Death Penalty??

[Candide]

I combined all the recent posts into one.

Has anybody but me ever noticed that those who are against the death penalty are usually FOR murder of the innocent unborn (generally speaking)?

Irrelevant. What happened to not basing our actions on what others do? I could easily counter this with, "Has anybody but me ever noticed that those who generally support the death penalty are usually found in barbaric nations based on Islamic law?" If you respond with, "Well, that's irrelevant!" then so to is the above comment by you.

And how the 10 commandments (red herring) is usually thrown in to justify against the death penalty about thou shalt not kill, but conveniently overlook the fact that "kill" in the 10C pertains to murder (there IS a difference)?

Again, irrelevant.

And since when do we care what Europe does? Oh, that's right, when the Supreme Court justices recently decided to look at popular opinion, polls, and European views when ruling on US Constitutionality!

I just think it's telling that every 1st world nation has abolished the system except 2: the US and Japan. And I suppose Japan is doing it to maintain Old Testament traditions?

By the laws of sinful man, yes. But God's laws NEVER change. Read the OT to see what God said about murder and other crimes. It is the commandments of God that we should follow and as I see it, death for murder is one of them. How many of the loved ones left, feel this way?

They don't? So you support a return to a Monarchy? You support a reinstitution of Slavery? You support maiming people for stealing? I suppose you eat Kosher? I am reminded of the story of the woman who was about to be stoned in the New Testament. Perhaps you've heard of this one fellow, his name is Jesus. He said, "He who is without sin cast the first stone." Pesky fellow.

About how many of the loved ones of the victims feel this way. That is irrelevant. I'm sure there are victims of robbery that feel we should execute the criminals. I'm sure there are victims of attempted murder that feel we should execute the criminals. Do we?

The death penalty was instituted by God before there were any Israelites.

Ah, fair enough. Future Israelites then.

Suppose a man seized a person and locked his victim in a room, then is caught, convicted, and imprisoned. Would you say "imprisoning people who imprison people is wrong [and] solves nothing"?

No, locking him up solves everything. The purpose of jail is to keep dangerous people out of the mainstream. The purpose of the death penalty is to enact blind revenge.

On the other hand, how many innocent, law abiding citizens' lives are you willing to put at risk for the sake of saving one innocent person from the gallows?

Luckily we don't have to make that decision. That's why in our system there's something called "Life without parole."

[ July 25, 2002, 10:16 AM: Message edited by: Candide ]

 

[The Galatian]

On the other hand, how many innocent, law abiding citizens' lives are you willing to put at risk for the sake of saving one innocent person from the gallows?

Luckily we don't have to make that decision.

Unfortunately, we do. A surprising number of people in Texas were condemned to death, and later fortunate circumstances cleared them of the crime. Illinois apparently had such a number the governor suspended executions until it could all be sorted out. And these are just the ones we know about. It would be very naive to say that luck always intervened to save the innocent.

That's why in our system there's something called "Life without parole."

If only we could always be sure. We can't always, and a good percent of the time, juries can be persuaded of a "certainty" that isn't true.

 

[Candide]

Unfortunately, we do. A surprising number of people in Texas were condemned to death, and later fortunate circumstances cleared them of the crime. Illinois apparently had such a number the governor suspended executions until it could all be sorted out. And these are just the ones we know about. It would be very naive to say that luck always intervened to save the innocent.

No, no. You misunderstood what I was saying. I know luck doesn't always intervene to save the innocent. In fact, I'm quite sure that innocent have been executed in this country. "Luckily, we don't have to make that decision" is in response to "On the other hand, how many innocent, law abiding citizens' lives are you willing to put at risk for the sake of saving one innocent person from the gallows?" Whomever said that was implying that if we don't support state sanctioned killing, the murderers will go free and endanger more people.

 

[Candide]

If only we could always be sure. We can't always, and a good percent of the time, juries can be persuaded of a "certainty" that isn't true.

I agree with you. Innocent people get found guilty and guilty people get found innocent. The flaws in the system are more than enough reason to remove the death penalty. There is no turning back from death.

 

[Multimom]

I have enjoyed and appreciated all the comments. Lets take this another direction. I'm not certain of the cost of an execution, however, in the state of Texas is costs an average of $20,000 per prisoner per year to keep them incarcerated.

And little Samantha Runnion doesn't have the chance for appeal. She doesn't have the opportunity to sit even in a jail cell, let alone 1st grade and talk to lawyers and appellate judges to see if her fate can be changed. Her fate was sealed by a man who saw her as something to be used, wounded, killed, and abandoned for the varmints to feast on.

If Avila is convicted I believe the average stay on death row is from 10 to 15 years so lets use the maximum and calculate $20,000 x 15 years is 300,000 of our tax money to feed clothe and probably pay for legal counsel. Personally, if the evidence is overwhelming (in other words absolutely no reasonable doubt by the law, not the OPINION of a jury) then execute them swiftly and effectively.

Samantha Runnion doesn't have the chance to finish 1st grade, she will never date, never drive a car, never marry, never bear her own sweet children, she won't ever be able to care for an aging parent, or even provide her family with the simple joy of raising her, she will never share the secrets of being a teenage girl with the little friend who helped bring her abductor to justice and the lives of those families will be forever changed for the worse. The loss of a child never lessens and certainly the loss of Samantha Runnion will impact our nation for a long time.

When the little Smith girl (age 12) was kidnapped in (I believe Alvin) her body was found later decapitated in a ravine. No one was ever brought to justice. When the League City killings occured back in the early 70's (6 known victims) no one was ever caught and every once in awhile another girl disappears. Jessica Cain disappeared about 3 years ago and was never seen or heard from again. That area of I-45 just south of Houston is a dangerous place to be a young woman.

Avila didn't just act on a whim, people like that are perfecting a technique which makes them ever more difficult to identify and catch.

If the DNA evidence identifys him as the rapist and murderer, there should be no appeal process and no lengthy stay on death row courtesy of the California people. My opinion, mean as it may seem ,is take him out and take him out quickly.

I understand those of you who grapple with the idea of the death penalty but I wonder would your opinion change if Samantha Runnion had been your daughter?

 

[Justified]

Can,

LOVE, LOVE, LOVE, LOVE, LOVE, LOVE, us to death!

It has been proven that these people, murderers, molesters, rapist, and others of the same nature, are not able to be rehabilitated.

From what I find in the Bible, there is a good chance that these people are Demon possessed, and have been given over to a reprobate mind.

So, now according to you, they are put into prison and influencing other prisoners that are up for parole. Very interesting situation, not to mention a very dangerous one at that. It is a very well known fact that prisoners are especially prone to peer pressure.

Now we have a new breed of WHAT on the streets?

 

[Candide]

If the DNA evidence identifys him as the rapist and murderer, there should be no appeal process and no lengthy stay on death row courtesy of the California people. My opinion, mean as it may seem ,is take him out and take him out quickly.

I understand those of you who grapple with the idea of the death penalty but I wonder would your opinion change if Samantha Runnion had been your daughter?

Do you not see a danger in removing the appeals process? Who determines what cases are deserving of appeals and which aren't? That's a dangerous slippery slope.

With the appeals process, it actually costs more to execute a prison than to keep them in prison for life. I am quite frankly scared by anyone that wants to lessen the appeals process, seeing as how many have been found innocent in their last days. Without the appeals process as it is, those prisoners would most certainly have been executed.

While DNA evidence is very helpful and near perfect, it has been misleading in times past. While I agree that DNA evidence provides strong support for guilty by preponderance of the evidence, I don't believe there's anyway to be 100% certain of a person's guilt.

If she was my daughter? I'd be initially angry no doubt, perhaps even demanding revenge. But I'd like to think that as time progressed, I'd be able to rise above such desires and be better than the people I so hate. There have been family members who did not support the death penalty in the past. And again, if we base our decisions on what the victim's families want, what's to stop us from killing robbers, attempted murderers, or those found guilty of manslaughter? The families desires for revenge should not be the determining factor.

 

[Candide]

It has been proven that these people, murderers, molesters, rapist, and others of the same nature, are not able to be rehabilitated.

No such thing has ever been proven. If it were, then why is it that MOST murderers get out of prison eventually? Our system has degrees of murder. Murder in the 1st Degree is a Capital offense. Murder in the 2nd Degree, Manslaughter in the 1st, Manslaughter in the 2nd, etc. etc. People do get rehabilitated, and there are many programs out there that prisoners voluntarily get into to prevent troubled youth from getting into trouble. Scared Straight is probably the most famous. If one is found guilty of 1st Degree Murder, I am not suggesting that person should be freed. They should spend the rest of their life in jail unless they are later found innocent. See, that's the big difference between Capital punishment and life in jail. Mistakes can always be corrected in the second instance. For capital punishment, the deed is permanent.

From what I find in the Bible, there is a good chance that these people are Demon possessed, and have been given over to a reprobate mind.

back to you. Have not those that are "demon possessed" been cured in the Bible?

So, now according to you, they are put into prison and influencing other prisoners that are up for parole. Very interesting situation, not to mention a very dangerous one at that.

All the studies of these programs suggest otherwise. The people in these programs usually DO NOT go back to jail.

It is a very well known fact that prisoners are especially prone to peer pressure.

Exactly. These programs shows them what hard time is like.

Now we have a new breed of WHAT on the streets?

Reformed youth.

 

[Mike McK]

Originally posted by Candide:
Whomever said that was implying that if we don't support state sanctioned killing, the murderers will go free and endanger more people.

That's not what I was saying at all. I don't put words in your mouth. Please show me the same courtesy.

 

[Justified]

Can,

I have talked to Prison Gaurds, Doctors, Attornies, and families of people who have been the victims of these murderers, molesters, and they all said the same thing... They are beyong rehabilitation.

As a matter of fact, I personally know a family that had 2 of their daughters molested by a so call rehabilitated pervert, that was caught 10 years before, went through 3 years of counciling,
and let go. He is now spending life in prison without parole.

This guy who I had met, even claimed to accept Jesus Christ as his Savior, which they have found and proved that people like this will make these kinds of claims for several reasons. 1) To gain confidence of the family. 2) To get a lighter sentence. 3) To get out of prison, and/or the death penalty.

But, because of libereal views and feelings, of LOVE, LOVE, LOVE, despite what God's Word says about these kinds of people, one pervert was spared the DEATH PENALTY at the expense of those 2 girls, the family, friends, and also the further humilation this pervert has brought to his family and friends. Who we also knew.

And now that family, those girls, and the rest of us, including you, will be paying with our tax money to keep this pervert in a luxery hotel, the rest of his life.

[ July 26, 2002, 09:20 PM: Message edited by: Justified ]

 

[Morat]

Now stop playing games with the facts! You are killing your credibility.

How, exactly, did I kill my credibility? I agree that Bush lacked the power to pardon people, and noted that, as Governer, merely recommending a pardon usually gets it.

I fail to see anything wrong, incorrect, deceptive, or in any way "killing my credibility" in that statement.

Justified:

But, because of libereal views and feelings, of LOVE, LOVE, LOVE, despite what God's Word says about these kinds of people, one pervert was spared the DEATH PENALTY at the expense of those 2 girls, the family, friends, and also the further humilation this pervert has brought to his family and friends. Who we also knew.

I suppose that makes Jesus a liberal.

 

[kathy56]

Originally posted by The Galatian:
Originally posted by The Galatian:
You may be pleased to learn, then, that minorities in Texas public schools have once more narrowed the gap between them and Anglo students. The reforms begun by Ross Perot have worked very well to get the state from dismal to mediocre. It's time to move on and raise the bar again.

Sorry, but what rock are you living under down here in Texas. All the upper class white people that could have moved to the the suburbs. All that is left in the cities are the lower class whites (who can't afford to move) or sections that are predominatly white leaving the rest to be mixed African American and Mexican.

Yea, the gap has narrowed - most of the Anglo students have moved bringing their ratio. Ross Perot had nothing to do with that Dallas was under a 10 year order of Federal Court busing. Do you know what that did - HMMM - Changed the whole complexion of that school system.

Sorry, it just struck me as strange that someone would say the problem was solved when in essence it has just been moved.

 

[kathy56]

Not sure what this topic has to do with Bush but I think the guy who killed the kid should be but to death.

It appears that the police said he placed the body where she would easily be found and was not afraid of being caught. Evidently by the way she was taken and this factor he does not mind taking risks. He was also tried but not convicted in some type of child molestations cases before. He is a huge risk to kids and he has slipped over the line now. If CA doesn't want to exectue him then I think that they must guarantee that he will never leave the state of CA.

That way he will only be able to kill and molest the children in CA. Don't set the man free in 20 years to leave your state to come to our state to get one of our kids. We don't do that to you!

I noticed you guys had been talking about the lady in Texas who "Supposedly" became a Christian before she was put to death. HMMMM! People do a lot of things when facing death. I hope her conversion was geniune for her sake but it doesn't mean she still isn't a killer. She lived many more years after the people she killed becuae the appeals process is so long. Nobody ever talks about the VICTIMS anymore. If is always about the poor brutal KILLERS. Somehow, I just don't understand that.

Murderers should be executed: (Leviticus 24:17,21-22). I think God is a true and just God and we should abide by his judgement. Everbody has no problem when you ask them if you obey God's commandments and they think: Thou shalt not steal; Thou shalt not commit adultery - but when it comes to this one we seem to get squeamish. God gave it to us for a reason. To protect us from those who would do and continue to do evil and harm us.

God Bless!
Kathy

 

[The Galatian]

Galatain points out some good news:
You may be pleased to learn, then, that minorities in Texas public schools have once more narrowed the gap between them and Anglo students. The reforms begun by Ross Perot have worked very well to get the state from dismal to mediocre. It's time to move on and raise the bar again.

Sorry, but what rock are you living under down here in Texas.

It's very true. Check the latest TAAS results. All the kids in the state take the same tests in TAAS, and minorities are catching up to their Anglo peers. That's great news, because Texas lagged there in past years.

All the upper class white people that could have moved to the the suburbs. All that is left in the cities are the lower class whites (who can't afford to move) or sections that are predominatly white leaving the rest to be mixed African American and Mexican.

You can't run from the TAAS test, though. All public school students in the state have to take it, and it's a very good index of how we're doing as a state.

Yea, the gap has narrowed - most of the Anglo students have moved bringing their ratio.

I think I know what you're trying to say, but no, you can't move to another district to avoid the TAAS. It's statewide. As you may know, the TAAS has been upgraded to the TEKS, which is going to be a lot harder to pass. TAAS was useful when education in Texas was dismal. Now that we've raised it to mediocre, it's time to raise the bar, too.

Ross Perot had nothing to do with that Dallas was under a 10 year order of Federal Court busing.

But Ross did institute school reforms that made a difference. No pass, no play. Coaches howled that kids would drop out if they had to pass their classes. What happened was Bubba wanted to play football so bad, he'd even study, if he had to. More kids were passing. And coaches suddenly became concerned about education. I don't care for Ross much, but I have to give him credit on this one.

Do you know what that did - HMMM - Changed the whole complexion of that school system.

Nice pun. BTW, Dallas seems to be finally getting its act together. The reforms (again Ross's stuff) made it likely that the state would come in and take over Dallas schools if they didn't.

Sorry, it just struck me as strange that someone would say the problem was solved when in essence it has just been moved.

Well, if you'll read my post carefully again, you'll note that I didn't say it's been solved. We're making progress, but there's a lot left to do. But where kids move isn't part of it. BTW, since you seem to live in the Dallas area, you might notice that the reforms have had a very good effect on the Wilmer-Hutchins district. It's been deplorable for a long time, and now the TAAS scores are rising again, under state guidance.

[ July 25, 2002, 02:32 PM: Message edited by: The Galatian ]

 

[Justified]

Morat,

Do you think that LOVE is the only thing that Jesus was or portrayed?

Do you think that when HE was sacrificed, that all the things that He stood for and is, is a thing of the past dispensations. Now there is only the dispensation of LOVE?

For if this is the case, Jesus would then be a liberal, and that is "BLASPHEMOUS". For our God is the same yesterday, today, and forever! He is unchanging. For Jesus is Just, Righteous, and Holy, and did not hang them on a tree in the garden, before He was lead to the Cross.

 

[ChristianCynic]

No, locking him up solves everything. The purpose of jail is to keep dangerous people out of the mainstream. The purpose of the death penalty is to enact blind revenge.

If jail "keeps dangerous people out of the mainstream," the death penalty does it a whole heap better, bud.

 

[Baptist Believer]

Originally posted by Justified:
Do you think that LOVE is the only thing that Jesus was or portrayed?

Do you think that when HE was sacrificed, that all the things that He stood for and is, is a thing of the past dispensations. Now there is only the dispensation of LOVE?

For if this is the case, Jesus would then be a liberal, and that is "BLASPHEMOUS". For our God is the same yesterday, today, and forever! He is unchanging. For Jesus is Just, Righteous, and Holy, and did not hang them on a tree in the garden, before He was lead to the Cross.

This makes no sense.

Whether or not Jesus is a "liberal" (whatever that means) is irrelevant -- if He is a liberal, then we should be liberal too. Using your logic: If God does not change, then the New Testament revelation that "God is love" seriously undermines the point you are trying to make.

Who are you talking about when you say, "For Jesus is Just, Righteous, and Holy, and did not hang them on a tree in the garden"?

 

[Baptist Believer]

Originally posted by Morat:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />
Now stop playing games with the facts! You are killing your credibility.

How, exactly, did I kill my credibility? I agree that Bush lacked the power to pardon people, and noted that, as Governer, merely recommending a pardon usually gets it.

I fail to see anything wrong, incorrect, deceptive, or in any way "killing my credibility" in that statement.</font>[/QUOTE]You were criticizing Bush for not making an end run around the express intent of the legal code to use political influence to overturn a legal jury verdict. You wouldn't even admit that Bush was legally incapable of stopping the executions until I posted links to legal sources.

To me, that kills your integrity.

I support the death penalty in certain cases, but not for the same reason that many people here do... For me, it has little to do with Old Testament law. I don't think we should execute for adultery, homosexuality, blasphemy or many other crimes. I do think we as a society should have the option of executing criminals who commit violent rape and murder, especially when there are cruel and unusual circumstances involved.

I do not see any problems with the New Testament for execution.

To me, if one is consistent, a person who is opposed to the death penalty should also be a pacifist. In war, many innocent people are killed serving their country, doing their duty. To me, that is much worse than executing a convicted criminal. I don't mean to sound callous, but if by some chance innocent people are executed for crimes they did not commit, it is similar to those who die in the war against terror. A tragedy to be sure, but it should not deter our war on crime.

I have respect for people who disagree with me on the death penalty. It is a complicated issue, but I think the benefits outweigh the negatives.

My view of the death penalty was shaped by a crime committed in my home town back in the mid to late 1970s. A man (Joe Dugas) and and woman (Linda May Burnett) murdered an entire family, including an infant, and buried them in a shallow grave a few miles from my home. They were caught, convicted and sentenced to death. Joe Dugas was killed while trying to escape. Linda May Burnett ended up getting a new trial and is still living today in prison. In my opinion, she should not have the privilage of spending her days as a guest of the state. She should have died about 20 years ago. Joe Dugas was the cousin of a good friend of mine and Linda May Burnett was the mother of a girl in my school. (She also worked at the local doughnut shop and we talked to her at least once a week.)

The death penalty is all about saying as a society that life is important and those who take the lives of others forfeit their own right to live. In the process of the trials and final sentencing, they have the opportunity to get right with God, if they have not already hardened their heart so much that God has stopped dealing with them. They should be treated humanely and be offer religious counsel, but they must also have a date with the executioner. In some ways they are much more fortunate than the rest of us. They know when they are going to die and they have time to prepare. Their victims did not have that luxury.

 

[kathy56]

Originally posted by The Galatian:

You can't run from the TAAS test, though. All public school students in the state have to take it, and it's a very good index of how we're doing as a state.

Oh please, they literally teach the test in Texas!

I think I know what you're trying to say, but no, you can't move to another district to avoid the TAAS. It's statewide. As you may know, the TAAS has been upgraded to the TEKS, which is going to be a lot harder to pass. TAAS was useful when education in Texas was dismal. Now that we've raised it to mediocre, it's time to raise the bar, too.

And you think the coaches don't fudge - Football is KING IN TEXAS!!

But Ross did institute school reforms that made a difference. No pass, no play. Coaches howled that kids would drop out if they had to pass their classes. What happened was Bubba wanted to play football so bad, he'd even study, if he had to. More kids were passing. And coaches suddenly became concerned about education. I don't care for Ross much, but I have to give him credit on this one.

And they will teach that test too! About the Ross thing I thing you protest too much!!

BTW, Dallas seems to be finally getting its act together. The reforms (again Ross's stuff) made it likely that the state would come in and take over Dallas schools if they didn't.

For the kids sake I really hope so. That school district and its leadership has been a laughing stock to this area. They fight more than the kids. Once again your on your Ross train. Come on admit it your a closet Ross suppoter. It's okay - will love you anyway! Oopps! Have you not been able to even admit this to yourself yet!!

Well, if you'll read my post carefully again, you'll note that I didn't say it's been solved. We're making progress, but there's a lot left to do. But where kids move isn't part of it. BTW, since you seem to live in the Dallas area, you might notice that the reforms have had a very good effect on the Wilmer-Hutchins district. It's been deplorable for a long time, and now the TAAS scores are rising again, under state guidance.

Yes, but I live in Plano - it is a district that teaches all kinds of things other than that the test does Wilmer-Hutchins do that too?? I'm talking about K-5 not the upper level classes. Also, we are suffering under the "RobberyHood Plan" that is so unfair. But that is for another debate - right??? Hey, Jersey, are you reading this and are totally lost???????

Say this is not the thread for this and I see we are miles apart in our opinions so I'll close with the understanding that we disagree in what is going on here. For the kids sake I hope you are more right about the Dallas School District than I am!!

God Bless!
Kathy

[ July 25, 2002, 07:36 PM: Message edited by: kathy56 ]

 

[Justified]

Gal,

Are you suggesting that if they didn't bring their TAAS score up, that they were going to get the "DEATH PENALTY"?

Coming from you, I'm impressed, I would of never thought of that tactic!

I know that I sure would of studied harder!

You were talking about the Death Penalty? Weren't you?

That is what this thread is about.

[ July 25, 2002, 10:00 PM: Message edited by: Justified ]