipulate my choice. God is strong I am nothing.

So obviously God is here now says your wrong through me.

God says your wrong.



So your born once. When will you get born again?

 

[AndThisGospel]

So, you are a Universalist. Everyone is saved. No one goes to hell.

How many times do I have to repeat myself? It is really getting old. Please pay attention. Take of your preconceived glasses.

Christ, by His doing & dying, universally saved all men from the curse of the law in Himself. That work is a finished work....

The problem is that "all men" will not accept, by faith, what Christ has already done. These will suffer the curse of the law, the 2nd death.

 

[AndThisGospel]

Dead persons cannot choose until the Holy Ghost opens their heart..

Spiritually dead, not dead....We are born knowing only self-love. Therefore we are incapable of doing genuine good works. All we do without Christ is polluted with selfishness and self-seeking.

God's Spirit brings light to "all men". He convicts them of sin so they might see their need of a Savior. Those who accept the light believe in Christ. Those who don't chose darkness. It's free-will, not the heresy of Calvinism.

 

[AndThisGospel]

No, salvation is always God's gift of redemption to those whom He chooses to give the gift.

There you go again with this heresy...

 

[MennoSota]

Well I never brought up "Accept Christ" but if it floats your boat:

Your kidding me right? Notice Mary says yes.

Luke 1

31“And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall name Him Jesus. 32“He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David; 33and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end.” 34Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I am a virgin?” 35The angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God. 36“And behold, even your relative Elizabeth has also conceived a son in her old age; and she who was called barren is now in her sixth month. 37“For nothing will be impossible with God.” 38And Mary said, “Behold, the bondslave of the Lord; may it be done to me according to your word.” And the angel departed from her.




Matthew 10

32“Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father who is in heaven. 33“But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven.

Romans 10

9that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Luke 12

8“And I say to you, everyone who confesses Me before men, the Son of Man will confess him also before the angels of God; 9but he who denies Me before men will be denied before the angels of God.

Acts 16

27When the jailer awoke and saw the prison doors opened, he drew his sword and was about to kill himself, supposing that the prisoners had escaped. 28But Paul cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Do not harm yourself, for we are all here!” 29And he called for lights and rushed in, and trembling with fear he fell down before Paul and Silas, 30and after he brought them out, he said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
31They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.” 32And they spoke the word of the Lord to him together with all who were in his house. 33And he took them that very hour of the night and washed their wounds, and immediately he was baptized, he and all his household. 34And he brought them into his house and set food before them, and rejoiced greatly, having believed in God with his whole household.

"You are struggling to grasp the difference between choosing the clothes you wear and choosing the God you will have save you."

I don't do the command of God for salvation, I'm catholic we do what he says for free.

God can guarantee I go to hell, And I would gladly just to show you how Christianity is actually done.

Love, Kindness and Compassion are the highest priorities. We are not to be swayed by fear.



"The second would constitute an amazing arrogance on your part to proudly walk around clucking about how you, by your amazing intellect, chose the correct God and then forced him to redeem your get out of hell coupon."

No see, your talking to a differ type of soul today. If there are two building one with a good party going on and another that is on fire with people screaming. This one runs towards the fire.

If everyone on earth went to heaven and only you went to hell, I would be in hell looking for you.



" In your scenario, you are the god and Jesus is your puppet whom you manipulate with your choice strings. You make God weak and yourself strong. You do this knowing full well that the Bible repeatedly tells you that God chose you...not the other way around."


Matthew 6

9“Pray, then, in this way:
‘Our Father who is in heaven,
Hallowed be Your name.

10‘Your kingdom come.
Your will be done,
On earth as it is in heaven.
11‘Give us this day our daily bread.
12‘And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.
13‘And do not lead us into temptation, but deliver us from evil.

That right there is what we call a prayer, you should try it sometime. Of course it would be useless if I believed what you believed because after all everything that will happen is set in stone along with our elect standings.

I would agree with you WHOLE HEARTEDLY if I thought God was a idiot. I could understand If God was really that dumb he could certainty do things your way.

I would have to agree to a SIN and believe God is a moron. Too Ignorant to create things with free will. Such a horrible teacher can't teach anyone to be good.


Well in your scenario I'm the puppet and God and Jesus manipulate my choice. God is strong I am nothing.

So obviously God is here now says your wrong through me.

God says your wrong.



So your born once. When will you get born again?

It helps to know you are a Roman Catholic.
I would point you to St Augustine who understood God's election and thoroughly dismantled Pelagius "free will" argument so much that the Roman church declared Pelagius a heretic.

In regard to the verses you quote, only Romans 10 is in regard to salvation. The others are out of context. As for Romans 10, you should let Romans 9 guide your understanding as to who will and will not believe. Just saying a prayer of salvation as though it were a magic incantation is really poor exegesis and a biblically inaccurate presentation of grace.

As for the rest of your comments, it is clear you are mad at God for making you subject to His sovereign authority over your life. That is an issue between you and God, not between you and me.

 

[Yeshua1]

Ephesians 2:1
"You were dead"
Those elect of God were once dead in their sins.

Ephesians 2:5
"But, God made you alive in Christ"
Our standing before God is only in Christ alone.
We obey God, not to be saved, but because we love the God who saved us by grace.
If salvation could come by the law then there would have been no need for Jesus sacrifice.

We are Gods workmanship in Christ Jesus, saved to now walk in those good works prepared beforehand by God to have us do!

 

[Yeshua1]

There you go again with this heresy...

God chooses to save some, not all, by theCross of Christ!

 

[Yeshua1]

It helps to know you are a Roman Catholic.
I would point you to St Augustine who understood God's election and thoroughly dismantled Pelagius "free will" argument so much that the Roman church declared Pelagius a heretic.

In regard to the verses you quote, only Romans 10 is in regard to salvation. The others are out of context. As for Romans 10, you should let Romans 9 guide your understanding as to who will and will not believe. Just saying a prayer of salvation as though it were a magic incantation is really poor exegesis and a biblically inaccurate presentation of grace.

As for the rest of your comments, it is clear you are mad at God for making you subject to His sovereign authority over your life. That is an issue between you and God, not between you and me.

The church of Rome has another false/gospel !

 

[MennoSota]

How many times do I have to repeat myself? It is really getting old. Please pay attention. Take of your preconceived glasses.

Christ, by His doing & dying, universally saved all men from the curse of the law in Himself. That work is a finished work....

The problem is that "all men" will not accept, by faith, what Christ has already done. These will suffer the curse of the law, the 2nd death.

You are calling God weak. The Bible tells us that God will not let his sheep perish. If all are redeemed then none shall perish.
Jesus says that all whom the Father gives him will never be cast out.

The Bible opposes your opinion.

You are teaching a Pelagian doctrine, which the church has rejected as heresy.

 

[MennoSota]

Spiritually dead, not dead....We are born knowing only self-love. Therefore we are incapable of doing genuine good works. All we do without Christ is polluted with selfishness and self-seeking.

God's Spirit brings light to "all men". He convicts them of sin so they might see their need of a Savior. Those who accept the light believe in Christ. Those who don't chose darkness. It's free-will, not the heresy of Calvinism.

Your statement is good until you get to the phrase "Those who accept the light..."

Such teaching is not found in the Bible. You are making up a doctrine that is not from God.
Again, show us in scripture where the phrase "accept Christ" is written.

 

[Yeshua1]

Yes, election of mankind, not just MennoSota and a handful of others where God plays favorites!



John 316 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world (the human race), but that the world might be saved through Him. 18 He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.

God did NOT elect all of Makind, as Robb Bell and Karl barth held to that, but not the Bible!