Decisions v Discipleship

[HAMel]

Matt: 28:16
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.

The word teach means, “to make a disciple. To teach, to instruct.”

Matt 28:17
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world.

The word teaching means, “to hold discourse with others in order to instruct them, deliver didactic discourses.”

A Disciple is one who follows Jesus.

Luke 14:26
If any man come to me and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

The word hate as implied here means, “to love less”.

Luke 14:27
And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.

When Jesus called his Apostles He told them all, follow me and they immediately left all and followed Him.

Almost all of us have heard it said that someone made a decision for Christ. Where does this word/idea of one making a decision come from? Jesus never asked anyone to make a decision.
After a decision then what?

Are churches today more interested in decisions or that of making disciples out of existing believers? Are churches today teaching believers through earnest*and*intelligent discourse to be followers of Jesus?

As I’ve stated on this forum before it’s been my experience over the past 40 years that every service I've ever attended consisted of not much more that, “you gotta get saved; you gotta get saved; you gotta get saved.” If no one is walking the isle then it’s time for the guilt trip sermons. Being Christian should not be a burden even if we do bear our cross.

Teaching believers through earnest and intelligent discourse to be followers of Jesus is a daunting task for sure but the Holy Spirit can make it happen.

What say ye all?

 

[annsni]

I once asked a pastor who was once on BB just that. His church goes out "soul winning" every weekend and they brag about the "75" or "68" or whatever number of souls they won that weekend. I asked how many of those "decisions" do they continue to meet with to disciple and how many end up coming to their church? How do they do follow-up? I was banned from their site. Apparently they don't care about follow-up - they just want someone to say some words and they bless them and leave. I'd really like to know how many of those have been real hearts saved.

We MUST have a plan in place to work with new believers. I really think it's as important as preaching the Gospel.

 

[Jkdbuck76]

We MUST have a plan in place to work with new believers. I really think it's as important as preaching the Gospel.

Amen! One of the greatest things Adrian Rogers said was "I don't care how many decisions you made, but how many disciples have you made?"--or something to that effect.

 

[gb93433]

I once asked a pastor who was once on BB just that. His church goes out "soul winning" every weekend and they brag about the "75" or "68" or whatever number of souls they won that weekend. I asked how many of those "decisions" do they continue to meet with to disciple and how many end up coming to their church? How do they do follow-up? I was banned from their site. Apparently they don't care about follow-up - they just want someone to say some words and they bless them and leave. I'd really like to know how many of those have been real hearts saved.

The real question should be "How many are disciples of Jesus who are making disciples?" Nobody in scripture ever gave the command to just do evangelism but to make disciples. Not one parent would feel that they had done their job if all they did was to make babies. The parents who are blessed are those who disciple their children who disciple others.

John said something very simple that seems to get passed up. "I have no greater joy than this, to hear of my children walking in the truth."

We MUST have a plan in place to work with new believers. I really think it's as important as preaching the Gospel.

Recently I read a book on discipleship and the author stated that when he first became interested in making disciples that he also found that seminaries are not interested in making disciples.

The majority of churches say they want growth but are not willing to pay the price of hard work that is required.

Some good books on discipleship are:

Real-Life Discipleship: Building Churches That Make Disciples by Jim Putnam

Church is a Team Sport: A Championship Strategy for Doing Ministry Together by Jim Putnam

Real-Life Discipleship Training Manual: Equipping Disciples Who Make Disciples by Avery T Willis Jr, Jim Putman, Bill Krause and Brandon Guindon

Following the Master by Michael J. Wilkins

Sitting at the Feet of Rabbi Jesus: How the Jewishness of Jesus Can Transform Your Faith by Ann Spangler and Lois Tverberg

Making disciples means that we care enough to personally encourage the person to do what is right and follow Jesus.

I think we would be amazed at the thoughts among people sitting in our churches if we really knew them. Just a few years ago I met with a young man who had been recruiting the youth to Wicca and became an atheist. Now he is discipling young people in that same church. I met with that man for 1-1/2 years giving him 2 to 4 hours each week. He was hungry. I hear people say today that young people do not want to learn. That is nonsense. What I find is that it is their parents who so often want to have fun and be spoon fed.

 

[HeDied4U]

I once asked a pastor who was once on BB just that. His church goes out "soul winning" every weekend and they brag about the "75" or "68" or whatever number of souls they won that weekend. I asked how many of those "decisions" do they continue to meet with to disciple and how many end up coming to their church? How do they do follow-up? I was banned from their site. Apparently they don't care about follow-up - they just want someone to say some words and they bless them and leave. I'd really like to know how many of those have been real hearts saved.

We MUST have a plan in place to work with new believers. I really think it's as important as preaching the Gospel.

Amen.

The church my wife and I currently attend has a two-pronged approach. A new believers class that teaches what the church believes and what it expects from new members, and the "appointment" (for lack of a better word) of a mature (not necessarily in age, but mature in the faith) believer to disciple the new believer. If a married couple comes to faith together, then a mature married couple is assigned.

 

[annsni]

The "theme" of our church campus this year is "disciples making disciples". I like that!

 

[gb93433]

Take a look at http://reallifeministries.com/Church_Development_Ministry#WHAT WE OFFER

The pastor who leads that ministry wrote in one of his books that some churches have division in their leadership when they come to the conference he leads.

 

[nodak]

Ah, the cloning--er--discipleship issue.

Bear with me a minute. I come from the old school type rural Baptists--folks that figured you went out soul winning, but also figured if God truly saved someone they would GET IN THE WORD.

When folks do that, under the tutelage of the Holy Spirit, they will seek teachers. And they might not agree with everything the teacher teaches.

And that was ok.

Today what I see is some following MacArthur and some Warren and some--well you get the idea.

And they are dead set to make everyone else clones of those guys.

Woe to the newly saved person who says "I just don't think xyz he teaches squares with the Bible."

It IS important to offer teaching.

But it is ALSO important not to try and do the Holy Spirit's job for Him.

Soul freedom. Don't surrender it to any human!

 

[HAMel]

Nodak, did I understand your position correctly?

Bear with me a minute. I come from the old school type rural Baptists--folks that figured you went out soul winning, but also figured if God truly saved someone they would GET IN THE WORD.

When folks do that, under the tutelage of the Holy Spirit, they will seek teachers. And they might not agree with everything the teacher teaches.

What do you do then with Matt 28:16 & 17?

If people get saved and they would GET IN THE WORD..., like if a kid gets a math book he will GET INTO ALGEBRA?

 

[gb93433]

Ah, the cloning--er--discipleship issue.

Bear with me a minute. I come from the old school type rural Baptists--folks that figured you went out soul winning, but also figured if God truly saved someone they would GET IN THE WORD.

When folks do that, under the tutelage of the Holy Spirit, they will seek teachers. And they might not agree with everything the teacher teaches.

And that was ok.

It was never okay to leave discipleship to chance and being enticed by Satan.

Today what I see is some following MacArthur and some Warren and some--well you get the idea.

And they are dead set to make everyone else clones of those guys.

Woe to the newly saved person who says "I just don't think xyz he teaches squares with the Bible."

It IS important to offer teaching.

But it is ALSO important not to try and do the Holy Spirit's job for Him.

Soul freedom. Don't surrender it to any human!

When your children were born did you leave their raising to the Holy Spirit too?

I listened to a message on making disciples that was given about the time MacArthur and Warren were born which mentioned about how so few pastors could name anyone who was living for Jesus Christ because of their life.

The Holy Spirit's job is not to make disciples as those who mislead others would suggest.

Acts 20:28, "Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.'

 

[gb93433]

If people get saved and they would GET IN THE WORD..., like if a kid gets a math book he will GET INTO ALGEBRA?

Well of course every college student studies hard to learn all he can. Many high school students have parents who think that school should be fun and not so much work.

Who needs to train children? After all, the Hebrew word for child means mischevious one.

 

[JesusFan]

Matt: 28:16
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.

The word teach means, “to make a disciple. To teach, to instruct.”

Matt 28:17
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world.

The word teaching means, “to hold discourse with others in order to instruct them, deliver didactic discourses.”

A Disciple is one who follows Jesus.

Luke 14:26
If any man come to me and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

The word hate as implied here means, “to love less”.

Luke 14:27
And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.

When Jesus called his Apostles He told them all, follow me and they immediately left all and followed Him.

Almost all of us have heard it said that someone made a decision for Christ. Where does this word/idea of one making a decision come from? Jesus never asked anyone to make a decision.
After a decision then what?

Are churches today more interested in decisions or that of making disciples out of existing believers? Are churches today teaching believers through earnest*and*intelligent discourse to be followers of Jesus?

As I’ve stated on this forum before it’s been my experience over the past 40 years that every service I've ever attended consisted of not much more that, “you gotta get saved; you gotta get saved; you gotta get saved.” If no one is walking the isle then it’s time for the guilt trip sermons. Being Christian should not be a burden even if we do bear our cross.

Teaching believers through earnest and intelligent discourse to be followers of Jesus is a daunting task for sure but the Holy Spirit can make it happen.

What say ye all?

Its right in our church statement, that we are to make both More and better disciples of/for Jesus!

Important thing to remember on this is that we have been charged to make disciples in image of Jesus, NOT to mold them into our image!

just saying that sometimes have observed in the zeal to disciple, we end up with converts exactly like us, warts and all!

 

[HAMel]

...NOT to mold them into our image!

WHAMMO!!! Hits the nail right on the head!!!

I came to Jesus in 1972 while living in Washington, NC. Within 30 days my company transferred me to Danville, VA. The church we settled in was an IBC and being young converts we knew nothing except what was preached from the pulpit. We just thought "That Was The Way Things Should Be".

With several years behind us now and finding ourselves more mature in the Lord, I have to confess that our three years in that Church caused much more harm than good. Hard as we tried we just could not force ourselves to "conform" to their way. Not that we rebelled against them but we just could not seem to shape ourselves into the way they expected us to be. No matter what we did it just wasn't enough. Talk about confusion.

...it took a long time to come around.

 

[JesusFan]

...NOT to mold them into our image!

WHAMMO!!! Hits the nail right on the head!!!

I came to Jesus in 1972 while living in Washington, NC. Within 30 days my company transferred me to Danville, VA. The church we settled in was an IBC and being young converts we knew nothing except what was preached from the pulpit. We just thought "That Was The Way Things Should Be".

With several years behind us now and finding ourselves more mature in the Lord, I have to confess that our three years in that Church caused much more harm than good. Hard as we tried we just could not force ourselves to "conform" to their way. Not that we rebelled against them but we just could not seem to shape ourselves into the way they expected us to be. No matter what we did it just wasn't enough. Talk about confusion.

...it took a long time to come around.

We want to make sure they grow up to be "like jesus/NOT like me!"

regrettably, 2 extremes in the church today, either they get saved, no training further, or else get made clones of the pastor himself! jusr "parrot" their church doctrines, regardless if wrong/right, as just taught to blindly to accept it as being "in the Bible!"

 

[Berean]

My church has been focusing on conversions vs decisions for the past two or three years. The endeaver is not to make this just another program but for it to become a life style Our pastor preached (or taught) a series of Sunday night messages this past fall on one on one discipling based on some of the Mathias Medis literature, "The Trellis And The Vine" in particular. In addition we have had Herb Hodges in to address our men two or three times. We now have several men who are meeting with new believers on a regular basis and we are beginning to see results. I personally have a 29 year old grandson who had been a believer for some time that was mentored by a fellow church member. They meet for two or three months from 7:00 AM until 8:00 AM every Tuesday. When it started he was reluctant to pray aloud privately much less in public. Today he is the leader in the home teaches a SS class (or small group)and is a leader in his Church, All Praise and Glory to Jesus Christ.

Luke 10:2

 

[JesusFan]

My church has been focusing on conversions vs decisions for the past two or three years. The endeaver is not to make this just another program but for it to become a life style Our pastor preached (or taught) a series of Sunday night messages this past fall on one on one discipling based on some of the Mathias Medis literature, "The Trellis And The Vine" in particular. In addition we have had Herb Hodges in to address our men two or three times. We now have several men who are meeting with new believers on a regular basis and we are beginning to see results. I personally have a 29 year old grandson who had been a believer for some time that was mentored by a fellow church member. They meet for two or three months from 7:00 AM until 8:00 AM every Tuesday. When it started he was reluctant to pray aloud privately much less in public. Today he is the leader in the home teaches a SS class (or small group)and is a leader in his Church, All Praise and Glory to Jesus Christ.

Luke 10:2

Great!

Think that we have to realise that its NOT the pastor/elders to makedisciples only...

its mentoring, and having accountibility outside the church building!

 

[glfredrick]

I once asked a pastor who was once on BB just that. His church goes out "soul winning" every weekend and they brag about the "75" or "68" or whatever number of souls they won that weekend. I asked how many of those "decisions" do they continue to meet with to disciple and how many end up coming to their church? How do they do follow-up? I was banned from their site. Apparently they don't care about follow-up - they just want someone to say some words and they bless them and leave. I'd really like to know how many of those have been real hearts saved.

We MUST have a plan in place to work with new believers. I really think it's as important as preaching the Gospel.

I have asked the same questions. I have been rejected in the same way. Some have taught for so long with such persuasive force (Ray Comfort comes to mind) about this man-centered issue that the true nature of the Scriptural mandates have been forgotten in large part.

WE are never called to make "converts." WE are called to take those whom God redeems and disciple them.

Jesus said that He would "build His church." That should be our mandate. Everything else He said was in line with the shepherding of a flock, which is in fact His bride, and not with some singular or personal aspect of the Christian walk.

 

[JesusFan]

I have asked the same questions. I have been rejected in the same way. Some have taught for so long with such persuasive force (Ray Comfort comes to mind) about this man-centered issue that the true nature of the Scriptural mandates have been forgotten in large part.

WE are never called to make "converts." WE are called to take those whom God redeems and disciple them.

Jesus said that He would "build His church." That should be our mandate. Everything else He said was in line with the shepherding of a flock, which is in fact His bride, and not with some singular or personal aspect of the Christian walk.

Think we are called to be "leaky buckets", as the purpose of our spiritual growing/maturing/knowledge is suppossed to be used by God to bring others with us to growing in jesus!

We know more, mature more, in order to pass it on!

think we who are the church gets all types of knowledge/gifts etc, but tend to make it work in the building on Sun, not out into the "real world" during the week!

 

[gb93433]

we are never called to make "converts." we are called to take those whom god redeems and disciple them.

Jesus said that he would "build his church." that should be our mandate. Everything else he said was in line with the shepherding of a flock, which is in fact his bride, and not with some singular or personal aspect of the christian walk.

amen!!!!!!!

 

[nodak]

When I was saved at 17, alone after a televised Billy Graham crusade, I had a real hunger and thirst for the Word.

And I studied it--alone--about a year and half before deciding on a church.

Which is why, given that I had two choices, Baptist or Methodist, I chose the Baptist church.

It was more inline with what I could see in the Scripture.

But then I come from a time when much of what passes for discipleship today was what we would have considered "bossy Baptists" back then.

We had a full menu at church--SS, evangelistic morning preaching services, training union, deeper teaching evening services, prayer meetings that really were for prayer, ladies Bible studies, men's brotherhood, and school early release stuff for kiddoes like Sunbeams, etc.

You went. You listened. You studied the Bible.

And you decided for yourself what the Bible taught.

But at least in my denominational home we have gone from Jesus being the head of the church to the pastor being the ceo. We have gone from no creed but the Bible to using the BFM2000 much as a creed in some locations. And we have gone from Jesus being the final arbiter of our faith to timeless truths delineated by humans.

Gotta say, sometimes I am in favor of taking the word Baptist out of the name, because in doing those things we gave up being what I consider Baptist anyway.

Don't mean to step on toes--just one old lady's opinion you can take or leave.

Cause that is the Baptist way.