"Deciding For The Lord"

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by npetreley:
So you have not only misapplied the word "comforter" in order to avoid admitting you're wrong, you have to ignore the mountain of scripture that plainly says Spirit and Holy Spirit (not the ambiguous "comforter").

Not quite, ya see, the rapture is the removing of the "Comforter", who is greater than Satan, and then "power" is shifted to the side of the "Oppressor", in this case the AC during the trib,

Israel, and the world goes back under the "law and Prophets" system of leadership during the trib, in other words there is "NO SPIRITUAL CALLING/POWER" during the trib.

They'll have God's written word, the two witnesses, Moses/Elijah, the 144000, and many signs and wonders to believe, but no indwelling spiritual calling or assistance.

Israel/world will have to "CHOSE" between crucifying the soul by taking the "Mark" so the flesh will live, or

"Literally", Crucifying the flesh by refusing the "Mark" to worship Jesus so the soul can live,


And they will make this "CHOICE" "WITHOUT" the presents of the "POWER" of the "Comforter", (Holy Ghost) or "Voice of Jesus" Calling, just as people did in the OT.

Calvin's doctrine is based "Wholy" upon the presents of the "Holy Ghost", (Comforter/Voice of Jesus/NT), but remove that "Holy Ghost", (OT/Trib) and calvins doctrine of "total depravity/irresistable calling" falls apart.

Actually, our Judgement is based on our "CHOICE", what WE SOW is what we reap,

Ga 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

"WHOSOEVER" WILL CALL Upon the lord will be saved and whosoever will not, WON'T.

Jesus died for the sins of the whole world, the "Free gift" is offered to the whole world, that they "MIGHT BE" saved, so the whole world has that choice, and without a "mugging" (irresistable) by the Spirit.

Oh, well. I thought we had a breakthrough coming but I guess not.

I think we do have a "breakthrough",

BTW, you owe me a "nickle",

I accept Paypal, Visa, Mastercard,

 

[npetreley]

If it was worth a nickle, I'd pay for it. As it is, I think you need to pay me to sit through bizarre lessons like this. Even "The Late Great Planet Earth" (which I happen to think was total garbage) was more usefull than that unbiblical exposition. Although I do see some similarities. Is that where you're getting your information?

 

[epistemaniac]

Originally posted by Me4Him:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by epistemaniac:
Me4him... who denies that a choice is made? certainly not the Calvinist... when will you ever some to understand this simple.... basic.... elementary point? its sad to see you go on and on about something completely irrelevant,
blessings,
Ken

Where is the choice in an "Irresistible calling"??? </font>[/QUOTE]to answer both you and standing firm... Irresistible Grace/Effectual Calling does not deny that a choice is made at all. Calvinism never denies that an exercise of the will occurs such that one chooses to follow Christ. What happens to the sinner, the one who is blinded by the god of this world, is that their heart of stone is taken out, and a heart of flesh replaces it; they are literally born again of the Spirit so that their blinded eyes are opened to the beauty of Christ, and they follow Him. Regeneration precedes faith, the heart is changed, and the choices made reflect that change.

blessings,
Ken

 

[epistemaniac]

Me4him you said

This is what calvin didn't consider when writing his doctrine, He gave no consideration at all to the OT

really? seems to me that he did, or didn't you know about Calvin's OT commentaries? They aren't hard to find... http://www.ccel.org/c/calvin/comment3/comm_index.htm

blessings,
Ken

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by npetreley:
If it was worth a nickle, I'd pay for it. As it is, I think you need to pay me to sit through bizarre lessons like this. Even "The Late Great Planet Earth" (which I happen to think was total garbage) was more usefull than that unbiblical exposition. Although I do see some similarities. Is that where you're getting your information?

There's an excuse for being ignorant, but no excuse for remaining ignorant,

If you don't possses the knowledge to refute it, don't, until you do.

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by epistemaniac:
Irresistible Grace/Effectual Calling does not deny that a choice is made at all. Calvinism never denies that an exercise of the will occurs such that one chooses to follow Christ.

Either I'm getting different "versions" of calvin or you're speaking out of both side of your mouth.

On the one hand, "Sovereign will/predestination" denies "ANY" decision by man,

Now you say, "Calling does not deny that a choice is made at all".

If I wasn't confused before, I am now.

What happens to the sinner, the one who is blinded by the god of this world, is that their heart of stone is taken out, and a heart of flesh replaces it; they are literally born again of the Spirit so that their blinded eyes are opened to the beauty of Christ, and they follow Him.

No problem with that statement, so long as faith precedes salvation.

Regeneration precedes faith, the heart is changed, and the choices made reflect that change.

blessings,
Ken

Major problem with this statement.

Re 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him,

The calling (knock on door) goes out to man, but man must "open the door", that is believe the words of the spirit, THEN and only then, will Jesus come in and begin his work of regeneration.

Our "FAITH" in Jesus is the reason we're saved, and unless that faith is "present", (man opening the door) Preceding salvation, we are not regenerated. (Jesus doesn't come in)

"GOD" forgive sins, (regenerates) but for us to get God to forgive our sins we have to have a "mediator" with God, and we only get that mediator by faith in Jesus, this is why Jesus said;

No man comes "TO THE FATHER" except by me.

It's "Impossible" for God to forgive your sins, (regenerate) "BEFORE" you have faith in Jesus, the mediator of your sins with God.

This is why your statement: "Regeneration precedes faith"

is Totally wrong.

Regeneration before faith would not permit man a choice as you said, man would be regenerated, "BEFORE HE KNEW IT", and wouldn't know until he started having the symptoms of "faith".

This is like saying Jesus sneeked through the door, sup with you, then announced, HAY, I'm here.

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by epistemaniac:
Me4him you said </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />This is what calvin didn't consider when writing his doctrine, He gave no consideration at all to the OT

really? seems to me that he did, or didn't you know about Calvin's OT commentaries? They aren't hard to find... http://www.ccel.org/c/calvin/comment3/comm_index.htm

blessings,
Ken </font>[/QUOTE]I took a "quick peek", but to read all, no.

calvin doctrine, as you've said, states that the "spirit" must come in, regenerate, before a person will have faith,

but this can't explain how people believe when there is no "indwelling spirit" to regenerate, as was the case in the OT and will be during the trib.

The "Comforter", and it's "indwelling" is unique to the church, they didn't have it in the OT nor will they during the trib,

and it's this differences between the "presents/absents of indwelling" that Calvin's doctrine, based wholy on the "indwelling", won't stand.

 

[PrmtvBptst1832]

I could not let this go unnoticed.

Jesus said, "For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?" -Matt. 16:26 The word here translated "soul" is the Greek word "psuche." If losing one's soul/psuche, in the context of this verse, means being cast into hell, then we put ourselves in a dilemma. In the previous verse, Jesus said, "For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it." -Matt. 16:25 The word translated here as "life" is also the Greek word "psuche." If losing one's life/soul/psuche means being cast into hell, we have Jesus teaching us that in order to find one's life, he must be cast into hell because "...whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it." The Lord is here speaking about one's natural life. If we surrender our lives to His will, then we will find a life of joy and peace in His service. If we put ourselves and our desires first, we will lose the joy of our salvation and live a life of disappointment and defeat. Of course, this is instruction for God's elect, not the world.

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by PrmtvBptst1832:
I could not let this go unnoticed.

Jesus said, "For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?" -Matt. 16:26 The word here translated "soul" is the Greek word "psuche." If losing one's soul/psuche, in the context of this verse, means being cast into hell, then we put ourselves in a dilemma. In the previous verse, Jesus said, "For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it." -Matt. 16:25 The word translated here as "life" is also the Greek word "psuche." If losing one's life/soul/psuche means being cast into hell, we have Jesus teaching us that in order to find one's life, he must be cast into hell because "...whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it." The Lord is here speaking about one's natural life. If we surrender our lives to His will, then we will find a life of joy and peace in His service. If we put ourselves and our desires first, we will lose the joy of our salvation and live a life of disappointment and defeat. Of course, this is instruction for God's elect, not the world.

Of course, this is instruction for God's elect, not the world.

"For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it."

If it's only for the elect, how is it possible for one to save his life and lose it???

If you're elect, there's no possibility of losing your life.

Jesus was speaking to the lost people, if you save the life the flesh wants to live, you'll lose your soul,

but if you "sacrifice" the "old man flesh" and the life it want's to live so you can live for me, then you'll save your soul.

and what would it profit you if the flesh gained the whole world, and your soul is lost, in Hell, tormented, for eternity??

And why would Jesus "WARN" people about this if they didn't have a choice in the matter???

 

[epistemaniac]

Me4Him, you said

On the one hand, "Sovereign will/predestination" denies "ANY" decision by man,

Now you say, "Calling does not deny that a choice is made at all".

If I wasn't confused before, I am now.

Yep, "confused" is the operative word here

.... for the upteeneth millioneth time....

"Sovereign will/predestination" DOES NOT DENY THAT A CHOICE IS MADE

Choices are always made, the question is why and what kind of being is it that exercises these choices.

Passages that teach that regeneration precedes faith:

Eph 2:8-9 esv For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this (faith) is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
(9) not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Joh 1:12-13 esv But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,
(13) who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

2Ti 2:24-25 esv And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil,
(25) correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth,"
it is God who grants repentance....

1Th 2:13 HCSB Also, this is why we constantly thank God, because when you received the message about God that you heard from us, you welcomed it not as a human message, but as it truly is, the message of God, which also works effectively in you believers."
who does the word work effectively in?

Phi 1:29 esv For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake,"
both suffering and belief are granted by God...

Heb 2:10 HCSB For it was fitting, in bringing many sons to glory, that He, for whom and through whom all things exist, should make the source [3] of their salvation perfect through sufferings. (9)

Heb 12:2 HCSB keeping our eyes on Jesus, the source and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that lay before Him endured a cross and despised the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of God's throne."

Jesus is the author, source or originator of our faith....

1Jo 5:1 esv Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him.:
get that...? born of God.. not born of free will.
"In the New Testament God is clearly active, creating a people for himself by calling them out of darkness and enabling them to believe the gospel and walk in the light. John teaches most clearly that regeneration precedes and enables faith. "Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God" ...The verb tense make's john's intention unmistakable: Every one who goes on believing [present, continuous action] that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God [perfect, completed action with abiding effects]. " Faith is the evidence of new birth, not the cause of it."" (John Piper)

Rom 3:24 esv and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,"
justification is by grace, a gift ....

Eze 11:19-20 esv And I will give them one heart, and a new spirit I will put within them. I will remove the heart of stone from their flesh and give them a heart of flesh,
(20) that they may walk in my statutes and keep my rules and obey them. And they shall be my people, and I will be their God."

How does the new heart come? By God giving it... how does the spirit come? by God giving it... how does the heart of flesh come? by God giving it. how do people become God's people? by God giving them a new heart, the spirit, the heart of flesh, that is when God will be their God....

Eze 36:26-27 esv And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
(27) And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules. "

Over and over again it is God's "I Will" that precedes any ability to walk in His statues, it is His "I Will" that puts a new spirit weithin us, that gives us a hearet of flesh..it is He that removes our heart of stone, not us picking ourselves up by our own bootstraps....

Act 16:14 esv One who heard us was a woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple goods, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to pay attention to what was said by Paul."
Who opened Lydia's heart? Lydia?

blessings,
Ken

(see also http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/twoviews.html )

 

[epistemaniac]

Originally posted by Me4Him:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by epistemaniac:
Me4him you said </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />This is what calvin didn't consider when writing his doctrine, He gave no consideration at all to the OT

really? seems to me that he did, or didn't you know about Calvin's OT commentaries? They aren't hard to find... http://www.ccel.org/c/calvin/comment3/comm_index.htm

blessings,
Ken </font>[/QUOTE]I took a "quick peek", but to read all, no.

calvin doctrine, as you've said, states that the "spirit" must come in, regenerate, before a person will have faith,

but this can't explain how people believe when there is no "indwelling spirit" to regenerate, as was the case in the OT and will be during the trib.

The "Comforter", and it's "indwelling" is unique to the church, they didn't have it in the OT nor will they during the trib,

and it's this differences between the "presents/absents of indwelling" that Calvin's doctrine, based wholy on the "indwelling", won't stand. </font>[/QUOTE]ahhh... you took a "peek"... well then.. thats that... you have conducted your research and apparently do not want to be bothered by the facts ehhh?

the point here is this... you said "Calvin gives no consideration to the OT".. that is simply false....

so you are saying that people were saved in 2 different ways? one gospel for the NT and another for the OT? but I thought there was only one gospel and that all other gospels were false... that Abraham was saved by faith, and so are we....

blessings,
Ken

 

[PrmtvBptst1832]

In Matthew 16:25, 26 Jesus is not using the words "save" and "lose" in an eternal sense.

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by epistemaniac:
Me4Him, you said </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />On the one hand, "Sovereign will/predestination" denies "ANY" decision by man,

Now you say, "Calling does not deny that a choice is made at all".

If I wasn't confused before, I am now.

Yep, "confused" is the operative word here

.... for the upteeneth millioneth time....

"Sovereign will/predestination" DOES NOT DENY THAT A CHOICE IS MADE

Choices are always made, the question is why and what kind of being is it that exercises these choices.

Passages that teach that regeneration precedes faith:

Eph 2:8-9 esv For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this (faith) is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
(9) not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Joh 1:12-13 esv But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,
(13) who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

</font>[/QUOTE]Let's focus on this: the question is why and what kind of being is it that exercises these choices.

How about an "UN-regenerated" SINNER, why would a saved person call on God to save them???

Will "Faith" pay the wages of sin, if not, why do you equate faith as being the "GRACE" of Jesus dying for your sins???

People around the world have "faith in God", but will that faith save them apart from Jesus dying for their sins???

I don't think you know the different between faith and Grace.

The boast is about having the wages of your sins paid, not having faith, which is useless until the sins are paid.

People are free to believe whatever they chose to believe, Muslim, Buddist, Hindu, Christians, Catholic, Baptist, Calvin, Arminian, whatever, but Jesus told the woman at the well if we want to be saved we have to believe HIs doctrine, drink of the water (Knowledge of the lord) he supplied, and if we chose not to drink of his doctrine, (Unbelief) we won't be saved.

if you believe (faith), you'll be saved, if not, you won't, That's the gospel in a nutshell.

Joh 4:10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.

The woman believed Jesus.

Joh 4:29 Come, see a man, which told me all things that ever I did: is not this the Christ?

And so did many more.

Joh 4:40 So when the Samaritans were come unto him, they besought him that he would tarry with them: and he abode there two days.

41 And many more believed because of his own word;

Unless you believe Jesus doctrine, God won't save, so Faith in Jesus comes before remission of sins, (regenerated)

Like the woman at the well and is manifested in the world, people are free to believe whatever doctrine they chose, and Satan's spirit calls as many as God calls, but the final choice belong to man and for which he will be judged, sow/reap.

Mr 4:15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

1Jo 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God:

Ga 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by Me4Him:
How about an "UN-regenerated" SINNER, why would a saved person call on God to save them???

You're not making any sense.

Originally posted by Me4Him:
if you believe (faith), you'll be saved, if not, you won't, That's the gospel in a nutshell.

Yes it is. But the question is, why does one person believe and another not? Simply stating that "if you believe you'll be saved" doesn't answer that question.

This does answer that question:

For you are having been saved by grace through faith. And this [having been saved by grace through faith] is not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

You will find the same answer in the other scriptures quoted by epistimaniac, and there are many others, too. You focus on "if" one believes. We are showing you where scripture tells you "why" one believes.

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by npetreley:

Originally posted by Me4Him:
How about an "UN-regenerated" SINNER, why would a saved person call on God to save them???

You're not making any sense.

But the question is, why does one person believe and another not? Simply stating that "if you believe you'll be saved" doesn't answer that question.

We are showing you where scripture tells you "why" one believes.

What you're showing is "salvation (regeneration) before faith".

IF you are regenerated BEFORE you have FAITH, then "faith" IS NOT a PREREQUISITE to being saved.

Sheee, I knew calvinist looked at the scriptures "backwards", but I'll have to award you "first Prize" for this one.

The following situation could not exit under calvin's doctrine.

Mr 4:15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.


These people heard the calling of God, (word) and the "lust of the flesh/Satan, and who made the choice of which to follow, God/Satan, No, the person chose to submit to the Flesh/satan rather than God.

Ro 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Ga 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

God's will is that all men be saved, but the will of all men is not the same as "God's will", and as is very obvious, God's will isn't "enforced" (sovereign) in this area.

[ May 20, 2006, 01:36 PM: Message edited by: Me4Him ]

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by Me4Him:
What you're showing is "salvation (regeneration) before faith".

IF you are regenerated BEFORE you have FAITH, then "faith" IS NOT a PREREQUISITE to being saved.

Huh? Who are you arguing with? Sometimes I think you just make up stuff in order to "refute" it. You don't seem to respond to what anyone actually says. You respond to some bizarre twisted version of what they say, maybe, but not to what they actually say. Either you have no substance to refute what people are saying, or you simply aren't reading what they're saying.

This having been saved by grace through faith is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God.

Where in that sentence do you read that regeneration saves you? Why does anyone bother discussing things with you, anyway? Why do I?

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by npetreley:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Me4Him:
What you're showing is "salvation (regeneration) before faith".

IF you are regenerated BEFORE you have FAITH, then "faith" IS NOT a PREREQUISITE to being saved.

Huh? Who are you arguing with? Sometimes I think you just make up stuff in order to "refute" it. You don't seem to respond to what anyone actually says. You respond to some bizarre twisted version of what they say, maybe, but not to what they actually say. Either you have no substance to refute what people are saying, or you simply aren't reading what they're saying.

This having been saved by grace through faith is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God.

Where in that sentence do you read that regeneration saves you? Why does anyone bother discussing things with you, anyway? Why do I? </font>[/QUOTE]Is your "oldtimers" talking hold,

First you say a person is regenerated (saved) before they have faith,

Now you say "Where in that sentence do you read that regeneration saves you?".

I would loan you some of my "oldtimer medicine" but I ran out and can't remember the name of it to order some more, but it "works".


Kinda reminds me of a barroom door, you're swinging both directions.

 

[Brother Bob]

Same invitation the Lord give.

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by Me4Him:
First you say a person is regenerated (saved) before they have faith,

No, you said that, not me. It's one of those things you make up in order to disprove them. I may have said somewhere that you must be regenerated to have faith, but I never said you are saved by regeneration. You inserted that ridiculous assumption in order to appear to defeat it.

Originally posted by Me4Him:
Now you say "Where in that sentence do you read that regeneration saves you?".

I would loan you some of my "oldtimer medicine" but I ran out and can't remember the name of it to order some more, but it "works".


Kinda reminds me of a barroom door, you're swinging both directions.

Again, who are you arguing with and what are you talking about?

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by npetreley:
Again, who are you arguing with and what are you talking about?

Why are you asking me, I'm the one "confused"???