Decisional JUSTIFICATION - Sovereign SANCTIFICATION

[skypair]

Hey y'all

This comes from another thread where it doesn't seem to be getting the attention if deserves (maybe because some think it is off topic).

The point of this "model" is to show that before one can be sanctified by the indwelling spirit, one MUST be reconciled to God. There just is no other basis upon which God would "gift" the Spirit, give eternal life, gift faith, etc.! We're talking about establishing a RELATIONSHIP before He treats us like sons!

Now when people wonder how we are reconciled to God, it is through BELIEVING the gospel of Jesus Christ. What does the gospel say? "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved."

"But how shall they believe who have not heard?" Paul answers, "By preaching."

So now someone says, "They can hear preaching but they can't understand it." That's silly!! Everyone has a soul (conscience) that has chosen to be "dead" to God on account of sin but a spirit (intellect, emotions, will) that is alive and capable of processing "propositions" of all sorts. Doesn't Rom 1:19-20 say that EVERYONE can "wrap their mind around" the notion that there is a Godhead? That they are "without excuse" in not seeking Him? That God is in the business of revealing Himself to ALL so that they might not "perish."

So here's the "plan of salvation:" Receive Christ and "be ye reconciled to God" is "step #1" in salvation. That REQUIRES choice/decision on your part and it redeems your soul for eternity in heaven with God. (So when you as ambassadors are sharing Christ with the lost, DECISION is the aim of your preaching, 2Cor 5:17-6:2.)

"Step #2" is that God sovereignly, as His word promises, GIVES the believer the indwelling Spirit, eternal life, the gift of faith, the gifts of the Spirit, etc. unto SANCTIFICATION of the spirit of the saint.

"Step #3" is GLORIFICATION of the body in the rapture.

I've been on this "mission" for 2 years trying to simplify the explanation of what the Bible has to say about getting saved. Please let me know if there is anything I missed or that you still don't understand. raying:

skypair

 

[annsni]

John 6:44 says ""No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day."

I see even the decision is started by God's prompting.

 

[skypair]

I see even the decision is started by God's prompting.

Absolutely! His "drawing."

skypair

 

[AresMan]

Absolutely! His "drawing."

skypair

And this drawing (helkuo) is effectual, which I am sure you would vehemently deny.

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Joh 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Joh 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

The following are characteristic of everyone who will be raised up at the last day:
1. They cannot come unless they are drawn by the Father.
2. Those who are drawn by the Father are taught by the Father.
3. Those who are taught by the Father (hence, learn from the Father), He then gives to the Son.
4. All those whom He gives to the Son will come.
5. Of those whom He gives to the Son (and hence come), none will be lost.
6. All those who come believe on the Son.

It seems that God is ultimately responsible for the fact that people believe on the Son. The reason that they do this is because of God's effectual drawing; not the other way around. Romans 8:28-34 also clearly shows that all of salvation is God's work from start to finish.

The word draw in John 6:44 is the following:

G1670
ἑλκύω, ἕλκω
helkuō helkō
hel-koo'-o, hel'-ko
Probably akin to G138; to drag (literally or figuratively): - draw. Compare G1667.

Other verses using this word show the effectual nature of this action. These are not "woos" or "beckons," but actions that accomplish intentions.

Peter draws his sword (John 18:10).
Peter drew the net of fishes to land (John 21:11).
The masters of a divining woman caught Paul and Silas and drew them before the rulers (Acts 16:19).
The people of the city drew Paul out of the temple and closed the doors (Acts 21:30).
Rich people draw you into court (James 2:6).

 

[Rippon]

Amen AresMan! I didn't want to waste space by copying your post.You made so much biblical sense.The unspoken response by those on the other side of the aisle:"Perfectly reasonable -- therefore totally unacceptable."

 

[skypair]

And this drawing (helkuo) is effectual, which I am sure you would vehemently deny.

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

The man who comes -- the man who is JUSTIFIED with God -- will be raised up, yes.

Joh 6:45 ... Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Yes, every man that has actually learned takes the knowledge God taught him and repents unto JUSTIFICATION/RECONCILIATION with God.

Joh 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.[/quote] God gives the Son BELIEVERS, the JUST -- not unbelievers. How do you get around that those who come or are taught are not believers?

Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

There it is right there. God draws all and some believe. It is already JUSTIFIED BELIEVERS that come to/are given to Christ and His kingdom.

One day Christ is going to give them back to the Father's kingdom. Do you know what that looks like? God gave BELIEVERS to Christ for sanctification on this earth. When we are raptured, we are given back into God's perfect kingdom by the Son. Do you see how this "giving" and "coming" works now?

The following are characteristic of everyone who will be raised up at the last day:
1. They cannot come unless they are drawn by the Father.
2. Those who are drawn by the Father are taught by the Father.
3. Those who are taught by the Father (hence, learn from the Father), He then gives to the Son.

Here's where the issue comes to a head, Ares. If ya haven't learnt anything to believe in, ya ain't gonna repent and ya ain't goin' into the kingdom of the Son. Ya know what the sign is that ya learnt somethin'? You're reconciled with God -- ya believe on Him.

Cause remember, they didn't have a Jesus in the OT. And the OT folks that believed on God, they have yet to be given into Jesus earthly kingdom for sanctification. So Jesus, when He said all these things you quote, was "covering" 2 situations: 1) OT who would be resurrected and come to Christ that way and 2) NT saints who would enter into Christ during this life on earth.

It seems that God is ultimately responsible for the fact that people believe on the Son.

It seems that way IF one accepts that "drawing" means "dragging!" :laugh:

The reason that they do this is because of God's effectual drawing;...

Show me that phrase in scripture and that it wasn't just made up by some man and I'll be obliged to believe you.

...Romans 8:28-34 also clearly shows that all of salvation is God's work from start to finish.

Well, sure it is! No God -- no salvation. That doesn't mean that because there is a God that all are saved. That would be saying that God could save everyone but is a respecter on only certain ones.

I realize this is new information that you haven't really given any thought or credence to before now. So take some time to consider OT justification (belief in God) vs. NT justification-sanctification combined (belief in God and Christ). In the NT, God gives believers in Him over to Christ for sanctification. At the rapture, Christ gives them back to God for glorification. Does that help?

skypair

 

[Pastor Larry]

There it is right there. God draws all and some believe. It is already JUSTIFIED BELIEVERS that come to/are given to Christ and His kingdom.

Sorry, I missed it. Where was this again?

 

[annsni]

Well, sure it is! No God -- no salvation. That doesn't mean that because there is a God that all are saved. That would be saying that God could save everyone but is a respecter on only certain ones.

Romans 9:14-18

"14What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! 15For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." 18So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills."

 

[DHK]

Amen AresMan! I didn't want to waste space by copying your post.You made so much biblical sense.The unspoken response by those on the other side of the aisle:"Perfectly reasonable -- therefore totally unacceptable."

I've seen it from my own pulpit; God drawing some individuals to Himself--very definitely under conviction of the Holy Spirit. But they resisted that drawing. They resisted the grace of God. They were not saved in spite of the grace of the God.
As it so clearly says in Acts chapter seven:

Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

They resisted the Holy Spirit, and were not saved, in spite of the drawing of God.
So also have many today.

Thus I don't not believe in irresistable grace; it can be resisted.

 

[Pastor Larry]

I've seen it from my own pulpit; God drawing some individuals to Himself--very definitely under conviction of the Holy Spirit. But they resisted that drawing. They resisted the grace of God. They were not saved in spite of the grace of the God.

As you are well aware (or at least should be), that is a red herring. The biblical doctrine of effectual calling does not teach that no one resists the gospel or the grace of God.

 

[DHK]

As you are well aware (or at least should be), that is a red herring. The biblical doctrine of effectual calling does not teach that no one resists the gospel or the grace of God.

Actually I am not Larry. As far as I understood the doctrine, and please correct me if I am wrong, that the name implies just what it says: that grace is irresistable. Thus those ones to whom the grace of God came to should have been the elect, and should have been saved, if grace is irresistable. I am not a Calvinist. And there are many things that I do not understand about Calvinism. But the name in itself implies that grace cannot be resisted. Stephen's entire message states that it can. So where have I gone wrong?

 

[sag38]

I'm like DHK. How is this a "red herring?" This is a legitimate argument that in no way detracts from the original argument. Either you can resist God's grace or you can't. And, I'll take the Bible's word for it just as DHK pointed out that God's grace can be resisted. In fact, how can there be the "unpardonable sin" is one cannot resist the truth?

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Actually I am not Larry. As far as I understood the doctrine, and please correct me if I am wrong, that the name implies just what it says: that grace is irresistable. Thus those ones to whom the grace of God came to should have been the elect, and should have been saved, if grace is irresistable. I am not a Calvinist. And there are many things that I do not understand about Calvinism. But the name in itself implies that grace cannot be resisted. Stephen's entire message states that it can. So where have I gone wrong?

Are you saying you have derived your understanding of what is called irresistable grace from the mere words?

RB

 

[DHK]

Are you saying you have derived your understanding of what is called irresistable grace from the mere words?

RB

More or less. I have heard Calvinism presented more from the non-Calvinist point of view than from the Calvinist himself. So, from the words itself it would appear that grace is irresistable.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

More or less. I have heard Calvinism presented more from the non-Calvinist point of view than from the Calvinist himself. So, from the words itself it would appear that grace is irresistable.

wow. Please accept my request that you read a bit more what Calvinists mean by it.

http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/piper/irresistable.html
John Piper

http://www.the-highway.com/Irresistible_Murray.html
John Murray

and this one was interesting
http://www.oldpaths.com/Archive/Feenstra/C/A/1931/ch04.html

 

[DHK]

wow. Please accept my request that you read a bit more what Calvinists mean by it.

At best it is circular reasoning. To those that are/were the elect grace was irresistable.
If they are not the elect then grace can be resisted (Acts 7).
Clearly they were not of the elect in Acts 7 because they were able to resist the grace of God. If they were of the elect they would not have been able to resist the grace of God. It is all circular reasoning. Illogical.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

At best it is circular reasoning. To those that are/were the elect grace was irresistable.
If they are not the elect then grace can be resisted (Acts 7).
Clearly they were not of the elect in Acts 7 because they were able to resist the grace of God. If they were of the elect they would not have been able to resist the grace of God. It is all circular reasoning. Illogical.

Did you read though any of the articles?

 

[DHK]

Did you read though any of the articles?

Yes, I read through most of Piper's, but found it terribly annoying because of his constant taking Scripture out of context. It was easily refutable.

I skipped the second, and went to the last. It was well organized, but that was the article where he seemed to keep going in circles. We are saved because we are the elect. We are the elect because we are saved. etc. etc.
I know I am saved because I was given a choice. I chose, out of my own free will to put my faith and trust in the shed blood of the Lord Jesus Christ. Yes, the drawing of the Holy Spirit was there. But it was not irresistable. It still remained my choice.

 

[skypair]

Sorry, I missed it. Where was this again?

John 6 -- John 1:9, Rom 1:19-20, Rom 2:14-15, etc. Want more?

skypair

 

[skypair]

Romans 9:14-18

"14What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! 15For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." 18So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills."

Ann,

Thank you for reminding my how you apply this verse. In fact, God giving "mercy" is an earthly display of God's goodness. This does not relate to "grace" and eternal salvaion.

skypair