Debunking Unconditional Eternal Security: Hebrews 10:39

[DHK]

Anyone CAN sin, as in the free option is there. Everyone has sinned and this can be forgiven.

First, the point is not that everyone "can." Everyone does, and they can't help themselves. They will sin. There is nothing they can do about it. What does the Scripture say:

Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
--No one is excluded.

Jeremiah 13:23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.
--The Ethiopian cannot change the color of his skin; the leopard cannot change his spots, and you cannot stop your sinning. It is impossible.

Ecclesiastes 7:20 For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.
--Every one sins. They can't help it.
Now what makes you think that you are any different? Are you more righteous than everyone else in the world?

Secondly, How do you know God will forgive you? What is the basis of your belief? Does God just forgive anyone?
It is like this. If I drive 40 miles per hour over the speed limit and the police pull me over and question me. Why I was going so fast. No matter what I say, I have no excuse. I have broken the law. I have sinned. I must pay the penalty according to the law. But what if I say something like this: "Please forgive me according to your mercy. Have mercy. Don't give me this ticket. I have obeyed all your laws in the past: stopped at every stop light, kept the speed limit previously, etc. I will never do it again. I promise. Forgive me, I beg you. Have mercy.
What do you think the reaction that police officer would have? IMO, he would think you are crazy. He will not forgive you!! You have broken the law. You must pay the penalty.
God is the same way. You must pay the penalty for sin. He is just not going to forgive you because you ask forgiveness. There is a basis for forgiveness. As with our justice system there is someone who may pay your ticket for you. It is possible in God's sight for someone to pay the price of your crime for you. But you cannot go absolutely free. There is a price to be paid for your sin--all sin.

But everyone has the free option to never sin again.

No they don't. They are slaves to sin. They have a sin nature. They are like the Ethiopian and the leopard. They cannot change.

The difference between You and I, Darrell is when we both pray to God to keep us out of sin you don't have the faith nor belief that he really could.

Faith has nothing to do with it. You don't have the power to keep you out of sin. You sin every day and you know it. You simply need to confess it. The fact that you don't exposes your sin of arrogance and pride which are sins in themselves.

 

[Pastor_Bob]

The only loss is I would have some significantly lesser heavenly rewards or no rewards at all, but heaven I am not missing for nothing.

I have not taken the time to read all 140 replies; so, if I am restating something that has already been brought up, I apologize.

A loss of rewards is not all that a backslidden believer will suffer. There are actually several things he/she will lose:

• They will lose the joy of their salvation (Ps. 51:12).
• They will lose their testimony to and influence on others (Ps. 51:13).
  
• They will lose their ability to lead their family spiritually and may very well lose their children (Gen. 19:14).
• They will lose their spiritual perception (Judges 16:20).
  
• They will lose their ability to have their prayers heard (Ps. 66:18).
  
• They very well may lose their life prematurely (Heb. 10:26-29).

So, no, this is not an easy doctrine to which we hold. It is a very sobering doctrine that should cause the child of God to draw closer to God every day lest we grow cold and distant and begin to lose so much that we hold dear in this life.

 

[Darrell C]

Anyone CAN sin, as in the free option is there.

Sorry, Utilyan, you are not going to convince anyone you don't sin, lol.

While as I said we can choose to sin, one problem we are faced with as new believers is...

...we simply do not understand sin well enough not to sin.

Now here is a question for you: have you sinned since you were saved? Or have you been Pope Utilyan since salvation, without sin, and without need to confess sin before God or your fellow believer?

Answer that question for me.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

The difference between You and I, Darrell is when we both pray to God to keep us out of sin you don't have the faith nor belief that he really could.

Well, I will have faith that God has opened His Word to me, you have faith that you never sin, and we will see how that works out.

You are looking at Darrell asking can he stop sinning when you should look at Christ he says STOP SINNING.

I agree, however, that doesn't mean He expects me to be sinless.

Here is a verse to study:


James 5:16

King James Version (KJV)

16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.


Look at the link.


God bless.

 

[utilyan]

Sorry, Utilyan, you are not going to convince anyone you don't sin, lol.

While as I said we can choose to sin, one problem we are faced with as new believers is...

...we simply do not understand sin well enough not to sin.

Now here is a question for you: have you sinned since you were saved? Or have you been Pope Utilyan since salvation, without sin, and without need to confess sin before God or your fellow believer?

Answer that question for me.


God bless.

I've confessed.

Jesus tells for example in prayer "Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us". Ok we confess our sins, we ask God for forgiveness.

Then he says " And lead us not into temptation but deliver us from evil"

For me to jump on board with you requires me to sin and to expect God not to lead me away from temptation and not to defend me from sinning.

Imagine yourself at your pinnacle of FAITH, TRUST and CONFIDENCE in God. And with all your heart you pray "Lead us not into temptation but deliver us from evil".

The most Genuine Darrell is one with God in his heart. Its not the one we judge separate from God. Not the one we judge and scoff at , he can't go a day without sin let alone a week.

God loves you, you are a son. This isn't about you preventing yourself from sinning in a false sense, but in the truest sense depending on God alone.

So when you pray to God to protect you. Is it some kind of joke where in the back of your mind you suspect, well he isn't really going to protect me. Why not?

The problem is you start with an accusation as being independently separate from God. You are image of God, The core ingredient of your life is Jesus and the core ingredient of Darrell is God.

Darrell keeping Darrell out of trouble. I could agree if its this fake thing separate from God he's got no chance.

Its when you depend on God then I can say ok that's really him keeping himself out of trouble and he can do it forever, piece of cake.

 

[BobRyan]

I would prefer to believe in Unconditional Eternal Security. And I have no idea why anyone would not want to believe it. Once I put saving faith in Jesus Christ, nothing can change my eternal destiny. I can return to a life of wickedness,die in unrepentance,and I will still be saved in the end. I can even renounce my faith,die in unbelief and still enter God's kingdom.

There is the "false gospel" we have all heard so much about.

It does not survive Romans 11.
It does not survive Matt 18.
It does not survive Ezek 18.
It does not survive 1Cor 6
It does not survive Romans 2:11-16.
It does not survive 1 John 2:3-6.

So then this is one of those few times when I will have to agree with Vooks on something, since he rejects that one particular false doctrine.

 

[Darrell C]

I've confessed.

Jesus tells for example in prayer "Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us". Ok we confess our sins, we ask God for forgiveness.

Then he says " And lead us not into temptation but deliver us from evil"

For me to jump on board with you requires me to sin and to expect God not to lead me away from temptation and not to defend me from sinning.

Imagine yourself at your pinnacle of FAITH, TRUST and CONFIDENCE in God. And with all your heart you pray "Lead us not into temptation but deliver us from evil".

The most Genuine Darrell is one with God in his heart. Its not the one we judge separate from God. Not the one we judge and scoff at , he can't go a day without sin let alone a week.

God loves you, you are a son. This isn't about you preventing yourself from sinning in a false sense, but in the truest sense depending on God alone.

So when you pray to God to protect you. Is it some kind of joke where in the back of your mind you suspect, well he isn't really going to protect me. Why not?

The problem is you start with an accusation as being independently separate from God. You are image of God, The core ingredient of your life is Jesus and the core ingredient of Darrell is God.

Darrell keeping Darrell out of trouble. I could agree if its this fake thing separate from God he's got no chance.

Its when you depend on God then I can say ok that's really him keeping himself out of trouble and he can do it forever, piece of cake.

Just answer the question, Utilyan.

Have you sinned since you were saved. Yes or no.


God bless.

 

[utilyan]

Just answer the question, Utilyan.

Have you sinned since you were saved. Yes or no.


God bless.

Yes.

You see my "yes", Lets see you handle a "Yes or No"

So the Lord's Prayer. "Lead us not into temptation, deliver us from evil"

The correct way to pray it is to expect God not to actually do it.

Yes or No.

 

[Pastor_Bob]

So the Lord's Prayer. "Lead us not into temptation, deliver us from evil"

The correct way to pray it is to expect God not to actually do it.

Yes or No.

First, Jesus is in no way implying that God would ever entice us to sin. That is not His nature nor His character (James 1:13).

We are never promised to be kept from temptations (trials and testing) but we do have a promise that, with every temptation, God provides a way to escape (I Cor. 10:13).

The proper attitude in the midst of trials and testing is the attitude that the three Hebrew children had as they were facing the fiery furnace.

Daniel 3:16 Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego, answered and said to the king, O Nebuchadnezzar, we are not careful to answer thee in this matter. 17 If it be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace, and he will deliver us out of thine hand, O king. 18 But if not, be it known unto thee, O king, that we will not serve thy gods, nor worship the golden image which thou hast set up.

These boys certainly knew that God was able to deliver them but they still trusted Him with the final outcome.

Jesus instructed us to pray "lead us not into temptation" because we are mere humans that may possibly grow weary in testing and fail the test.

while praying that God would not allow us to face such testing, we still must trust in His sovereignty and leave the final outcome to Him.

 

[vooks]

I have not taken the time to read all 140 replies; so, if I am restating something that has already been brought up, I apologize.

A loss of rewards is not all that a backslidden believer will suffer. There are actually several things he/she will lose:

• They will lose the joy of their salvation (Ps. 51:12).
• They will lose their testimony to and influence on others (Ps. 51:13).
  
• They will lose their ability to lead their family spiritually and may very well lose their children (Gen. 19:14).
• They will lose their spiritual perception (Judges 16:20).
  
• They will lose their ability to have their prayers heard (Ps. 66:18).
  
• They very well may lose their life prematurely (Heb. 10:26-29).

So, no, this is not an easy doctrine to which we hold. It is a very sobering doctrine that should cause the child of God to draw closer to God every day lest we grow cold and distant and begin to lose so much that we hold dear in this life.

Hebrews 10:39 warns against loss of eternal life. Why would I be threatened with something that is implausible?

 

[BobRyan]

Hebrews 10:39 warns against loss of eternal life. Why would I be threatened with something that is implausible?

Indeed - God does not warn us against flying so high that our wings no longer work or so high that we cannot breathe -- because we simply don't have that as a problem (apart from stuff we build).

 

[Rginald Woodbridge]

I would prefer to believe in Unconditional Eternal Security. And I have no idea why anyone would not want to believe it. Once I put saving faith in Jesus Christ, nothing can change my eternal destiny. I can return to a life of wickedness,die in unrepentance,and I will still be saved in the end. I can even renounce my faith,die in unbelief and still enter God's kingdom. The only loss is I would have some significantly lesser heavenly rewards or no rewards at all, but heaven I am not missing for nothing.

Then of course there is Calvinist classic conundrum where God is solely charged with preserving the Elect right up to their destination. The apostates, those who fall away from their faith and salvation were never saved in the first place, they just thought they were, and they fooled everyone in the process including themselves! Their falling away prove that their conversion was spurious for the truly saved. The Elect will finally fall away.

I can understand why this latter view is repulsive; it teaches eternal INsecurity, for we have no right to call nobody Elect today lest tomorrow they depart form faith and manifest their true colors. So instead of calling the dropouts fakes while everyone can be one the next second, let's keep them in.

Again, as I said, I think this is cool and I can't see how anyone would not want to believe it. The only reason I reject the doctrine is because I believe the Word of God is clearly against it.

I wish to examine a relatively common text used by proponents of this attractive theory in the book of Hebrews;

Hebrews 10:39 (KJV)
But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

The argument derived from this is, the writer of Hebrews acknowledges existence of some who fall away and consequently perish, but by 'we are not' he excludes his Christian subjects from this.

Conclusion?
Believers can't or will not draw back, and those who draw back can't possibly be true believers

 

[Rginald Woodbridge]

Salvation can be lost..1Timothy5;11-13 reveals some saved women had damnation as they had cast off their first faith...turned aside after Satan.........Revelation22;19....take the names from book of life if take away from words of book...........Revelation20;15 hell awaits those who are not written in book of life.....also In Hebrews10;26--27 states to sin wilfully after receiving knowledge of truth that a fiery judgement await which shall devour such.....read on to verse 31......enough for now........much more if needed

 

[BobRyan]

Matt 18 "Forgiveness revoked" described by Christ "I forgave you ALL that debt" -- then the debt returned.

Ezek 18 - "Forgiveness revoked" for the one who turns against God after having been accepted by God.

Romans 11 "but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again..

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Rginald Woodbridge]

First, the point is not that everyone "can." Everyone does, and they can't help themselves. They will sin. There is nothing they can do about it. What does the Scripture say:

Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
--No one is excluded.

Jeremiah 13:23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.
--The Ethiopian cannot change the color of his skin; the leopard cannot change his spots, and you cannot stop your sinning. It is impossible.

Ecclesiastes 7:20 For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.
--Every one sins. They can't help it.
Now what makes you think that you are any different? Are you more righteous than everyone else in the world?

Secondly, How do you know God will forgive you? What is the basis of your belief? Does God just forgive anyone?
It is like this. If I drive 40 miles per hour over the speed limit and the police pull me over and question me. Why I was going so fast. No matter what I say, I have no excuse. I have broken the law. I have sinned. I must pay the penalty according to the law. But what if I say something like this: "Please forgive me according to your mercy. Have mercy. Don't give me this ticket. I have obeyed all your laws in the past: stopped at every stop light, kept the speed limit previously, etc. I will never do it again. I promise. Forgive me, I beg you. Have mercy.
What do you think the reaction that police officer would have? IMO, he would think you are crazy. He will not forgive you!! You have broken the law. You must pay the penalty.
God is the same way. You must pay the penalty for sin. He is just not going to forgive you because you ask forgiveness. There is a basis for forgiveness. As with our justice system there is someone who may pay your ticket for you. It is possible in God's sight for someone to pay the price of your crime for you. But you cannot go absolutely free. There is a price to be paid for your sin--all sin.


No they don't. They are slaves to sin. They have a sin nature. They are like the Ethiopian and the leopard. They cannot change.


Faith has nothing to do with it. You don't have the power to keep you out of sin. You sin every day and you know it. You simply need to confess it. The fact that you don't exposes your sin of arrogance and pride which are sins in themselves.

 

[Rginald Woodbridge]

The fact is we first of all do not have the sin nature anymore...The new birth,being born again. is explianed in 2Corinthians5;17..if anyman be in Christ he is a new creature[creation]....old things have passed away....behold all things are become new..18..and all things are of God.......we have become new....inside...Thats why except a man is born again he cannot see nor enter the kingdom of God.....we are born anew..by Gods Spirit....ephesians2;1---10....you hath he[God quickened who were dead in trespasses and sins.....quickened means to be given life...you were dead....but he hath quickened us...verse 5...with Christ......we are now given the gift of righteousness...Romans3;10...speaks of unsaved man..but read on....verse21...But NOW..[at the present time.....verse22.....tells us it is by faith in Jesus Christ and its unto all and upon all....that believe....so the ones verse23 speakes of as have sinned and come short of glory of God are the ones he speaks of as now being made righteous......now read verse19..20....but good news...WE ARE NOT UNDER LAW BUT UNDER GRACE.......ROMANS6;14.........THE REASON WE NEEDED TO BE BORN AGAIN WAS TO MAKE US A NEW CREATION......IF ANY MAN BE IN CHRIST....HE IS..not will become one day..2Corinthians5;17.......Romans5;17 declares righteoussness is a gift....its no longer I that liveth..but Christ that liveth in me.....I have his nature now.....you are to reckon yourselves to be dead unto sinRomans6;11.....you need to have knowledge..which is to know somthing...tryRomans6;6our old man is crucified with him...our old man...we are now new....that henceforth you should not serve sin...because you have power within........and if we be dead we are free from sin...Romans6;11now as Christ died unto sin once...verse10...likewise you do the same...verse11...reckon yourselves to be dead unto sin but alive unto God............our new creation is not corruptible....1Peter3;4...called the hidden man of the heart...the inner one you cannot see........there is a new man inside you...2Corinthians4;16.......inner man is renewed day by day.....you see my friend...we must believe in the fact that when Jesus died and arose again it was for this....Romans4;20-----------it is imputed to you[given freely and counted by God as true]...if you believe Jesus died for our offences and was raised again for your justification[as if i had never sinned].....I think you have never fully understood the cross...the blood..of our precious saviour.....if you think your an old sinner saved by grace thats how you will live..we do as we believe........why not see yourself as you were an old sinner....you got saved by grace...now as a new creation you are a new creation.........you have been declared and made righteouss...oh but you have to believe it..I could go on..but if you havent got it with the word I SHARED WITH YOU...YOU PROBABLY WONT....TRUST FAITH ABOUNS IN YOU TO BELIEVE AND LIVE LIKE THE TEMPLE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT..AMEN

 

[DHK]

The fact is we first of all do not have the sin nature anymore...The new birth,being born again. is explianed in 2Corinthians5;17..if anyman be in Christ he is a new creature[creation]....old things have passed away....behold all things are become new..18..and all things are of God.......we have become new....inside...Thats why except a man is born again he cannot see nor enter the kingdom of God.....we are born anew..by Gods Spirit....ephesians2;1---10....you hath he[God quickened who were dead in trespasses and sins.....quickened means to be given life...you were dead....but he hath quickened us...verse 5...with Christ......we are now given the gift of righteousness...Romans3;10...speaks of unsaved man..but read on....verse21...But NOW..[at the present time.....verse22.....tells us it is by faith in Jesus Christ and its unto all and upon all....that believe....so the ones verse23 speakes of as have sinned and come short of glory of God are the ones he speaks of as now being made righteous......now read verse19..20....but good news...WE ARE NOT UNDER LAW BUT UNDER GRACE.......ROMANS6;14.........THE REASON WE NEEDED TO BE BORN AGAIN WAS TO MAKE US A NEW CREATION......IF ANY MAN BE IN CHRIST....HE IS..not will become one day..2Corinthians5;17.......Romans5;17 declares righteoussness is a gift....its no longer I that liveth..but Christ that liveth in me.....I have his nature now.....you are to reckon yourselves to be dead unto sinRomans6;11.....you need to have knowledge..which is to know somthing...tryRomans6;6our old man is crucified with him...our old man...we are now new....that henceforth you should not serve sin...because you have power within........and if we be dead we are free from sin...Romans6;11now as Christ died unto sin once...verse10...likewise you do the same...verse11...reckon yourselves to be dead unto sin but alive unto God............our new creation is not corruptible....1Peter3;4...called the hidden man of the heart...the inner one you cannot see........there is a new man inside you...2Corinthians4;16.......inner man is renewed day by day.....you see my friend...we must believe in the fact that when Jesus died and arose again it was for this....Romans4;20-----------it is imputed to you[given freely and counted by God as true]...if you believe Jesus died for our offences and was raised again for your justification[as if i had never sinned].....I think you have never fully understood the cross...the blood..of our precious saviour.....if you think your an old sinner saved by grace thats how you will live..we do as we believe........why not see yourself as you were an old sinner....you got saved by grace...now as a new creation you are a new creation.........you have been declared and made righteouss...oh but you have to believe it..I could go on..but if you havent got it with the word I SHARED WITH YOU...YOU PROBABLY WONT....TRUST FAITH ABOUNS IN YOU TO BELIEVE AND LIVE LIKE THE TEMPLE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT..AMEN

Stringing a bunch of verses doesn't prove a thing.
I can string 31,103 verses together and give you God's plan of redemption throughout all ages. Those 31,103 verses would be called the Bible. At least they would be all in chronological order and much easier to read than what is in your post.

 

[BobRyan]

Romans 8:4-9 describes two groups - one of then "does not submit to the LAW of God - neither indeed CAN they" -- and that group is the lost according to Romans 8.

hence the entire chapter of Romans 6 on obedience.

 

[rigz]

Stringing a bunch of verses doesn't prove a thing.
I can string 31,103 verses together and give you God's plan of redemption throughout all ages. Those 31,103 verses would be called the Bible. At least they would be all in chronological order and much easier to read than what is in your post.

That is funny