Decisional JUSTIFICATION - Sovereign SANCTIFICATION

[skypair]

I've seen it from my own pulpit; God drawing some individuals to Himself--very definitely under conviction of the Holy Spirit. But they resisted that drawing. They resisted the grace of God. They were not saved in spite of the grace of the God.
As it so clearly says in Acts chapter seven:

Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

They resisted the Holy Spirit, and were not saved, in spite of the drawing of God.
So also have many today.

Thus I don't not believe in irresistable grace; it can be resisted.

Well, Praise GOD!!! At least someone can inject some good sense into this discussion!

skypair

 

[skypair]

As you are well aware (or at least should be), that is a red herring. The biblical doctrine of effectual calling does not teach that no one resists the gospel or the grace of God.

Nor does the Bible teach that the 'elect' never resist the gospel or grace of God.

How, in your opinion, does an 'elect' person resist grace? Was God's grace then "ineffectual?" How many times did YOU resist grace and the gospel? Or are you saying that you and every other 'elect' person you know of were saved the instant they heard the gospel? Does resisting grace indicate that the one who does so, even once, is condemned to reprobation?

And BTW, "effectual calling" is NOT a biblical doctrine. It is a Calvinist doctrine. Please don't get the 2 confused. There is NO phrase "effectual calling" in scripture, PL.

skypair

 

[skypair]

RB,

More specifically irresistible grace refers to the sovereign work of God to overcome the rebellion of our heart and bring us to faith in Christ so that we can be saved. If our doctrine of total depravity is true, there can be no salvation without the reality of irresistible grace. If we are dead in our sins, totally unable to submit to God, then we will never believe in Christ unless God overcomes our rebellion.

Well, it ain't true! Just like "irresistible grace," it was "reverse engineered" and then "shoe-horned" into a theology that already existed without the fancy terminology.

Ya see, the Pharisees thought they were "elect" and "chosen," too. They believed everything that "Moses and the prophets" taught and they were, after all, the children of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. What did THEY do to be chosen? Nothing! And they even had their own set of "Lordship" rules -- 613 of them that the called the Talmud, I believe. Weren't they surprised when Jesus showed up!! :saint:

I hate to get sarcastic like this but the Pharisees didn't understand what they read in scripture either. They were "fakin' it." God's Spirit had long since left their temple, Ezek 8-9. Their "truth" and faith was of their own invention.

Wake up, RB! Unless you are reconciled to God in Christ (JUSTIFIED by your own choosing), all the sanctification and all the discipleship in the world is not going to save you! You and your buddies been "fishin' around" long enough on this issue of "What must we do?!" You must be JUSTIFIED with God and He will give you to Christ and eternal life and Holy Spirit indwelling and new birth ..[personal attack edited]

skypair

 

[ReformedBaptist]

RB,

Well, it ain't true! Just like "irresistible grace," it was "reverse engineered" and then "shoe-horned" into a theology that already existed without the fancy terminology.

Ya see, the Pharisees thought they were "elect" and "chosen," too. They believed everything that "Moses and the prophets" taught and they were, after all, the children of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. What did THEY do to be chosen? Nothing! And they even had their own set of "Lordship" rules -- 613 of them that the called the Talmud, I believe. Weren't they surprised when Jesus showed up!! :saint:

I hate to get sarcastic like this but the Pharisees didn't understand what they read in scripture either. They were "fakin' it." God's Spirit had long since left their temple, Ezek 8-9. Their "truth" and faith was of their own invention.

Wake up, RB! Unless you are reconciled to God in Christ (JUSTIFIED by your own choosing), all the sanctification and all the discipleship in the world is not going to save you! You and your buddies been "fishin' around" long enough on this issue of "What must we do?!" You must be JUSTIFIED with God and He will give you to Christ and eternal life and Holy Spirit indwelling and new birth ..[personal attack edited]

skypair

Your reply is so viral that you have questioned my salvation and had to edit your own personal attacks on me. I think you need to stop and examine your own heart before trying to examine mine.

The doctrines of God's grace are the doctrines of Holy Scripture.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Yes, I read through most of Piper's, but found it terribly annoying because of his constant taking Scripture out of context. It was easily refutable.

I skipped the second, and went to the last. It was well organized, but that was the article where he seemed to keep going in circles. We are saved because we are the elect. We are the elect because we are saved. etc. etc.
I know I am saved because I was given a choice. I chose, out of my own free will to put my faith and trust in the shed blood of the Lord Jesus Christ. Yes, the drawing of the Holy Spirit was there. But it was not irresistable. It still remained my choice.

wow, you have much to boast about.

RB

 

[skypair]

Your reply is so viral that you have questioned my salvation and had to edit your own personal attacks on me.

"Edit my attacks?" You are imagining things, bro.

The doctrines of God's grace are the doctrines of Holy Scripture.

If that is the case, you will have no problem proving it. This thread is about what it takes to be saved. You have said numerous tiimes that you are uncertain as to the "mechanics" of salvation, the ordo saludis, etc. You have told me that there are certain things that God does and certain things that we do but you have not related "cause and effect" so far as I can see.

Let's start then with "irresistible grace." Where are those words used together in scripture? Or, another term I took exception to, "total depravity." Let's get it out and prove whether it be of scripture or of men, shall we?

skypair

 

[ReformedBaptist]

So here's the "plan of salvation:" Receive Christ and "be ye reconciled to God" is "step #1" in salvation. That REQUIRES choice/decision on your part and it redeems your soul for eternity in heaven with God. (So when you as ambassadors are sharing Christ with the lost, DECISION is the aim of your preaching, 2Cor 5:17-6:2.)

Skypair,

I am quite surprised I didn't take notice of this. But now that I have I wanted to reply that this statement is so antichristian and antichrist I can't believe I have read this from a Christian.

This kind of gospel preaching I personally classify as heresy equal to the errors of Rome, perhaps worse. I classify it as heresy because I see it as being damnable.

It is utterly man-centered puting the focus of redemption on man on the man himself to make a decision, and even more disgusting, putting the focus of our preaching on decision.

The center and focus of our preaching brethren must be Christ and Him crucified and the "it" that redeems our soul is NOT our faith. "It" is a He, and He is Jesus Christ alone.

RB

 

[ReformedBaptist]

"Edit my attacks?" You are imagining things, bro.

If that is the case, you will have no problem proving it. This thread is about what it takes to be saved. You have said numerous tiimes that you are uncertain as to the "mechanics" of salvation, the ordo saludis, etc. You have told me that there are certain things that God does and certain things that we do but you have not related "cause and effect" so far as I can see.

Let's start then with "irresistible grace." Where are those words used together in scripture? Or, another term I took exception to, "total depravity." Let's get it out and prove whether it be of scripture or of men, shall we?

skypair

I am not imagining things. You wrote:

Wake up, RB! Unless you are reconciled to God in Christ (JUSTIFIED by your own choosing), all the sanctification and all the discipleship in the world is not going to save you! You and your buddies been "fishin' around" long enough on this issue of "What must we do?!" You must be JUSTIFIED with God and He will give you to Christ and eternal life and Holy Spirit indwelling and new birth ..[personal attack edited]

Are you saying your words that read "personal attack edited" are not your own?

RB

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Let's start then with "irresistible grace." Where are those words used together in scripture? Or, another term I took exception to, "total depravity." Let's get it out and prove whether it be of scripture or of men, shall we?

skypair

I will show you where those phrases appear in the text of Scripture when you show where the word "Trinity" appears in Scripture.

RB

 

[DHK]

Skypair,

I am quite surprised I didn't take notice of this. But now that I have I wanted to reply that this statement is so antichristian and antichrist I can't believe I have read this from a Christian.

This kind of gospel preaching I personally classify as heresy equal to the errors of Rome, perhaps worse. I classify it as heresy because I see it as being damnable.
RB

Damnable and heresy are strong words.
The quote being referred to is this:

So here's the "plan of salvation:" Receive Christ and "be ye reconciled to God" is "step #1" in salvation. That REQUIRES choice/decision on your part and it redeems your soul for eternity in heaven with God. (So when you as ambassadors are sharing Christ with the lost, DECISION is the aim of your preaching, 2Cor 5:17-6:2.)

It is no doubt a summary and not the whole.
If it is receiving Christ that is the focus, then Christ is the object, not man.

RB, could you please explain very concisely how you would go about leading a soul to Christ. You believe in personal evangelism, don't you?

 

[DHK]

wow, you have much to boast about.

RB

I know I am saved because I was given a choice. I chose, out of my own free will to put my faith and trust in the shed blood of the Lord Jesus Christ. Yes, the drawing of the Holy Spirit was there. But it was not irresistable. It still remained my choice.

My "boast" (glory) is in the Lord who gave himself for me,
and paid the debt for all my sin to set me free.
For me he lives; For me he dies,
And everlasting life and light he freely gives.

CONSIDER him the author and finisher of our faith....
I considered. I believed. I was saved.

 

[AresMan]

I will show you where those phrases appear in the text of Scripture when you show where the word "Trinity" appears in Scripture.

Or "free will."

 

[DHK]

Or "free will."

John 8:36 If therefore the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed. (WEB)

 

[AresMan]

RB, could you please explain very concisely how you would go about leading a soul to Christ. You believe in personal evangelism, don't you?

We should preach the depravity of man and necessity of repentance and faith in the divine Person and substitutionary work of Jesus Christ for salvation. The Bible commands Gospel preaching.
One should also understand that God gets the credit for applying His Word and effectually drawing people to Him. The Bible also explains this.

 

[DHK]

We should preach the depravity of man and necessity of repentance and faith in the divine Person and substitutionary work of Jesus Christ for salvation. The Bible commands Gospel preaching.
One should also understand that God gets the credit for applying His Word and effectually drawing people to Him. The Bible also explains this.

You are far from answering the question I asked.
Most people I talk to are Biblically illiterate. The Bible has its own vocabulary, and the unsaved don't have a clue what most of those words mean:
"depravity, substitutionary, effectual, and even repentance."
Those are the words you used.

How would you lead a soul to Christ (witness to him)? Not how would you preach a soul to Christ.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

John 8:36 If therefore the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed. (WEB)

:laugh: :laugh:

Nice try though. lol

RB

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Damnable and heresy are strong words.
The quote being referred to is this:
It is no doubt a summary and not the whole.
If it is receiving Christ that is the focus, then Christ is the object, not man.

RB, could you please explain very concisely how you would go about leading a soul to Christ. You believe in personal evangelism, don't you?

I am hoping that is not what he meant, but he is usally pretty straightforward about his beliefs. And if that is the case, I see it as a damnable heresy. Why would you question whether or not I believe in "personal evangelism" ?

Concisely, I follow this example:

"Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ." Acts 20:21

 

[ReformedBaptist]

DHK,

You wrote,

I considered. I believed. I was saved.

Please understand I am not questioning your faith.

Why did you consider? Why did you believe? Why are you saved?

RB

 

[Rippon]

I've seen it from my own pulpit; God drawing some individuals to Himself--very definitely under conviction of the Holy Spirit. But they resisted that drawing. They resisted the grace of God. They were not saved in spite of the grace of the God.

Pity.God tried;but He wasn't successful.Man's will trumps God's.What a wretched theology.

In reality God gets the ones He wants -- the ones He has elected from before the foundation of the world.

Your understanding of 'drawing' is in conflict with the biblical presentation.In the Bible drawing is always toward completion -- toward saving union with Christ.

"Not saved in spite of the grace of God" is plain wrong,anti-biblical thinking.God's grace,as the Scriptures affirm is greater than your scripturally-challenged view.

One can be 'under conviction' yet it may not be God's will to save those individuals.The Lord's purposes,ways,thoughts are higher than our own.It may be that the Lord wants them to be under conviction for a time to suffer greater condemnation.

 

[Lukasaurus]

Ezr 7:13 I make a decree, that all they of the people of Israel, and of his priests and Levites, in my realm, which are minded of their own freewill to go up to Jerusalem, go with thee.

Lev 22:18 Speak unto Aaron, and to his sons, and unto all the children of Israel, and say unto them, Whatsoever he be of the house of Israel, or of the strangers in Israel, that will offer his oblation for all his vows, and for all his freewill offerings, which they will offer unto the LORD for a burnt offering;

Lev 22:21 And whosoever offereth a sacrifice of peace offerings unto the LORD to accomplish his vow, or a freewill offering in beeves or sheep, it shall be perfect to be accepted; there shall be no blemish therein.

Lev 22:23 Either a bullock or a lamb that hath any thing superfluous or lacking in his parts, that mayest thou offer for a freewill offering; but for a vow it shall not be accepted.

Num 15:3 And will make an offering by fire unto the LORD, a burnt offering, or a sacrifice in performing a vow, or in a freewill offering, or in your solemn feasts, to make a sweet savour unto the LORD, of the herd, or of the flock:

Psa 119:108 Accept, I beseech thee, the freewill offerings of my mouth, O LORD, and teach me thy judgments.

Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. (Don't give me that rubbish about a sign over Heaven's gate)