death penalty?

Brother Bob,

But you still have a resounding problem.
You are still locking away the innocent, with murderous and melicious types that WILL rape, manhandle, and even kill them just for fun.

You are still doing a GREAT injustice by locking them away as well. Let us let them to free and let God sort it out. Kill who He will and allow the others who don't die to continue as the please with no consequences to worry about in doing their wrongs against others.

Capital punishment is not ment ONLY as a deterent, but as a consiquence to an action(s). The deterent is a secondary cause that does play work somewhat IF it would be used consistantly and not revoked by every weeping letter a civil authority recieves.

And Yes you killing someone with just cause is NO DIFFERENT than civil authorities killing with just cause. You could kill someone in your home who was forced to come in and steal or else his family would die. You do not know or could know what the real situation would be, except that at THAT MOMENT and with all the information before you - you make an educated (hopefully :tongue3: ) judgment call that will end the life of someone in your home. The civil authorities can do no less is all I am saying.

We can protect our home and family, and they protect their people and homes.

 

At least I wouldn't be taking away their chance to repent.

Strawman

 

Texas has the highest number of executions, and it also has the highest record of killings. Hardly a deterent, to be sure. Why can't a prison sentence and attempt at education be the retribution for breaking the law?

By the way, stoning killed last time I read about it.

Maybe it is time to do something in society to change the crime rate. Your free society just isn't working, any more than the tight society in China............and the execution rate is similar by percentages.

Thou shalt not kill is not an absolute...Read about all the killings in scripture. Didn't even David kill for his ow selfish reasons? Yet, David was a man after God's own heart. He did demonstrate his guilt, by the way, but he was not executed for his crime...and many more examples.

Brother Bob was the only one that actually read and understood my original post..Thank you, Brother Bob.

Cheers,

Jim

 

Knowing it was for the good of our community. I believe I could.

 

Life has enough heavy weights without carrying something like that on your shoulders for the rest of your life. Would you want anyone to know you had done it, like your children and wife?

 

Bob, I guess it would depend on what the person was guilty of. If he had molested and killed a bunch of children. I would not have a problem with it at all. Even though you are right, if someone else was going to do the same, they would do it most likely any way, but he would not again. I given my interpretation of the Scripture I gave you, I believe our government has that right. But of course they do not punish child molesters like that. But as far as what we talked about last night goes, I mean there is as much Scripture to justify capital punishment as there is to support killing someone that comes in on you to hurt your family, I mean someone could use the Scripture love your enemies to say that it was against the Bible to hurt the person.

 

Yea, I know. I mostly talking about what I could live with. Even if I had to protect my family and I would, it still would be a heavy load to carry the rest of my life I think.

I just don't see us having the right when Jesus said "thou shalt not kill".

 

I know what you mean. I have thought a lot about it. I know I would probably act as you say you would in such a case, but I would have the weight as well.

 

Down here, I would probably be viewed by most as a celebrity if I was the executioner.

Personally, I don't think I would have a problem carrying out a death sentence on a convicted murderer. All I would have to do is think of the victims of the crime and know that, had the murderer been dealt with prior to that event, those victims would still be alive.

This comes from someone who has seen an elderly family member murdered in his own home by someone he knew. This is from someone who watched his parents and his aunt and uncle "clean up" the crime scene after the police left.

I may have vengeance on my mind, but I am human, after all. Still, that does not change the fact that those who would willfully end the life of a person for no reason whatsoever do not deserve to continue their own lives.

If you execute one murderer, you are guaranteed that this murderer will never murder again. Put him in jail, and there always remains the possibility, however remote, that he might murder another prisoner, a guard, a prison doctor or minister, or he even may escape to murder a civilian.

If I had the ability to stop a murderer from ever having the possibility to murder again, achievable only through the death penalty, and he somehow, no matter who or how, he managed to murder someone else, that would be the ultimate weight that I would never be able to endure.

The man's spiritual condition is none of my business whatsoever. That is solely between him and God. If he murders a fellowcitizen, it then becomes my business and your business to see that it never happens again. The death penalty is the only way to make certain, with 100% certainty, that the murderer does not murder again.

Brother Bob, I'm sure you are heartfelt in your position on the death penalty, as is Jim. Those of us on this side are also just as heartfelt and we see it, not as killing someone just for the sake of killing, but for the sake of perhaps saving someone else from facing the same heartache that was faced by the family of the first victim. I know what that heartache is like, and it's not a great feeling. To prevent someone else from feeling the same, that is the ultimate goal of us who advocate the death penalty.

I must also point out that you never know for certain why someone breaks into your home. You do not know if they intend to harm you or your family. They may just be hungry and trying to steal some food or a t.v., yet you would not hesitate to use deadly force against them, as would I do the same. When this occurs, you are operating under the premise that they are in your home, committing at least one crime (breaking and entering), and possibly, demonstrable by their initial crime, pose a risk to your family or yourself. That is the same premise for our advocacy of the death penalty. A murderer has demonstrated that they have no qualms in committing a crime, and a truly heinous one at that, and quite frankly pose a risk to commit similar or equal crimes in the future. Therefore, we do not hesitate to seek their execution to prevent harm to innocent people, including other inmates.

Yes, we have high crime rates and such, but I believe that has more to do with our society as a whole than it has to do with our use of the death penalty. It would not seem to make much sense that our use of it actually increases the occurences of violent crimes. Why would someone commit such crimes with the forthought that they very well may be put in prison and executed?

Perhaps we are a society that has too many freedoms. I suppose when you get to either extreme, too many freedoms or not enough, it can lead to a breakdown in society.

Perhaps the reason we have so many minorities on death row and in prison is because our society has long told them that they are not to blame for their actions and now they actually believe it to be true. Why is it that most of us do not commit violent crimes and a few people, who are usually quite similar in appearance, or demeanor, or lifestyle, or background do?

Perhaps it is because we have for too long listened to national figures who tell us that we are the true murderers and we are the true villians, and those people in prison are the real victims and should take no blame.

Perhaps we should start educating all people at a young age that commission of crimes, especially violent ones, is never right. Perhaps if they saw the affects of violence, rather than the movie star image portrayed by certain "artists", who shall remain nameless, they would realize that being dead is not glamourous.

Frankly, I believe it would not be bad for young juvenile delinquents to be forced to view executions of murderers so they would know the road they are headed towards.

If the problem could be nipped in the bud, then murders and executions would drop, and we would all be a lot happier.

Until then, we stop future murders the best way we know how. If that makes us wrong and unChristian, as some like to claim, then may God have mercy on us for trying to save innocent lives.

As a side issue, one should never, ever say they would throw out scripture if it didn't fit their interpretation. I am not smart enough to claim that I know, without a doubt, that executions are still biblical and mandated by God, but I would never say that, if they were not, that I would throw away scripture. Some folks take a very cavalier stance when it comes to scripture. What we should do is take every scripture as truth, based on the faith that we supposedly have been given, and mold our own personal beliefs to fit scripture.

Jim, I sincerely hope that, in your current frame of mind, you never do find any scripture which advocates the death penalty. I would hate to see someone throw out all of their faith-based beliefs because their humanistic personal beliefs interfered. Do you judge every scripture based on how you "feel" about that issue? I surely hope not. Had you been a jew before Christ came, would you have thrown away scripture because it did indeed advocate the death penalty?

I am deeply concerned that any true believer could say that they would throw away God's word if it didn't conform to what they believe their ideal to be.

 

Actually, Governor Rick Perry spoke in a televised debate last Friday and stated that the next legislative session, he will be pushing for a law which will make child molestation a crime punishable by the death penalty in Texas.

I'm not sure I agree with him or not. I'm about 75% with him, but there's part of me that just can't quite commit all the way, at this point, to execute someone who didn't murder another. That view may change in the future, who knows.

I'm still not voting for him, although his stance on that issue should be enough to insure that he is re-elected Governor.

 

Brother Reed, with all respect, kindly read what I wrote and not what sme think I wrote. I explained why capital punishment is not in the New Testament. Even Jesus rejected it when he saved the prostitute from stoning (capital punishment under the law).

I know what I am saying when I say I would throw the scriptures away...In my opinion, that would be the ultimate contradiction of scripture and the Lord Himself.

Cheers,

Jim

 

You have a very strong feeling on this subject James. Maybe the strongest on here but I respectfully disagree with it.
Your way makes no allowances whatsoever for a person to "repent".
Neither does it make allowances for the many many time the courts have been wrong and judged the wrong person guilty of a crime he did not commit.
It has never been proven that "capitol punishment" is a determent to crime. People always think they are not the ones who will be caught.
I saw from the poll that I am in the minority but I feel much more comfortable being there. I must be honest, if I saw a Christian carry out the sentence of death on another human being I would be very concerned about that person for the rest of my life.
Everyone seems to want to go back to the OT to justify the death penalty but it seems to me on that very issue that Jesus said it was different now.
One thing for sure, God will be the ultimate judge of us all. I would have a hard time killing a person even protecting my family but know that I would do it if I had to.
What if the individual was ill. I mean the case with the Armish would bolster your beliefs strongly for who could in their right mind justify someone like that but that person had to be sick in the head.
I will say this, don't know much about the Armish but they sure earned the respect of this nation and the world by the way they handled this tragedy in their life.
I think that is why God said render unto Ceasar that which is Ceasar's and this to me belongs to Ceasar. Seems to me that this statement from Jesus told us there was a difference between the church and government. He said for us to judge that which is within. (within the church) I know if it all fell into our lap we would have to deal with it but thanks be to God, it is not in the church's lap right now. Thought about getting into politics a few times for for this very reason I never did for didn't think that was a place for a Preacher of the Lord and that means more to me than life itself.

 

By the way, why are you not all after the women who abort a fetus....? You say it is murder, and you are all for killing a murder.

What a chimera is man; What a contradiction.

Cheers,

Jim

 

I take it then that you would never actually throw away the scriptures.

I know that your opinion is that this is contradiction, but are we to live by our opinions or by scripture? If my opinion on something is proven wrong by scripture, then I have the responsibility to change my opinion, not toss out the scripture.

I know what you're saying brother, but, since I disagree about what scripture says, I just find it very disturbing to think that, if I had your frame of mind at some point before this, I would now be at the point to throw out scripture because it differs from my opinion.

I just think we need to be much more careful about saying "I'd throw out the scripture if..."

Did the life of an innocent become less precious to Christ that the life of a murderer? That's a hard question to answer. Perhaps we are to end the natural life of a murderer so that the innocents can remain safe. To keep a convicted murderer from killing another innocent, yes, I must say that I am in favor of ending their natural life. As I said, it is not our business what the spiritual condition of that person is. That is between that person and God. Because I believe in election, I do not worry about executing someone before they have a chance to let Christ in their heart. If they are a child of God, then Christ will be in their heart at some point. That is perhaps the reason I do not fret as much over executing a murderer as some of you do. I would guess that many of you anti-death penalty folks are worried about executing someone before they have a chance to accept Christ and be saved, thereby sending them to eternal damnation. I don't read the scriptures that way, so I have a peace that, whether the person is an executed murderer or the victim, if Christ died for them, they will be basking in the same glory at the end of their days.

I also, however, believe that we have a responsibility to stop murders from taking place. If that means executing a murderer, then so be it. I am not fretting over that person's spiritual state anymore than I am over the spiritual state of the victim or a member of my family. Like I said, what happens when their natural life ends has nothing whatsoever to do with me or anyone else here.

In the same token, I would have no difficulty executing Adolf Hitler, Osama bin Laden, or Yul Tracy Lee (the man who murdered my uncle's father). However, they may all three be children of God who were disobedient in this life and were given spiritual life shortly before their deaths or sooner, the latter two being yet not dead.

I do not and will not judge any man's eternal salvation, outside what scripture tells us.

Maybe this is why I do not feel as much guilt about ending a murderer's natural life.

 

Bro. Bob,

I certainly can not fault you for your view on this issue, and in the same token, I would ask that you cast a mantle of charity my way. May God give us the strength to endure the evils of this present world.

God bless you my brother.

James

PS I enjoyed the article you sent me. A lot of neat information.:thumbs:

 

James;
I tried to cast a mantle of charity but must of did a poor job of it. Sometimes I am too plain for my own good but mean well.
Thanks,

Also, Jim I think was just using a figure of speech of showing how much he was against the death penalty. He has spent his life serving the Lord and I am sure there have been many trials but He is still at the Helm. peace,

I pmed you to see how you liked the article but you must of not got it. Glad you could use it.

 

Jim,

I think there are several reasons:

1 - It is, as yet, not a crime to abort your baby, at least in early stages of development.

2 - Women are typically fed one sided information about what an abortion actually is and what a fetus actually is. It is made into a women's choice issue and body issue, rather than what it actually is; the right of a child, a separate being from the mother, to live.

3 - The general public, even so-called "pro-lifers", do not view this crime as heinous enough, typically because we don't see the results and/or because there is usually no outcry from the mother/family (for obvious reasons).

Were all 3 of these things to change, I believe you would see women, and doctors, on death row for committing murder on their unborn children.

Of course, it typically seems that mothers who kill their children, even those who are born, are pitied and put in prison or a hospital rather than executed. Frankly, it surprises me that, these women being as sick as they claim to be, do not kill themselves following the murders of their children. How can they live with it?

I don't think people are as contradictory on this issue as they are sure that general society objects to the idea. Such is not the case with the death penalty, in general.

Personally, at this juncture, I think a woman who has an abortion ought to be "fixed" so she can never have a child. If you are going to kill what God gives you, what gives you the right to ask for the same in the future?

Also, seeing that women who have abortions don't view the procedure as murder to begin with, I think it would be hard to convict them of such. Even today, people who donot realize that killing a person is wrong are called mentally ill and are immune from the death penalty, not that I agree with that notion either.

Boy, won't it be nice to be in heaven and not have to worry about such things?:love2:

 

So, when will I hear you call for the death penalty of at least one woman who aborts her fetus. Fundamentalists call it murder!

When will David be executed for his killing?

By the way, my reasoning does not include a "chance" to accept Christ...I too am a firm Calvinist.

I just want a consistent understanding of "thou shalt not kill", and the other scriptures that seem to say a "life for a life".

No one wants to answer these questions.

Cheers,

Jim

 

I think the reason many don't answer is because they are actually unsure about their beliefs regarding abortion, though they may vehemently say they oppose.

Really, I think there have been great answers given by others for the "thou shalt not kill" and the "life for a life", but we are obviously not going to always agree about everything in the bible. Just refer back to the old C & A forum to refresh your memory about that.:smilewinkgrin: Suffice it to say that I don't know that Christ, himself, in the flesh actually said, with spoken audible words, that the death penatly should be carried out, yet I don't see where he condemned the practice itself, especially for murder. On the other hand, we have innumerable passgaes in the OT where the death penalty was condoned, and commanded, for many offenses which most today would object to being capital crimes.

I don't know that I am right on this issue, but I try to do the best I can. Would we be held accountable by God if we execute someone for murder if He doesn't want us to continue the practice? Perhaps. Would we be held accountable by God if we don't execute someone for murder and they murder someone else? Perhaps. I do believe, however, that God is more forgiving of us in carrying out justice for the sake of the innocent than in carrying out justice for the sake of the guilty.

As for David, he very well could have and should have, according to his own law, been executed for murder.

We know that scripture is inerrant, therefore there must be a way to differentiate between "life for life" and "shalt not kill". I would think that many of us bring preconceived notions and personal experiences into the matter to determine if killing is okay in some instances or never.

I believe "thou shalt not kill" refers to the murder of an innocent.

FYI, I'm not a fundy...I'm a primitivy.:smilewinkgrin:

Abortion is an issue, like the death penalty, that is debatable based on scripture, although, I don't personally see a way around calling it the murder of an unborn child. That said, however, why does scripture not call for the death of one who kills the fetus of a pregnant woman? (see Exodus 21:22) I am uncertain.

 

No, he wasn't!!
:thumbsup:

As always, I trust that God is showering you and yours in His Blessings,
BiR