Decisional JUSTIFICATION - Sovereign SANCTIFICATION

[ReformedBaptist]

Ezr 7:13 I make a decree, that all they of the people of Israel, and of his priests and Levites, in my realm, which are minded of their own freewill to go up to Jerusalem, go with thee.

Lev 22:18 Speak unto Aaron, and to his sons, and unto all the children of Israel, and say unto them, Whatsoever he be of the house of Israel, or of the strangers in Israel, that will offer his oblation for all his vows, and for all his freewill offerings, which they will offer unto the LORD for a burnt offering;

Lev 22:21 And whosoever offereth a sacrifice of peace offerings unto the LORD to accomplish his vow, or a freewill offering in beeves or sheep, it shall be perfect to be accepted; there shall be no blemish therein.

Lev 22:23 Either a bullock or a lamb that hath any thing superfluous or lacking in his parts, that mayest thou offer for a freewill offering; but for a vow it shall not be accepted.

Num 15:3 And will make an offering by fire unto the LORD, a burnt offering, or a sacrifice in performing a vow, or in a freewill offering, or in your solemn feasts, to make a sweet savour unto the LORD, of the herd, or of the flock:

Psa 119:108 Accept, I beseech thee, the freewill offerings of my mouth, O LORD, and teach me thy judgments.

Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. (Don't give me that rubbish about a sign over Heaven's gate)

Your reply comes accross as if the doctrine of election and predestination to life are against the will of man. How is then that two very old calvinist confessions, the London Baptist Confession and the Westminister, have a chapter on free will?

It's not that the Calvinist denies free will, or human volition. We understand it differently, and believe our understanding comes from Scripture. I see nothing in the verses you presented as opposed to the doctrines of grace or predestination.

Take Revelation 22:17 for example. The word freely there has no reference at all to free will, but to the free offer of the Gospel. To the "whosoever will" I reply with a hearty AMEN! But tell me, since you seem to press for a libertarian freewill, who is the one that hears? Where are the thirsty? Who is the one that does come to Jesus to take the water of life freely?

RB

PS. The sign over the door "rubbish" as you call it was either from Spurgeon or Bunyan. Neither one of those men would I call their ministry rubbish.

 

[AresMan]

You are far from answering the question I asked.
Most people I talk to are Biblically illiterate. The Bible has its own vocabulary, and the unsaved don't have a clue what most of those words mean:
"depravity, substitutionary, effectual, and even repentance."
Those are the words you used.

How would you lead a soul to Christ (witness to him)? Not how would you preach a soul to Christ.

Who says that I meant to use those exact words? If I did, then I would have italicized them as terms. I meant the general message that such terms embody.

Here, in simpler terms:

1. Everyone is born in sin, is a sinner by nature, willfully sins, does not seek God, and cannot save himself (Rom 3:10-12). No one is perfect; everyone makes mistakes; this is because everyone is a sinner. Get him to realize that he is a sinner.
2. God demands perfection. Everyone is guilty of breaking God's law (Rom 3:19, 23; Ecc 7:20). No one can be saved by keeping the law or any good works (Rom 3:20). Get him to realize that he cannot save himself.
3. There is a penalty for sin--death and eternal separation from God (Rom 5:12; 6:23). Get him to recognize that there is a penalty for sin.
4. Jesus Christ (God in the flesh) died on the Cross as a substitute for sinners, which we all are (Rom 5:8,15,19; Luk 5:32; I Tim 1:15). Get him to realize a Substitute.
5. Is it through faith in the death and resurrection of Christ that one is saved (Rom 3:28; 4:5; Gal 2:16; Joh 3:16; Acts 16:31; Rom 4:5; Eph 2:8-9). Get him to realize that the work of the Substitute is completely sufficient to pay his sin debt and justify him for God so that he can go to heaven.

Of course, any conversation can go in any direction; I couldn't always stick to a precise formula or order of verses.

 

[Lukasaurus]

It may be that the Lord wants them to be under conviction for a time to suffer greater condemnation.

Now this.. this is WRETCHED theology. So in this case, your lord IS willing that they should perish, and he doesn't give them any grace, so he can condemn them for not accepting his grace.

Your god is willing that billions perish, at his whim.. oh sorry.. for his sovereign pleasure.

 

[Lukasaurus]

Your reply comes accross as if the doctrine of election and predestination to life are against the will of man. How is then that two very old calvinist confessions, the London Baptist Confession and the Westminister, have a chapter on free will?

It's not that the Calvinist denies free will, or human volition. We understand it differently, and believe our understanding comes from Scripture. I see nothing in the verses you presented as opposed to the doctrines of grace or predestination.

Take Revelation 22:17 for example. The word freely there has no reference at all to free will, but to the free offer of the Gospel. To the "whosoever will" I reply with a hearty AMEN! But tell me, since you seem to press for a libertarian freewill, who is the one that hears? Where are the thirsty? Who is the one that does come to Jesus to take the water of life freely?

RB

PS. The sign over the door "rubbish" as you call it was either from Spurgeon or Bunyan. Neither one of those men would I call their ministry rubbish.

Someone asked to see a verse in the Bible about free will. I showed seven. You understand freewill like this. I do understand calvinism. I used to be one.

Man has freewill to act according to his nature. Since man is totally depraved, man can only act freely in according to his nature and neither seeks God, nor wants God. Because man is totally inable to come to God, God must first regenerate the sinner, and overcome his sinful state, after which the sinner is free to believe the gospel, because he has no choice but to follow his new nature.

I may not have it down very eloquently, but that's pretty much it.

Brother, I love Dr Ruckman, but I tell you, his "Black is Beautiful" book is rubbish. Waste of time to read. I don't care that it's a man that I respect. The book is dumb. I respect Spurgeon and Bunyan. Pilgrim's Progress is a good book. Spurgeon's devotions are mostly good. But they are not infallible.

So whoever said the whosoever will/predestined from the foundation of the world comment on Heaven's gate was wrong, and the comment is rubbish.

 

[Lukasaurus]

What's the point of this arguing.

I'm not ecumenical at all - so I am not going to promote a "lets all get together" attitude.

It's not very edifying for me to argue, so I am leaving. The rest of you should probably do the same thing, seeing as nobody gets anywhere with internet debates, and it doesn't honour God.

God bless
In Christ
Luke

 

[ReformedBaptist]

What's the point of this arguing.

I'm not ecumenical at all - so I am not going to promote a "lets all get together" attitude.

It's not very edifying for me to argue, so I am leaving. The rest of you should probably do the same thing, seeing as nobody gets anywhere with internet debates, and it doesn't honour God.

God bless
In Christ
Luke

God bless you brother.

RB

 

[DHK]

Who says that I meant to use those exact words? If I did, then I would have italicized them as terms. I meant the general message that such terms embody.

Here, in simpler terms:

1. Everyone is born in sin, is a sinner by nature, willfully sins, does not seek God, and cannot save himself (Rom 3:10-12). No one is perfect; everyone makes mistakes; this is because everyone is a sinner. Get him to realize that he is a sinner.
2. God demands perfection. Everyone is guilty of breaking God's law (Rom 3:19, 23; Ecc 7:20). No one can be saved by keeping the law or any good works (Rom 3:20). Get him to realize that he cannot save himself.
3. There is a penalty for sin--death and eternal separation from God (Rom 5:12; 6:23). Get him to recognize that there is a penalty for sin.
4. Jesus Christ (God in the flesh) died on the Cross as a substitute for sinners, which we all are (Rom 5:8,15,19; Luk 5:32; I Tim 1:15). Get him to realize a Substitute.
5. Is it through faith in the death and resurrection of Christ that one is saved (Rom 3:28; 4:5; Gal 2:16; Joh 3:16; Acts 16:31; Rom 4:5; Eph 2:8-9). Get him to realize that the work of the Substitute is completely sufficient to pay his sin debt and justify him for God so that he can go to heaven.

Of course, any conversation can go in any direction; I couldn't always stick to a precise formula or order of verses.

This more of what I was asking. Thanks. I don't disagree with anything you have said. Let's look at the last statement you made.

Get him to realize that the work of the Substitute is completely sufficient to pay his sin debt and justify him for God so that he can go to heaven.

Once he has realized that he is a sinner, that the work of the Substitute is completely sufficient to pay his sin debt and justify him for God so that he can to to heaven, then what?
Then he must choose. Correct? Of his own free will he must choose to accept or reject Christ as Saviour. You have done an adequate job of explaining salvation. Now it is up to Him to decide. The Holy Spirit can't "coerce" him into making a decision. Grace isn't irresistable, not even at this point.

 

[Rippon]

So in this case, your lord IS willing that they should perish, and he doesn't give them any grace, so he can condemn them for not accepting his grace.

Your god is willing that billions perish, at his whim.. oh sorry.. for his sovereign pleasure.

The Lord wills that his elect not perish.

When the Bible says that the Lord gave them over to a depraved mind -- to shameful lusts etc. -- Do you think those folks were on their way to glory or perdition?Exactly,the latter.

When Scripture declares that some are objects of His wrath,prepared for destruction -- isn't their destiny everlasting condemnation?See Romans 9:22 and Phil.3:19.

You have to keep in mind two things -- the Lord's kindness and His severity ( see Romans 11:22)

Does He give His grace to all,or some specific people?If He does not give His grace to some -- then that is His right as God. It's perfectly just.

When we declare the Gospel of God to some aren't we the smell of death to them?Yes,we are.Why?Because they are perishing.See 2 Cor.2:15,16.

Is the name of everyone who has ever,and shall ever live written in the Lamb's Book of Life?Or are some names written by the Lord Himself before any person ever existed?

The Lord appointed some to receive mercy and others to receive wrath.See Romans 9:18 and 1 Thess.5:9 for examples.

Do you believe the Word of God when it declares that God sends some a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and hence be condemned?See 2 Thess.2:11,12.

 

[Ed Edwards]

What's the point of this arguing.

I'm not ecumenical at all - so I am not going to promote a "lets all get together" attitude.

It's not very edifying for me to argue, so I am leaving. The rest of you should probably do the same thing, seeing as nobody gets anywhere with internet debates, and it doesn't honour God.

God bless
In Christ
Luke

I can't speak for your calling, Lukasaurus.
Here is mine:

---------------------------------------------------------

2 Peter 1:10 (KJV1611 Edition):

Wherefore, the rather, brethren,
giue diligence to make your calling and election sure:
for if ye doe these things, ye shall neuer fall.
​

I'm pretty sure that 'calling' here is one's calling TO CHRIST. But I guess it could mean one's calling to ministry. I personally believe that God calls each Christian to serve Him and others in ministry.

I know I've heard "how can I be called by God?" I'm busy taking care of four children". Yes, Mam, sounds like the Lord has called you to spend some 30 years (probably much longer) in a ministry of raising children in the nurture of the Lord.

Short history of God's Callings on Ed:

1952 - Called to salvation Rich & Full --- (It is all about JESUS!)

1958 - Called to teach Bible

1967 - Called to the special witness of harvesting people for Messiah Jesus whom others have planted (Yeshua gives the growth and does the harvesting)

1972 - Called to special (on-line) ministry of EDification to those who are called to the pastoring ministry

1975 - Called to the Deacon Ministry

1984 - Called to special on-line ministry of EDification to those who are called to God's ministry

2002 - Called to the BB = Baptist Board

(I note I never got uncalled -- maybe if the Lord Taries I'll get called home which will uncall me from the other calls??)
​

​

 

[DHK]

I am hoping that is not what he meant, but he is usally pretty straightforward about his beliefs. And if that is the case, I see it as a damnable heresy. Why would you question whether or not I believe in "personal evangelism" ?

Concisely, I follow this example:

"Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ." Acts 20:21

Ultimately Calvinism "seems" to lead to non-evangelistic position, where there is no need to evangelize. The Holy Spirit does all the work from beginning to end. Why did God even bother to put the Great Commission in the Bible. Why that seems like a redundant thing to do if salvation, from beginning to end, is all of God. If God never intended man to have a part in this grand scheme of things why did he give the Great Commission; the command to be witness to the whole world (Acts 1:8)?

Aresman answered my question for you. He gave an adequate presentation of the plan of salvation. The question after the plan, is what then?
What does the Calvinist do after the plan of salvation is given?
If there is no free will, why witness?
It is evident, even from Aresman answer, that a choice must be made, and a man cannot be coerced by the Holy Spirit or by man into making that decision. The free will of man must have a part in the salvation of a man.

 

[Brother Bob]

Who says that I meant to use those exact words? If I did, then I would have italicized them as terms. I meant the general message that such terms embody.

Here, in simpler terms:

1. Everyone is born in sin, is a sinner by nature, willfully sins, does not seek God, and cannot save himself (Rom 3:10-12). No one is perfect; everyone makes mistakes; this is because everyone is a sinner. Get him to realize that he is a sinner.
2. God demands perfection. Everyone is guilty of breaking God's law (Rom 3:19, 23; Ecc 7:20). No one can be saved by keeping the law or any good works (Rom 3:20). Get him to realize that he cannot save himself.
3. There is a penalty for sin--death and eternal separation from God (Rom 5:12; 6:23). Get him to recognize that there is a penalty for sin.
4. Jesus Christ (God in the flesh) died on the Cross as a substitute for sinners, which we all are (Rom 5:8,15,19; Luk 5:32; I Tim 1:15). Get him to realize a Substitute.
5. Is it through faith in the death and resurrection of Christ that one is saved (Rom 3:28; 4:5; Gal 2:16; Joh 3:16; Acts 16:31; Rom 4:5; Eph 2:8-9). Get him to realize that the work of the Substitute is completely sufficient to pay his sin debt and justify him for God so that he can go to heaven.

Of course, any conversation can go in any direction; I couldn't always stick to a precise formula or order of verses.

Eze 18:4Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Notice that it says, the "soul" OF the father. How can it die, if its born dead. It certainly is born under the "original sin", but has to come to know God before the death, for sin is not imputed. The wages of "sin" is death, but if not imputed, then no death.

BBob,

 

[DHK]

DHK,

You wrote,



Please understand I am not questioning your faith.

Why did you consider? Why did you believe? Why are you saved?

RB

I considered, because as a Catholic it was the first time in 20 years that I had ever heard the gospel. I considered because it was the first time that I understood that Christ was more than a historical person; he could be my personal Saviour. I considered not because I didn't know who he was intellectually; the facts were all there. But rather because I didn't know him personally, and that He died for my sins personally. In fact, if I were the only person in the world Jesus loved me enough that He would have come and died just for me, so great is His love. I learned of the personal love of the Great Creator.

I believed because of that love.
I believed because of His work.
I believed because He took the penalty of my sin in my stead.

I am saved because of the work of grace that he has done in my life.
I am saved because I trusted in that work of grace that He did on the cross.

"For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves."
"Being justified by faith, we have peace with God."

 

[AresMan]

Once he has realized that he is a sinner, that the work of the Substitute is completely sufficient to pay his sin debt and justify him for God so that he can to to heaven, then what?
Then he must choose. Correct? Of his own free will he must choose to accept or reject Christ as Saviour. You have done an adequate job of explaining salvation. Now it is up to Him to decide. The Holy Spirit can't "coerce" him into making a decision. Grace isn't irresistable, not even at this point.

What is this "decision" to which you are referring? If one agrees with what I present and believes that what I am saying is true, then would that not constitute the "decision." There are many verses in the Bible that say that one must "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ" to be saved.

Is a "sinner's prayer" (i.e. a work) required for one to be saved? I am not opposed to saying a prayer as long as the purpose is to summarize and confirm what one believes about the Gospel. It should not be an act (i.e. work) required to attain salvation. We are not saved by works; we are saved by grace through faith. One does not need to say an incantation to be saved, and salvation is not a spell that is activated by saying magic words. How many trust in the act of saying a prayer as their salvation rather than the finished, substitutionary work of Christ on the Cross?

 

[AresMan]

I believed because of that love.
I believed because of His work.
I believed because He took the penalty of my sin in my stead.

Why did you do this while someone else didn't? What was different about you?

 

[DHK]

What is this "decision" to which you are referring? If one agrees with what I present and believes that what I am saying is true, then would that not constitute the "decision." There are many verses in the Bible that say that one must "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ" to be saved.

Is a "sinner's prayer" (i.e. a work) required for one to be saved? I am not opposed to saying a prayer as long as the purpose is to summarize and confirm what one believes about the Gospel. It should not be an act (i.e. work) required to attain salvation. We are not saved by works; we are saved by grace through faith. One does not need to say an incantation to be saved, and salvation is not a spell that is activated by saying magic words. How many trust in the act of saying a prayer as their salvation rather than the finished, substitutionary work of Christ on the Cross?

I never said anything about a "sinner's prayer.
I never said anything about an act or work.
And yes, the Bible says much about believing--Believe on the Lord and thou shalt be saved.

There still remains that choice or that decision whether or not to believe.
Thus free will must be involved. The will to believe or not to believe.
It is this "will" that the Calvinist so adamantly speaks out against.
Salvatin is not of works; but one must believe. We can agree that "belief" is not a work. Yet it is a choice.

 

[DHK]

Why did you do this while someone else didn't? What was different about you?

I am not unique. Christianity has spread over every continent and throughout every age. Millions have done the same thing that I have.

 

[AresMan]

I am not unique. Christianity has spread over every continent and throughout every age. Millions have done the same thing that I have.

All things being equal, why do some believe and others not?

 

[AresMan]

There still remains that choice or that decision whether or not to believe.

What exactly is a "choice" or "decision" to believe something. One will always believe something of which he is unequivocably convinced is true. If the Holy Spirit effectually illuminates your heart so that the Gospel is revealed as utter truth, you will believe.

I can say that I believe that the moon is made of green cheese. However, I cannot actually believe that because I am already convinced otherwise. I cannot simply will to believe something that is not revealed as truth in my heart. The "choice" to believe something is tied to what one's heart is convinced is true.

Thus free will must be involved. The will to believe or not to believe.

It depends upon what you mean by "free will." I believe in "free will," but I also believe that it is limited by our nature and makeup. I believe that, and I believe that the Bible teaches that, the cause of saving faith is an effectual work of the Holy Spirit on the part of those believing the Gospel; without which, no one would believe, because all by nature reject God.

It is this "will" that the Calvinist so adamantly speaks out against.

Calvinists do not deny will or volition. They deny the utter libertarian type of will that non-Calvinists believe, and see this necessarily argued by non-Calvinists primarily because they either don't understand Calvinism or that they really, really, really cannot stand what they conclude as logical inferences from effectual calling.

Salvatin is not of works; but one must believe. We can agree that "belief" is not a work. Yet it is a choice.

I can also believe that saving faith--believe in the Gospel--ultimately comes from God effectually on the part of those who exercise it (Joh 6:37-40; Phi 1:29; Act 5:32; 2 Tim 2:25).

 

[DHK]

All things being equal, why do some believe and others not?

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

According to Christ it is because of their own choice whether to believe or not.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Ultimately Calvinism "seems" to lead to non-evangelistic position, where there is no need to evangelize. The Holy Spirit does all the work from beginning to end. Why did God even bother to put the Great Commission in the Bible. Why that seems like a redundant thing to do if salvation, from beginning to end, is all of God. If God never intended man to have a part in this grand scheme of things why did he give the Great Commission; the command to be witness to the whole world (Acts 1:8)?

Aresman answered my question for you. He gave an adequate presentation of the plan of salvation. The question after the plan, is what then?
What does the Calvinist do after the plan of salvation is given?
If there is no free will, why witness?
It is evident, even from Aresman answer, that a choice must be made, and a man cannot be coerced by the Holy Spirit or by man into making that decision. The free will of man must have a part in the salvation of a man.

My suggestion is that if your really interested in understanding the calvinists view regarding your questions you aquire the multitude of literature that has been written in this regard. I have answered these questions so many times it seems tedious to do so again and again.

RB