Decretive/Permissive Will Or Both?

[tyndale1946]

In Matthew 26 we have the betrayal of Jesus by Judas... God the Father allowed his Son to be delivered up to be crucified... His hour had come!... But according to scripture were not both Gods Decretive and Permissive Will in action?... Notice verse 55... I could pray to my Father and at that very moment and he could give me twelve legions of Angels... But verse 56 says the Gods Decretive Will was in action... But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, but that thus it must be?... So to my understanding and I am seeking truth and I welcome correction... Did not Gods Decretive Will supersede his Permissive Will?... Your comments are always appreciated... Brother Glen

Matthew 26:46 Rise, let us be going: behold, he is at hand that doth betray me.

26:47 And while he yet spake, lo, Judas, one of the twelve, came, and with him a great multitude with swords and staves, from the chief priests and elders of the people.

26:48 Now he that betrayed him gave them a sign, saying, Whomsoever I shall kiss, that same is he: hold him fast.

26:49 And forthwith he came to Jesus, and said, Hail, master; and kissed him.

26:50 And Jesus said unto him, Friend, wherefore art thou come? Then came they, and laid hands on Jesus and took him.

26:51 And, behold, one of them which were with Jesus stretched out his hand, and drew his sword, and struck a servant of the high priest's, and smote off his ear.

26:52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

26:53 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?

26:54 But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?

 

[Van]

Not sure I understand the question, but I will take a shot.

Christ went to the cross willingly. He was obedient. He had prayed for this "cup" to be taken away. But willingly He fulfilled God's redemption plan.

God's plans are not always fulfilled by compulsion. Sometimes His plan including the choice of the participants. God's plan was for Jesus to go to the cross as the lamb of God. But Jesus was not compelled, He chose to be obedient to the Father. God sets before us the choice of life or death, and begs us to be reconciled to God. But we are not compelled, we are allowed to trust in Christ fully or not. God decides whether our faith is whole-hearted, that we are fully committed to Christ, and not a lip service professor.

Now I know there is a whole other school of thought, so study the verses for yourself. I think scripture is clear. Paul was committed to winning souls, which teaches choice over compulsion.

 

[SovereignGrace]

God's will was fulfilled by His sovereign plan and man willingly doing that which they freely do...rebel against Him.

 

[JonC]

Both. Men act of their own wills. Judas betrayed Jesus of his own will. Jesus willing lay down His own life for His sheep. We willingly repented and believed. But all of this was not outside of God's decretive will. Judas was decreed to betray Jesus, and for a specific price (the officials were decreed to offer that amount). Jesus was eternally the Lamb which was slain. The answer is both.

 

[Darrell C]

In Matthew 26 we have the betrayal of Jesus by Judas... God the Father allowed his Son to be delivered up to be crucified... His hour had come!... But according to scripture were not both Gods Decretive and Permissive Will in action?... Notice verse 55... I could pray to my Father and at that very moment and he could give me twelve legions of Angels... But verse 56 says the Gods Decretive Will was in action... But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, but that thus it must be?... So to my understanding and I am seeking truth and I welcome correction... Did not Gods Decretive Will supersede his Permissive Will?... Your comments are always appreciated... Brother Glen

Matthew 26:46 Rise, let us be going: behold, he is at hand that doth betray me.

26:47 And while he yet spake, lo, Judas, one of the twelve, came, and with him a great multitude with swords and staves, from the chief priests and elders of the people.

26:48 Now he that betrayed him gave them a sign, saying, Whomsoever I shall kiss, that same is he: hold him fast.

26:49 And forthwith he came to Jesus, and said, Hail, master; and kissed him.

26:50 And Jesus said unto him, Friend, wherefore art thou come? Then came they, and laid hands on Jesus and took him.

26:51 And, behold, one of them which were with Jesus stretched out his hand, and drew his sword, and struck a servant of the high priest's, and smote off his ear.

26:52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

26:53 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?

26:54 But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?

I would say His decretive will is in view (in regards to going to the Cross), because Christ going to the Cross was the very reason He came. In regards to Judas, he was not forced to betray Jesus, this arose because that was Judas' heart. God's timing in the Incarnation might be explained in God awaiting the conditions that needed to be in place. Those twelve men responded to Christ in a way that the result of being taken was fulfilled, rather than God forced Judas to do something outside of what he might have done if not forced. There was simply no possibility that Judas would not betray Christ.

In regards to the Lord stating He could call Angels to rescue Him, we might compare this to the Lord saying He could create children out of stones (Matthew 3:9). Doesn't mean Christ had a desire to do that, just that He/God could do these things if they chose, but, He chose rather tho go to the Cross.

Of His own will He decided to take on the flesh of man and go to the Cross.

In regards to Judas, we know it was not "God's permissive will" that allowed Judas to betray Him, which would suggest that God "allows" men to go into perdition. I look at it like this: I think we can safely assume that Christ ministered to Judas just as much as any man He ministered to during His ministry.

God could have directed events which would have had a different outcome, as we see in the case of Jonah, but, I don't think we would be correct to view Judas' betrayal as "permitted by God," as it is a consequence of sin. Culpability should be lain where it belongs, and that is squarely on the sinner that disobeys the will of God, which is made evident to all men. Only they are to blame.


God bless.

 

[Van]

You can slice the baloney too thin. Judas certainly was well chosen to fulfill the prophecy of the betrayer, he had willingly become greedy and small. But once Satan entered him, he was compelled to betray.

So we are all over the map. I think Judas was compelled and Jesus willingly died for all mankind.

 

[The Biblicist]

All things are by decree (Isa. 46:9-11) but not all things individually considered decreed may be God's "good pleasure" but many things that God abhores are by will of "permission." Sin with all of its consequences for example are things that God does not take individual "pleasure" in but without doubt he decrees to "permit" within the boundaries for an ultimate end ("his glory") that he does take great pleasure in.

For example, God decreed and it was his good pleasure to create Adam with the ability of free will conjoined with full responsibility for his choices. Sin is decreed permissively as the by product of responsible choice rather than something God takes pleasure in decreeing.

God created all things "good" and God could look upon all his creation upon the seventh day and pronounce everything "good" which demands that sin had not yet made its entrance into God's creation because sin is never viewed by God as "good." Therefore, sin is the consequence of abusing what is "good" by design. God decreed sin as the responsibility of Adam's abuse of free will.

 

[percho]

IMHO No one wants to let God be God. All want to let man be his own God, to save himself. I will attempt to give proof.

for to vanity was the creation made subject -- not of its will, but because of Him who did subject it -- in hope, Romans 8:20 YLT.

Do all agree that the hope spoken of there is, redemption, that is in the Christ who gave his life, a ransom and therefore/wherefore raised from the dead with new life highly exalted? Phil 2:9, Rom 1:4, Heb 1:1-5 Was that redemption determined before the foundation of the world? 1 Peter 1:18-20

Adam did not subject himself. God by creating him of the flesh, subjected him to vanity, in hope. The redemption of the body? To be born again / from above.

That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. John 3:6,7

If man is to be saved, God will have to do so, for man is not capable of doing so. Every thing relative to being saved had better be of God or it ain't so/ truth.

 

[Van]

LOL, "all things are by decree?" No verse or passage says or suggests that fiction. God does declare the end from the beginning. Revelation tells us broadly what will happen at the end of the age. But scripture does not declare every detail of every circumstance. Of course what God has predestined through prophecy will happen, but He did not prophesy everything that occurs. Plenty of room for happenstance and autonomous decisions by sinners. God's purpose is for fallen sinners to autonomously repent and turn to God, because in that way we bring Him glory.

 

[Darrell C]

Revelation tells us broadly what will happen at the end of the age. But scripture does not declare every detail of every circumstance.

What details do you think are missing?


God bless.

 

[Van]

I did not see your name or address listed anywhere!

God does declare the end from the beginning. Revelation tells us broadly what will happen at the end of the age. But scripture does not declare every detail of every circumstance. Of course what God has predestined through prophecy will happen, but He did not prophesy everything that occurs. Plenty of room for happenstance and autonomous decisions by sinners. God's purpose is for fallen sinners to autonomously repent and turn to God, because in that way we bring Him glory.

 

[percho]

All things are by decree (Isa. 46:9-11) but not all things individually considered decreed may be God's "good pleasure" but many things that God abhores are by will of "permission." Sin with all of its consequences for example are things that God does not take individual "pleasure" in but without doubt he decrees to "permit" within the boundaries for an ultimate end ("his glory") that he does take great pleasure in.

For example, God decreed and it was his good pleasure to create Adam with the ability of free will conjoined with full responsibility for his choices. Sin is decreed permissively as the by product of responsible choice rather than something God takes pleasure in decreeing.

God created all things "good" and God could look upon all his creation upon the seventh day and pronounce everything "good" which demands that sin had not yet made its entrance into God's creation because sin is never viewed by God as "good." Therefore, sin is the consequence of abusing what is "good" by design. God decreed sin as the responsibility of Adam's abuse of free will.

Here is where I differ from you. Correct me where I am wrong. Of course I may or may not receive the correction for I am human and you know how we are.

He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested,> (in the flesh) that he might destroy the works of the devil. 1 John 3:8

For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: Romans 8:3

What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. Psalms 8:4,5
Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, (As man, Adam was made.) he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;------- Lower than the angels in that he made him, of the flesh with his soul being (life) in the blood. For purpose. Does man = Adam?
Isn't that the exact reason Jesus gave for man needing to be born again / born from above?

Was Jesus the seed of David according to the flesh, born of the virgin, a little lower than the angels? R 1:3 H 2:9

Yet it is also stated.

Hath in these last days spoken unto us by Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things H 1:2 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? H 1:4,5 And declared the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead: R 1:4

Was Adam created as he was for purpose? As the figure of him to come? Natural or spiritual?

Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 1 C 15:46

Was sin already on the earth before Adam was created in the image of his creator?

 

[The Biblicist]

Here is where I differ from you. Correct me where I am wrong. Of course I may or may not receive the correction for I am human and you know how we are.

Of course.

He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested,> (in the flesh) that he might destroy the works of the devil. 1 John 3:8

"from the beginning" is usually a reference to the first three chapters of Genesis. We know he did not sin at his beginning, as he was not called "the devil" from his beginning but "Lucifer" an angel of light who was created "good."

For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: Romans 8:3

What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. Psalms 8:4,5
Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, (As man, Adam was made.) he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;------- Lower than the angels in that he made him, of the flesh with his soul being (life) in the blood. For purpose. Does man = Adam?
Isn't that the exact reason Jesus gave for man needing to be born again / born from above?

Was Jesus the seed of David according to the flesh, born of the virgin, a little lower than the angels? R 1:3 H 2:9

Yet it is also stated.

Hath in these last days spoken unto us by Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things H 1:2 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? H 1:4,5 And declared the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead: R 1:4

Was Adam created as he was for purpose? As the figure of him to come? Natural or spiritual?

Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 1 C 15:46

The body of Adam was designed to live on this NATURAL material earth and not heaven. It was made to be sustained by NATURAL material substances. It was also "soul" centered or driven. The resurrected body of Christ was "glorified" and thus made suited to live in heaven and on a glorified new earth. It is sustained SPIRITUALLY rather than by NATURAL substances (although it can partake of such). His body is not only "spirit" sustained but "spirit" driven or centered.

Was sin already on the earth before Adam was created in the image of his creator?

How could God look upon EVERYTHING on the Seventh day and pronounce it "very good" if sin and/or death were present and affecting creation?

 

[Darrell C]

I did not see your name or address listed anywhere!

Then you did not read closely enough:


1 Thessalonians 4:15-17

King James Version (KJV)

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


My Address will be Heaven.

I think the zip code is 1.

God does declare the end from the beginning. Revelation tells us broadly what will happen at the end of the age. But scripture does not declare every detail of every circumstance. Of course what God has predestined through prophecy will happen, but He did not prophesy everything that occurs. Plenty of room for happenstance and autonomous decisions by sinners. God's purpose is for fallen sinners to autonomously repent and turn to God, because in that way we bring Him glory.

God did not declare, for example, New Jerusalem prior to Revelation (though we see it mentioned in John 14).

My question was more to the point of what details do you speculate were not given, that would be necessary for us to have a Sound Eschatology?


God bless.

 

[Van]

Hi Darrel C, I was not questioning end times view, we are on pretty sound footing when we say God's purpose and plan will be fulfilled. I was questioning "exhaustive determinism" where God causes whatsoever come to pass.

 

[percho]

Of course.



"from the beginning" is usually a reference to the first three chapters of Genesis. We know he did not sin at his beginning, as he was not called "the devil" from his beginning but "Lucifer" an angel of light who was created "good."



The body of Adam was designed to live on this NATURAL material earth and not heaven. It was made to be sustained by NATURAL material substances. It was also "soul" centered or driven. The resurrected body of Christ was "glorified" and thus made suited to live in heaven and on a glorified new earth. It is sustained SPIRITUALLY rather than by NATURAL substances (although it can partake of such). His body is not only "spirit" sustained but "spirit" driven or centered.



How could God look upon EVERYTHING on the Seventh day and pronounce it "very good" if sin and/or death were present and affecting creation?

In your opinion when did the devil sin, relative to the creation of Adam from whom the woman was taken of whom the virgin was descended who gave birth to Jesus, the Son of the living God? IYO when and what was the first sin of the devil? What was the result of the sin of the devil, let's say relative to God's creation?

 

[The Biblicist]

In your opinion when did the devil sin, relative to the creation of Adam from whom the woman was taken of whom the virgin was descended who gave birth to Jesus, the Son of the living God? IYO when and what was the first sin of the devil? What was the result of the sin of the devil, let's say relative to God's creation?

The Bible does not provide any time period between the 7th day of creation and the time that Adam sinned.We know he did not sin prior to or on the 7th day or God could not pronounce all that he created and made as "very good" and both Lucifer and Adam were created by God as "good."

Lucifer fell sometime between the 7th day and the day Adam sinned.

 

[percho]

The Bible does not provide any time period between the 7th day of creation and the time that Adam sinned.We know he did not sin prior to or on the 7th day or God could not pronounce all that he created and made as "very good" and both Lucifer and Adam were created by God as "good."

Lucifer fell sometime between the 7th day and the day Adam sinned.

Thanks for your reply.

Would you agree that the Son of God being manifested in 1 John 3:8 is speaking of being manifested in the flesh? The Word made flesh?
Manifested in the flesh, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Was Adam created in the image of God for the purpose of the the Word to be made flesh, for the Son of God to be manifested, in the flesh?

Why? Why the need for Adam? For something that was going to take place after the creation of Adam?

I believe the devil sinned before Adam was created?

 

[TCassidy]

I believe the devil sinned before Adam was created?

Wow! Do you really think God is that bad a judge of character?

Genesis 1:31 "And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day."

So, we are left with 3 positions.

#1 The devil is "very good."

#2 God is a terrible judge of character.

#3 The devil fell after Genesis 1:31.

I think #3 gets it right.

 

[percho]

Wow! Do you really think God is that bad a judge of character?

Genesis 1:31 "And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day."

So, we are left with 3 positions.

#1 The devil is "very good."

#2 God is a terrible judge of character.

#3 The devil fell after Genesis 1:31.

I think #3 gets it right.

Do you think Michael, Gabriel and Lucifer are only about 7000 years old, just as is man?