Debunking Unconditional Eternal Security: John 15:1-6

[Darrell C]

CONCLUSION
Unfruitfulness is a consequence of not abiding, and while one abides they bear fruit and this ceases when they stop abiding.

The whole point of the passage is to encourage the disciples to abide, to remain in Christ. This would be pretty irrelevant if they can't but abide and bear fruit. But there is the risk of failure to abide resulting into unfruitfulness and casting away, withering and being cast into fire.

Your conclusion is wrong, because you assume to understand what "abiding" means here.

Coming from a L.O.S.T. (loss of salvation teachings) viewpoint, which demands men collaborate with God to get salvation accomplished, it is understandable that you would impose a meaning of "remaining faithful" to the abiding Christ speaks about here.

But here is what you are forgetting to do, just as you do when you enter the Book of Hebrews: you forget the significance of Historical Context.

Here is the vine which is not the True Vine, Vooks: Israel.

Israel looked to Covenant relationship as the means of provision, first, in relationship with God, then, those things needful to man. The Covenant of Law provided a means by which men might be in relationship with God, and...live.

When Christ states "I am the True Vine," what He is saying is that He is the source of provision.

(The Creation of) Israel provided relationship with God, Christ provides true relationship through Reconciliation, which the Law did not provide.

Israel provided sustenance for life (i.e., manna, the land, safety, et cetera), Christ provides Eternal Life.

When Israel failed to be in relationship with God, they were judged. This is what the Lord means when He says "I am come to the Lost Sheep of Israel only," He is saying they were in a state of destruction. The word "lost" is the same word used when the Lord state "Fear Him Who hath power to "destroy" both soul and body in Hell."

"Abiding" in this context, therefore, refers to that approaching time when those of Israel would make a decision to remain in the provision of God or to not remain. When the New Covenant was established, the previous provision became obsolete, and is not considered to bring relationship with God.

This is why we do not find the disciples of "not abiding," because at this point the revelation of the Mystery of the Gospel of Christ has not even been brought to them. An example of this is found in Matthew 16:21-23 where, having received the Gospel of Christ from no less than Christ Himself...Peter says "This shall never be unto thee, Lord."

So the abiding in view has a foremost application to Israel, rather than a general teaching that supports the L.O.S.T. (loss of salvation teachings). We can apply a general principle to those who associate with Christ who profess faith in Christ then fall away. But, they are branches, not because they are saved (and they are not saved in John 15 under New Covenant provision), but because they are of Israel.

And that is why we see that the Lord, as He said, was sent only to the Lost Sheep of Israel, not the Gentiles, not the Samaritans. Because the Gospel of the Kingdom had a primary relevance to those the promises were given.


God bless.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Now this is an intriguing statement.

Could you elaborate on why "Once Saved Always Saved" is wrong?

God bless.

Certainly. OSAS suggests that anyone who has made a profession of faith is automatically a card-carrying Christian and can live like the devil and still arrive in heaven. This is simply not true (Matt. 7:21-23; 1 Cor. 6:9-11; Gal. 5:19-21).

The Perseverance of the Saints teaches that God keeps His saints and so, although they may fall into sin at some point, they will be brought back to repentance and so will most certainly persevere and arrive in heaven. Anyone who does not persevere is therefore not a saint QED.

 

[Darrell C]

Certainly. OSAS suggests that anyone who has made a profession of faith is automatically a card-carrying Christian and can live like the devil and still arrive in heaven. This is simply not true (Matt. 7:21-23; 1 Cor. 6:9-11; Gal. 5:19-21).

What is not true is that this is a valid way to define OSAS. OSAS is simply another way to refer to Eternal Security.

That salvation issues license to sin is simply an argument presented by those who deny Eternal Security.

The Perseverance of the Saints teaches that God keeps His saints and so, although they may fall into sin at some point, they will be brought back to repentance and so will most certainly persevere and arrive in heaven. Anyone who does not persevere is therefore not a saint QED.

And I'm with Sproul on this one, it should be changed to the Preservation of the Saints. You define it properly, but the title is misleading to some.

Once saved always saved has been given a bad name not only by it's antagonists, but by those who affirm this doctrinal position without knowing why.


God bless.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

What is not true is that this is a valid way to define OSAS. OSAS is simply another way to refer to Eternal Security.

That salvation issues license to sin is simply an argument presented by those who deny Eternal Security

You must know that there are those on this Board (and more than one of them) who declare that one can be a 'Carnal Christian' all one's life, sin like the devil, and still reach heaven. I think the term OSAS should be abolished because of its abuse.

And I'm with Sproul on this one, it should be changed to the Preservation of the Saints. You define it properly, but the title is misleading to some.

Not 'Preservation' but 'Perseverance.' Although God preserves His people, the Christian is not passive in his sanctification (Philippians 2:12-13; 2 Peter 1:2-11).

 

[Darrell C]

You must know that there are those on this Board (and more than one of them) who declare that one can be a 'Carnal Christian' all one's life, sin like the devil, and still reach heaven. I think the term OSAS should be abolished because of its abuse.

Again, we see an example of someone falsely presenting what OSAS means for 99% of the people familiar with it.

But this is the thing, Martin, extremes like these arise out of the division in the Body. Those who think you can lose your salvation range from nominal to fanatical, so too with those who embrace the Biblical Doctrine of Eternal Security.

But we don't let those people define the truths of Scripture, or, the terms used to describe Biblical Doctrine. And I think if we give merit to the false arguments that arise, we become just as guilty as they are.

Here is an example: Charismatics (many of them) take a view that the Baptism with the Holy Ghost is a subsequent event that takes place after one is "saved." We don't go around reviling the Biblical Doctrine because they have taken a term and corrupted it, or taken it to an extreme, right? Legalistic or antinomian, some do not understand a level balance.

Not 'Preservation' but 'Perseverance.' Although God preserves His people, the Christian is not passive in his sanctification (Philippians 2:12-13; 2 Peter 1:2-11).

No, Preservation, that is what Sproul has said he would like to change it to, lol. I am aware it is Perseverance, but as I said, this can be misleading to some, particularly for those not familiar with basic teachings of Calvinism. Perseverance can for imply effort on the part of believers, or I should say stress their efforts, rather than God's keeping power, and all that entails.

In regards to progressive sanctification and it's relevance to "perseverance," I see that as two-sided, though without question view God as having the majority role. But, I don't see Scripture teaching a "Let go and let God" mentality (though I did, when examining a Psalm, see that in the original language almost word for word, lol). We do take an active part in our growth, as well as the works we were meant to do. I think we can hinder God's will for our lives through sin, and readily admit I am guilty of that more often than I am proud of.

But going back to the original issue, I don't see classifying OSAS according to the definition of antagonists and those obviously ignorant in regards to our command to depart from sin. Just me, but I see it as a legitimate term that is well recognized by many people, and, the starting point for good discussion, because the antagonists of Eternal Security almost always use that term.


God bless.

 

[vooks]

Certainly. OSAS suggests that anyone who has made a profession of faith is automatically a card-carrying Christian and can live like the devil and still arrive in heaven. This is simply not true (Matt. 7:21-23; 1 Cor. 6:9-11; Gal. 5:19-21).

The Perseverance of the Saints teaches that God keeps His saints and so, although they may fall into sin at some point, they will be brought back to repentance and so will most certainly persevere and arrive in heaven. Anyone who does not persevere is therefore not a saint QED.

Perseverance of Saints is just as hollow and saying the same thing in as many words. The ones who don't persevere can blame God for not helping them persevere.

Think through this question.
WHY is it that some don't persevere to the end?
Are you one of those who persevere to the end?
What can I do for God to persevere me to the end?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Perseverance of Saints is just as hollow and saying the same thing in as many words. The ones who don't persevere can blame God for not helping them persevere.

It's not the same, and if you read my post you would know why, but I don't think you are interested in what other people are saying.

Those who do not persevere will no doubt blame anything and anyone but themselves, but it is every Christian's duty to persevere (Phil. 2:12-13 again).

Think through this question.
WHY is it that some don't persevere to the end?
Are you one of those who persevere to the end?
What can I do for God to persevere me to the end?

That's three questions, not one. I think you ought to tell us why you are going to persevere to the end and what you're doing for God to make that happen.

 

[vooks]

Your conclusion is wrong, because you assume to understand what "abiding" means here.

Coming from a L.O.S.T. (loss of salvation teachings) viewpoint, which demands men collaborate with God to get salvation accomplished, it is understandable that you would impose a meaning of "remaining faithful" to the abiding Christ speaks about here.

@Darrell C,
Don't be a fence sitter.
Either man has a role in his salvation or he doesn't. Which is it?

But here is what you are forgetting to do, just as you do when you enter the Book of Hebrews: you forget the significance of Historical Context.

Here is the vine which is not the True Vine, Vooks: Israel.

This is a figment of your hallucination.
Israel is the 'not the True Vine'

Israel looked to Covenant relationship as the means of provision, first, in relationship with God, then, those things needful to man. The Covenant of Law provided a means by which men might be in relationship with God, and...live.

Bla de bla

When Christ states "I am the True Vine," what He is saying is that He is the source of provision.

(The Creation of) Israel provided relationship with God, Christ provides true relationship through Reconciliation, which the Law did not provide.

Israel provided sustenance for life (i.e., manna, the land, safety, et cetera), Christ provides Eternal Life.

Bla de bla

When Israel failed to be in relationship with God, they were judged. This is what the Lord means when He says "I am come to the Lost Sheep of Israel only," He is saying they were in a state of destruction. The word "lost" is the same word used when the Lord state "Fear Him Who hath power to "destroy" both soul and body in Hell."

Bla Bla Bla
Stop bleating and confront me

"Abiding" in this context, therefore, refers to that approaching time when those of Israel would make a decision to remain in the provision of God or to not remain. When the New Covenant was established, the previous provision became obsolete, and is not considered to bring relationship with God.

In short this is an Israel ONLY verse and not applicable to you?
And what's worse, it takes Dispensationalism.....DIVIDING scriptures between what applies to this this or a future graceless dispensation?

Do you know how silly you sound?
To escape the obvious implication of Jesus' words, you relegate them to a future utopia you just created where Grace will be suspended and men will have again have to work to earn their salvation, right? The same time when Ezekiel's temple will kick in?

Darby must be rolling in hell

This is why we do not find the disciples of "not abiding," because at this point the revelation of the Mystery of the Gospel of Christ has not even been brought to them. An example of this is found in Matthew 16:21-23 where, having received the Gospel of Christ from no less than Christ Himself...Peter says "This shall never be unto thee, Lord."

Nonsense

This is a clear warning against falling away

So the abiding in view has a foremost application to Israel, rather than a general teaching that supports the L.O.S.T. (loss of salvation teachings).

How about this simple exercise
Briefly give me tips for identifying NT passages that are applicable to Israel nation and not the church

We can apply a general principle to those who associate with Christ who profess faith in Christ then fall away. But, they are branches, not because they are saved (and they are not saved in John 15 under New Covenant provision), but because they are of Israel.

Nonsense. Look at the consequences of the one who is cut off. Eternal damnation

Now answer this;
1. What is the eternal fate of a Jew, a practicing Judaist?
A. Heaven
B. Hell

And that is why we see that the Lord, as He said, was sent only to the Lost Sheep of Israel, not the Gentiles, not the Samaritans. Because the Gospel of the Kingdom had a primary relevance to those the promises were given.


God bless.

Nope, that is not the reason. EVERY promise given to the Jew is appropriated by the Gentile through faith in Jesus. Jesus went FIRST to the custodians of the promises

 

[vooks]

Those who do not persevere will no doubt blame anything and anyone but themselves, but it is every Christian's duty to persevere (Phil. 2:12-13 again).

Who perseveres/keeps Christians to the end, is it not God? How then is it their duty to persevere?

 

[Darrell C]

Don't be a fence sitter.
Either man has a role in his salvation or he doesn't. Which is it?

Hey thanks for such an easy question, Vooks: man plays absolutely zero role in salvation, which does not divorce him from the process.

Man is without spiritual ability...period. In order for man to become aware of his condition, which is one of separation from God, God must intervene and enlighten that man. This is precisely what the Role of the Spirit is in this Age, and you can learn of that Ministry by reading John 14-16.

This is not to say that man is completely divorced from the process, because man is called to decide. However, most will put the horse before the cart, and forget this part of the process, and ascribe that choice as something man is born capable of deciding. He is not.

An analogy might be seen in the man brought into the ER having had a heart attack. To say man plays a role in the salvation process is similar to saying the heart attack victim plays a role in his resuscitation.

Neither one do.

So we can say "man has a role," just like the heart attack victim does, but, the error comes in when we make this to mean the heart attack victim, or the redeemed...contributed to their rescue.

Last day here, Vooks, so hope you the best in your walk with Christ, and I am confident that if you are saved...He will lead you in the way you should go, and despite thinking you are giving Him a helping hand, He won't hold that against you.

We can trust our Father to understand our confusion as children.


God bless.

 

[vooks]

Hey thanks for such an easy question, Vooks: man plays absolutely zero role in salvation, which does not divorce him from the process.

Man is without spiritual ability...period. In order for man to become aware of his condition, which is one of separation from God, God must intervene and enlighten that man. This is precisely what the Role of the Spirit is in this Age, and you can learn of that Ministry by reading John 14-16.

This is not to say that man is completely divorced from the process, because man is called to decide. However, most will put the horse before the cart, and forget this part of the process, and ascribe that choice as something man is born capable of deciding. He is not.

An analogy might be seen in the man brought into the ER having had a heart attack. To say man plays a role in the salvation process is similar to saying the heart attack victim plays a role in his resuscitation.

Neither one do.

So we can say "man has a role," just like the heart attack victim does, but, the error comes in when we make this to mean the heart attack victim, or the redeemed...contributed to their rescue.

Last day here, Vooks, so hope you the best in your walk with Christ, and I am confident that if you are saved...He will lead you in the way you should go, and despite thinking you are giving Him a helping hand, He won't hold that against you.

We can trust our Father to understand our confusion as children.


God bless.

Man DECIDING is not playing a role?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Who perseveres/keeps Christians to the end, is it not God? How then is it their duty to persevere?

Just keep reading Philippians 2:12-13 until the penny drops.

 

[vooks]

Just keep reading Philippians 2:12-13 until the penny drops.

I trust you have read and are well illuminated.

Exactly what is perseverance of the saints?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Exactly what is perseverance of the saints?

1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith

Chapter 17: Of The Perseverance of the Saints

1. Those whom God hath accepted in the beloved, effectually called and sanctified by his Spirit, and given the precious faith of his elect unto, can neither totally nor finally fall from the state of grace, but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved, seeing the gifts and callings of God are without repentance, whence he still begets and nourisheth in them faith, repentance, love, joy, hope, and all the graces of the Spirit unto immortality; and though many storms and floods arise and beat against them, yet they shall never be able to take them off that foundation and rock which by faith they are fastened upon; notwithstanding, through unbelief and the temptations of Satan, the sensible sight of the light and love of God may for a time be clouded and obscured from them, yet he is still the same, and they shall be sure to be kept by the power of God unto salvation, where they shall enjoy their purchased possession, they being engraven upon the palm of his hands, and their names having been written in the book of life from all eternity.
( John 10:28, 29; Philippians 1:6; 2 Timothy 2:19; 1 John 2:19; Psalms 89:31, 32; 1 Corinthians 11:32; Malachi 3:6 )



2. This perseverance of the saints depends not upon their own free will, but upon the immutability of the decree of election, flowing from the free and unchangeable love of God the Father, upon the efficacy of the merit and intercession of Jesus Christ and union with him, the oath of God, the abiding of his Spirit, and the seed of God within them, and the nature of the covenant of grace; from all which ariseth also the certainty and infallibility thereof.
( Romans 8:30; Romans 9:11, 16; Romans 5:9, 10; John 14:19; Hebrews 6:17, 18; 1 John 3:9; Jeremiah 32:40 )



3. And though they may, through the temptation of Satan and of the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins, and for a time continue therein, whereby they incur God's displeasure and grieve his Holy Spirit, come to have their graces and comforts impaired, have their hearts hardened, and their consciences wounded, hurt and scandalize others, and bring temporal judgments upon themselves, yet shall they renew their repentance and be preserved through faith in Christ Jesus to the end.
( Matthew 26:70, 72, 74; Isaiah 64:5, 9; Ephesians 4:30; Psalms 51:10, 12; Psalms 32:3, 4; 2 Samuel 12:14; Luke 22:32, 61, 62 )
[Continued in next post]

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Chapter 18: Of the Assurance of Grace and Salvation

1. Although temporary believers, and other unregenerate men, may vainly deceive themselves with false hopes and carnal presumptions of being in the favour of God and state of salvation, which hope of theirs shall perish; yet such as truly believe in the Lord Jesus, and love him in sincerity, endeavouring to walk in all good conscience before him, may in this life be certainly assured that they are in the state of grace, and may rejoice in the hope of the glory of God, which hope shall never make them ashamed.
( Job 8:13, 14; Matthew 7:22, 23; 1 John 2:3; 1 John 3:14, 18, 19, 21, 24; 1 John 5:13; Romans 5:2, 5 )
2. This certainty is not a bare conjectural and probable persuasion grounded upon a fallible hope, but an infallible assurance of faith founded on the blood and righteousness of Christ revealed in the Gospel; and also upon the inward evidence of those graces of the Spirit unto which promises are made, and on the testimony of the Spirit of adoption, witnessing with our spirits that we are the children of God; and, as a fruit thereof, keeping the heart both humble and holy.
( Hebrews 6:11, 19; Hebrews 6:17, 18; 2 Peter 1:4, 5, 10, 11; Romans 8:15, 16; 1 John 3:1-3 )

3. This infallible assurance doth not so belong to the essence of faith, but that a true believer may wait long, and conflict with many difficulties before he be partaker of it; yet being enabled by the Spirit to know the things which are freely given him of God, he may, without extraordinary revelation, in the right use of means, attain thereunto: and therefore it is the duty of every one to give all diligence to make his calling and election sure, that thereby his heart may be enlarged in peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, in love and thankfulness to God, and in strength and cheerfulness in the duties of obedience, the proper fruits of this assurance; -so far is it from inclining men to looseness.
( Isaiah 50:10; Psalms 88; Psalms 77:1-12; 1 John 4:13; Hebrews 6:11, 12; Romans 5:1, 2, 5; Romans 14:17; Psalms 119:32; Romans 6:1,2; Titus 2:11, 12, 14 )

4. True believers may have the assurance of their salvation divers ways shaken, diminished, and intermitted; as by negligence in preserving of it, by falling into some special sin which woundeth the conscience and grieveth the Spirit; by some sudden or vehement temptation, by God's withdrawing the light of his countenance, and suffering even such as fear him to walk in darkness and to have no light, yet are they never destitute of the seed of God and life of faith, that love of Christ and the brethren, that sincerity of heart and conscience of duty out of which, by the operation of the Spirit, this assurance may in due time be revived, and by the which, in the meantime, they are preserved from utter despair.
( Song of Solomon 5:2, 3, 6; Psalms 51:8, 12, 14; Psalms 116:11; Psalms 77:7, 8; Psalms 31:22; Psalms 30:7; 1 John 3:9; Luke 22:32; Psalms 42:5, 11; Lamentations 3:26-31 )

 

[vooks]

Chapter 18: Of the Assurance of Grace and Salvation

1. Although temporary believers, and other unregenerate men, may vainly deceive themselves with false hopes and carnal presumptions of being in the favour of God and state of salvation, which hope of theirs shall perish; yet such as truly believe in the Lord Jesus, and love him in sincerity, endeavouring to walk in all good conscience before him, may in this life be certainly assured that they are in the state of grace, and may rejoice in the hope of the glory of God, which hope shall never make them ashamed.
( Job 8:13, 14; Matthew 7:22, 23; 1 John 2:3; 1 John 3:14, 18, 19, 21, 24; 1 John 5:13; Romans 5:2, 5 )
2. This certainty is not a bare conjectural and probable persuasion grounded upon a fallible hope, but an infallible assurance of faith founded on the blood and righteousness of Christ revealed in the Gospel; and also upon the inward evidence of those graces of the Spirit unto which promises are made, and on the testimony of the Spirit of adoption, witnessing with our spirits that we are the children of God; and, as a fruit thereof, keeping the heart both humble and holy.
( Hebrews 6:11, 19; Hebrews 6:17, 18; 2 Peter 1:4, 5, 10, 11; Romans 8:15, 16; 1 John 3:1-3 )

3. This infallible assurance doth not so belong to the essence of faith, but that a true believer may wait long, and conflict with many difficulties before he be partaker of it; yet being enabled by the Spirit to know the things which are freely given him of God, he may, without extraordinary revelation, in the right use of means, attain thereunto: and therefore it is the duty of every one to give all diligence to make his calling and election sure, that thereby his heart may be enlarged in peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, in love and thankfulness to God, and in strength and cheerfulness in the duties of obedience, the proper fruits of this assurance; -so far is it from inclining men to looseness.
( Isaiah 50:10; Psalms 88; Psalms 77:1-12; 1 John 4:13; Hebrews 6:11, 12; Romans 5:1, 2, 5; Romans 14:17; Psalms 119:32; Romans 6:1,2; Titus 2:11, 12, 14 )

4. True believers may have the assurance of their salvation divers ways shaken, diminished, and intermitted; as by negligence in preserving of it, by falling into some special sin which woundeth the conscience and grieveth the Spirit; by some sudden or vehement temptation, by God's withdrawing the light of his countenance, and suffering even such as fear him to walk in darkness and to have no light, yet are they never destitute of the seed of God and life of faith, that love of Christ and the brethren, that sincerity of heart and conscience of duty out of which, by the operation of the Spirit, this assurance may in due time be revived, and by the which, in the meantime, they are preserved from utter despair.
( Song of Solomon 5:2, 3, 6; Psalms 51:8, 12, 14; Psalms 116:11; Psalms 77:7, 8; Psalms 31:22; Psalms 30:7; 1 John 3:9; Luke 22:32; Psalms 42:5, 11; Lamentations 3:26-31 )

How do you know if you are not a temporary believer?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

How do you know if you are not a temporary believer?

How do you know?

 

[vooks]

How do you know?

I'm not the one who threw in the vocabulary of 'temporary believers', you did, so tell me.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I'm not the one who threw in the vocabulary of 'temporary believers', you did, so tell me.

Why? Do you believe that there is no such thing as a temporary believer, or do you fear that you might be one?

 

[vooks]

Why? Do you believe that there is no such thing as a temporary believer, or do you fear that you might be one?

I have never heard of the term, and I'm interested in knowing whether you are (not) one