Decisional Regeneration? What about today’s popular “alter call”

[DaveXR650]

Percho. Maybe I misunderstood your post but is seemed like you were comparing God approaching Abraham to you or me or some pastor giving out the gospel to a general audience. I don't agree that that's a valid comparison.

 

[DaveXR650]

Of course, only the born-again can do this. But it shows that His atoned for elect are found in people like Cornelius who did "saved" works long before he ever heard Peter preach. Why preach if only the born-again can discern the truth in it?

It's funny. I've always thought of the case of Cornelius being a problem passage for Calvinists because he was doing good things, on his own, before he was saved and God approved of it. That and several other passages seem to suggest that even for people who aren't saved, they are way better off doing right with whatever light they have because God may notice that and assist them more in salvation. It could be used as an argument against unconditional election - especially if you take it to the extreme that some Calvinists do and say that God automatically hates anything a person tries to do before he is saved.

 

[SavedByGrace]

No where in John 3 did Christ use the term 'second birth'. He spoke only of born from above synonymous with born of the Spirit:

7 `Thou mayest not wonder that I said to thee, It behoveth you to be born from above;
8 the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit.` Jn 3

The Greek ἄνωθεν, is also used for AGAIN, ANEW, SECOND TIME, as the Greek lexicons tell us. BDAG; Liddell & Scott; Thayer; Abbot-Smith; A T Robertson; Marvin Vincent; John Gill; Jamieson, fausset, Brown; Matthew Henry, etc, etc.

 

[1689Dave]

It's funny. I've always thought of the case of Cornelius being a problem passage for Calvinists because he was doing good things, on his own, before he was saved and God approved of it. That and several other passages seem to suggest that even for people who aren't saved, they are way better off doing right with whatever light they have because God may notice that and assist them more in salvation. It could be used as an argument against unconditional election - especially if you take it to the extreme that some Calvinists do and say that God automatically hates anything a person tries to do before he is saved.

Only the born-from above can do works the way Cornelius did. Why witness to Muslims if God, did not, as He did with the Roman Cornelius, bring some to life, to yet hear the gospel? Catholics too. How many of them re-formed Catholicism away from the Antichrist Papacy in the day?

 

[SavedByGrace]

Only the born-from above

see # 123, and the greater majority of English Versions, John 3:3 Parallel: Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

 

[percho]

Percho. Maybe I misunderstood your post but is seemed like you were comparing God approaching Abraham to you or me or some pastor giving out the gospel to a general audience. I don't agree that that's a valid comparison.

I am saying IMHO The calling of Abraham was no different than these; Acts 9:15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: - and-
Acts 15:14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.

And that is relative to the kingdom of God.

There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out. Luke 13:28

Question? Is Jesus preaching, the gospel of the kingdom of God, an enhancement of the kingdom spoken of in Daniel 2:34,35 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces. Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth. ---- Who are going to be the rulers? Plural?

Salvation- saved from what, unto, for what?

 

[Silverhair]

What if you did not ask the Lord to save you? The truth is, you were saved before it came to mind to do that. If you didn't already believe (possess salvation according to Christ) you would not have done that. But your faith was shifted away from Christ back into your actions as being what saved you. Get your theology right and it will give God the glory in salvation instead of yourself.

>>The truth is, you were saved before it came to mind to do that. If you didn't already believe (possess salvation according to Christ) you would not have done that.<<

So by your view the person is saved before they believe or even trust in Christ Jesus let alone have repented. The is some kind of theology you have there.

 

[percho]

When/what did Paul hear, that with his carnal mind, believed, which brought about his being saved?

Be careful.

From whom did Paul say he received the gospel?

When does one think, that might have taken place?

 

[1689Dave]

I am saying IMHO The calling of Abraham was no different than these; Acts 9:15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: - and-
Acts 15:14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.

And that is relative to the kingdom of God.

There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out. Luke 13:28

Question? Is Jesus preaching, the gospel of the kingdom of God, an enhancement of the kingdom spoken of in Daniel 2:34,35 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces. Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth. ---- Who are going to be the rulers? Plural?

Salvation- saved from what, unto, for what?

The kingdom came when Daniel said it would. But only the born again can see it, even today. Since they can't see it, they look for the Pharisee's premillennial kingdom in the future. But it is not the kingdom.

 

[kyredneck]

The Greek ἄνωθεν, is also used for AGAIN, ANEW, SECOND TIME, as the Greek lexicons tell us. BDAG; Liddell & Scott; Thayer; Abbot-Smith; A T Robertson; Marvin Vincent; John Gill; Jamieson, fausset, Brown; Matthew Henry, etc, etc.

Nicodemus's non-enlightenment should not affect the correct rendering of Christ's intent with the word 'anothen' here. Anothen ( from above, from a higher place, of things which come from heaven or God, from the first, from the beginning, from the very first, anew, over again) can mean 'anew' or 'over again', but that's not what Christ meant, thus His further explanation in the next verse:

5 Jesus answered, `Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born of water, and the Spirit, he is not able to enter into the reign of God;
6 that which hath been born of the flesh is flesh, and that which hath been born of the Spirit is spirit. Jn 1 YLT

Christ wasn't speaking of an earthly physical birth which Nicodemus wrongly perceived, He was speaking of a spiritual birth FROM ABOVE.

"Born from above" syncs with a large amount of other scripture, old and new, and is consistent with the apostle John's (James also) intended use of the word anothen:

3 Jesus answered and said to him, 'Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born from above, he is not able to see the reign of God;' (YLT)
7 'Thou mayest not wonder that I said to thee, It behoveth you to be born from above; (YLT)
31 He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly , and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all. Jn 3

11 Jesus answered , Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.
23 Then the soldiers, when they had crucified Jesus, took his garments, and made four parts, to every soldier a part; and also his coat: now the coat was without seam, woven from the top throughout . Jn 19

As is the case with James:

17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. Ja 1

15 This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.
17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure , then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy. Ja 3

YLT conveys a 'celestial motif' in the dialogue (yea, the entire chapter) between Christ and Nicodemus that the rendering 'born again' misses:

2 this one came unto him by night, and said to him, `Rabbi, we have known that from God thou hast come -- a teacher, for no one these signs is able to do that thou dost, if God may not be with him.`
3 Jesus answered and said to him, `Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born from above, he is not able to see the reign of God;`
7 `Thou mayest not wonder that I said to thee, It behoveth you to be born from above;
21 but he who is doing the truth doth come to the light, that his works may be manifested, that in God they are having been wrought.`
27 John answered and said, `A man is not able to receive anything, if it may not have been given him from the heaven
31 he who from above is coming is above all; he who is from the earth, from the earth he is, and from the earth he speaketh; he who from the heaven is coming is above all. Jn 3 YLT

Born again, or born anew gives all you free willer enemies of sovereign grace 'wiggle room' to lay claim or take credit for something you had zilch to do with. You were 100% totally passive in the birth from above:

13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. Jn 1

 

[SavedByGrace]

Nicodemus's non-enlightenment should not affect the correct rendering of Christ's intent with the word 'anothen' here. Anothen ( from above, from a higher place, of things which come from heaven or God, from the first, from the beginning, from the very first, anew, over again) can mean 'anew' or 'over again', but that's not what Christ meant, thus His further explanation in the next verse:

5 Jesus answered, `Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born of water, and the Spirit, he is not able to enter into the reign of God;
6 that which hath been born of the flesh is flesh, and that which hath been born of the Spirit is spirit. Jn 1 YLT

Christ wasn't speaking of an earthly physical birth which Nicodemus wrongly perceived, He was speaking of a spiritual birth FROM ABOVE.

"Born from above" syncs with a large amount of other scripture, old and new, and is consistent with the apostle John's (James also) intended use of the word anothen:

3 Jesus answered and said to him, 'Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born from above, he is not able to see the reign of God;' (YLT)
7 'Thou mayest not wonder that I said to thee, It behoveth you to be born from above; (YLT)
31 He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly , and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all. Jn 3

11 Jesus answered , Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.
23 Then the soldiers, when they had crucified Jesus, took his garments, and made four parts, to every soldier a part; and also his coat: now the coat was without seam, woven from the top throughout . Jn 19

As is the case with James:

17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. Ja 1

15 This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.
17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure , then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy. Ja 3

YLT conveys a 'celestial motif' in the dialogue (yea, the entire chapter) between Christ and Nicodemus that the rendering 'born again' misses:

2 this one came unto him by night, and said to him, `Rabbi, we have known that from God thou hast come -- a teacher, for no one these signs is able to do that thou dost, if God may not be with him.`
3 Jesus answered and said to him, `Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born from above, he is not able to see the reign of God;`
7 `Thou mayest not wonder that I said to thee, It behoveth you to be born from above;
21 but he who is doing the truth doth come to the light, that his works may be manifested, that in God they are having been wrought.`
27 John answered and said, `A man is not able to receive anything, if it may not have been given him from the heaven
31 he who from above is coming is above all; he who is from the earth, from the earth he is, and from the earth he speaketh; he who from the heaven is coming is above all. Jn 3 YLT

Born again, or born anew gives all you free willer enemies of sovereign grace 'wiggle room' to lay claim or take credit for something you had zilch to do with. You were 100% totally passive in the birth from above:

13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. Jn 1

According to you all those Greek scholars I referred to are wrong?

I have heard enough

 

[percho]

The kingdom came when Daniel said it would. But only the born again can see it, even today. Since they can't see it, they look for the Pharisee's premillennial kingdom in the future. But it is not the kingdom.

I will ask again.
Is the kingdom of God Jesus preached, the gospel, an enhancement of the kingdom spoken of in Daniel 2:34,35

What are your thoughts relative to this inspired statement of Paul?
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 1 Cor 15:50
Correct me if I am wrong. Isn't it, an heir, that inherits? That becomes, an inheritor. He is born or appointed, heir not inheritor. Yes or no.

In many parts, and many ways, God of old having spoken to the fathers in the prophets, in these last days did speak to us in a Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He did make the ages; who being the brightness of the glory, and the impress of His subsistence, bearing up also the all things by the saying of his might -- through himself having made a cleansing of our sins, sat down at the right hand of the greatness in the highest, having become so much better than the messengers, as he did inherit (became inheritor) a more excellent name than they. Hebrews 1:1-4 YLT

Did Jesus born of Mary, the heir of God, inherit the kingdom of God? When? As flesh and blood, corruptible or flesh and bones, incorruptible?

Acts 13:34,35 YLT 'And that He did raise him up out of the dead, no more to return to corruption, he hath said thus -- I will give to you the faithful kindnesses of David; wherefore also in another place he saith, Thou shalt not give Thy kind One to see corruption,

 

[tyndale1946]

Just out of curiosity, what do you guys think of this popular song being sung in Calvinistic churches:
Let not conscience make you linger
Nor of fitness fondly dream
All the fitness he requireth
Is to feel your need of Him

I will rise and go to Jesus
He will embrace me in his arms
In the arms of my dear Savior
Oh there are ten thousand charms

Is the person doing a work if they rise and go to Jesus?

OK... Enough already!... This a gospel call to be up and about the fathers business... I believe in Holy Spirit regeneration not gospel... Question?... The Ethiopian eunuch when he went to WORSHIP in Jerusalem in the temple, who did he go to worship?... A monkey?... He was already saved but he needed more understanding how he was and who saved him... Then he was baptized... Nicodemus?... Jesus didn't tell Nicodemus how to be saved or he needed to be saved he berated Nicodemus because being a teacher in Israel, he didn't understand it... Its ALL OF GOD!!!... Brethren!... I haven't changed my tune being here in over 20 years... And like I have been saying since I've been here... You had no control over your natural birth, so what make you think you have control on your spiritual one?... Brother Glen

John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Come, ye sinners, poor and needy,
Weak and wounded, sick and sore
Jesus ready stands to save you,
Full of pity, love and pow'r.

I will arise and go to Jesus,
He will embrace me in His arms
In the arms of my dear Savior,
Oh, there are ten thousand charms.

Btw... DaveXR650, seems we got a lot of Dave's on here... You forgot the first verse and I know the song very well, was a song leader for over 35 years... Was Paul a sinner after he was saved?... Read Romans 7!... Who is the song directed to and who sings it?... You and I.... There was an old theologian who signed is letters S.S. Sinner Saved... We as sinners, go to Jesus everyday... We are not just saved eternally, we are saved daily too... And as always Kentucky you beat me to the punch... And if you have not seen the two post by Ken in the forum other discussions by Philpot, in case you missed it here is the link... Brother Glen

Sin has thoroughly diseased us

 

[Salty]

Six hour warning
This thread will be closed no sooner than 130 am EST (Sat) / 1030 pm PST (Fri)

 

[DaveXR650]

Tyndale 1946. I appreciate your post because you get to the point and don't beat around the bush! Of course you won't think that song is an invitation song if you don't believe in invitations. As for the Ethiopian eunuch, he was probably of the Jewish faith at the time and needed to be told that Jesus was the Messiah but you don't know that he was already saved. Where did you come up with that? Jesus certainly did tell Nicodemus how to be saved. Keep reading and you'll come to a little known verse John 3:16.

And I didn't "forget" the first verse, I just didn't know how long to make the post. I actually debated whether to go with the popular words used nowadays or the original which was actually more Calvinistic. That song, according the hymn history website was indeed designed as an invitation song. The site is probably wrong though so I'm glad we have you.

"We are not just saved eternally, we are saved daily too." I'm assuming you meant daily repentance which I agree with. You cannot repeatedly get saved. Justification is done once.

Honestly, this idea that some of you have, where somehow you are triggered at any mention of a person actually doing something in the process of his salvation is something I have never heard of before. It is completely unheard of in Puritan literature. I'm not talking about works or merit or I would agree with you, but faith and repentance? We have a problem.

 

[AustinC]

Tyndale 1946. I appreciate your post because you get to the point and don't beat around the bush! Of course you won't think that song is an invitation song if you don't believe in invitations. As for the Ethiopian eunuch, he was probably of the Jewish faith at the time and needed to be told that Jesus was the Messiah but you don't know that he was already saved. Where did you come up with that? Jesus certainly did tell Nicodemus how to be saved. Keep reading and you'll come to a little known verse John 3:16.

And I didn't "forget" the first verse, I just didn't know how long to make the post. I actually debated whether to go with the popular words used nowadays or the original which was actually more Calvinistic. That song, according the hymn history website was indeed designed as an invitation song. The site is probably wrong though so I'm glad we have you.

"We are not just saved eternally, we are saved daily too." I'm assuming you meant daily repentance which I agree with. You cannot repeatedly get saved. Justification is done once.

Honestly, this idea that some of you have, where somehow you are triggered at any mention of a person actually doing something in the process of his salvation is something I have never heard of before. It is completely unheard of in Puritan literature. I'm not talking about works or merit or I would agree with you, but faith and repentance? We have a problem.

xr, no one believes there is no response. The issue entirely revolves around who is the cause and what is the effect.
Some here teach that faith is the cause and the effect is God's blessing.
Others (I) teach that God the Holy Spirit is the cause and the effect is faith and repentance.

 

[DaveXR650]

Thanks Austin for the clarification. I hope you are right. The problem with the preceding post is that it does short circuit any kind of discussion with someone who wants to be saved because the premise is that if you want to be saved then you are born again already and no one can say anything to you without damaging the fact that salvation is all of God. I wish someone would explain to me why the Calvinist divines of old never were this extreme in this and all the time were flat out telling people what they had to do in order to get saved.

 

[Salty]

Six hour warning
This thread will be closed no sooner than 130 am EST (Sat) / 1030 pm PST (Fri)

This thread is closed