Duh! This is not about the age of the angelic beings. It is about the FALL of Satan. The bible does not tell us how long he lived prior to the fall.
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Decretive/Permissive Will Or Both?
- Thread starter tyndale1946
- Start date
Personally, I think you guys are wrong about Lucifer being Satan. Now, the fall of Lucifer may be a 'shadow' of how Satan fell, but I believe Lucifer is pointing towards the King of Babylon, whether it be Nebuchadnezzar or Belshazzar.
Keep in mind that God's declaration of everything being good is related to that which was created at the time. I would agree that Satan fell prior to creation, Christ indicates this here:
Luke 10:17-19
King James Version (KJV)
17 And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.
18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
Note that the disciples are given power to tread on serpents and scorpions...and over all the power of The Enemy. We might view this as the Lord giving commentary concerning the Serpent of the Garden, which is indicated as a beast of the field, and then cursed above all others. In other words, the indication might be Satan's control over "serpents and scorpions" with which he seeks to hurt men. It might indicate Satan's possession of a literal beast. We know that the serpent of antiquity (Revelation 12:9; Revelation 20:2) is revealed as Satan, yet we also see the serpent described as a beast, a part of the creation God created.
This would have no relevance to the timing of Satan's fall, nor nullify a view that Satan not only pre-existed Creation, but fell prior to his intention to hurt man in this creation.
God bless.
There is no chronological order in the decrees of God but there is a logical order. Logically there must be a fall before their can be redemption or else redemption has no purpose. Christ was manifested in the flesh 4000 years AFTER creation. Hence, the only logical conclusion you can draw is that Satan fell somewhere between creation and the fall of Adam. He could not have fallen before day 7 because Lucifer was a creation of God and God looked upon ALL that He created and made in the seventh day and pronounced it as "very good." That would be an impossible pronouncement by God IF Lucifer the sinless archangel had already become Satan and sin were present in that creation - unless you believe God looks upon Satan and sin as "very good"????
The problem is that you fail to see responsible secondary causes for sin. Creation of free will automatically gives permission to use it freely and thus contrary to God's revealed will and that is sin. So the very creation of free will gives permission for sin to come into existence without giving it approval and without making God directly responsible for sin. When God created free will in Adam he also made Adam ultimately responsible for its negative use as God clearly revealed the only proper use while condemning its improper use. So sin is the cause and responsibility of secondary causes
You said...
Revelation tells us broadly what will happen at the end of the age. But scripture does not declare every detail of every circumstance.
My question would be...what details in regards to the Redemptive Plan of God are not given that might need to be given?
No, we are not told where someone in the Tribulation lives, but, we are told the specific details of living in that period.
And we see a determination which cannot be kicked at...
2 Thessalonians 2:10-12
King James Version (KJV)
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
The point is that we can see a determined outcome given, and this is from God, based on their rejection of the truth.
I think this same principle can be seen throughout Scripture, and remains a constant.
And that is all I have to say until I review the thread.
God bless.
I agree. However, common usage of "Lucifer" is a reference to the pre-fallen Satan, so, when understood in that context, no violence is done to the text of Isaiah 14:12.
Then you did not read closely enough:
1 Thessalonians 4:15-17
King James Version (KJV)
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
My Address will be Heaven.
I think the zip code is 1.
God did not declare, for example, New Jerusalem prior to Revelation (though we see it mentioned in John 14).
My question was more to the point of what details do you speculate were not given, that would be necessary for us to have a Sound Eschatology?
God bless.
You said...
Revelation tells us broadly what will happen at the end of the age. But scripture does not declare every detail of every circumstance.
My question would be...what details in regards to the Redemptive Plan of God are not given that might need to be given?
No, we are not told where someone in the Tribulation lives, but, we are told the specific details of living in that period.
And we see a determination which cannot be kicked at...
2 Thessalonians 2:10-12
King James Version (KJV)
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
The point is that we can see a determined outcome given, and this is from God, based on their rejection of the truth.
I think this same principle can be seen throughout Scripture, and remains a constant.
And that is all I have to say until I review the thread.
God bless.
Why is it brethren want to come on here and talk about Satan instead of the Savior?... You are walking on very dangerous ground but Satan likes that because that is taking you away from the one you should have your eye on and the one you really should be talking about... Think about this... You interest yourself to much in Satan he may also take an interest in you... All God wants you to know about Satan/The Devil is found in your Bible the rest is speculation... Remember what Jesus Christ told Peter... Satan has desired to sift you as wheat... Don't mess around with what you shouldn't be messing around with... Keep your focus on the Word of God!... Brother Glen
Last edited:
We are. The rebellion of Satan is an excellent example of the OP.
TC that is true but you have been in battle just like me and know what it is like to be a Soldier then and now... And how we are tempted daily by he who goes about like a raging lion seeking whom he may devour... I know my enemy very well... But we pay to much attention to a defeated foe... He was defeated at the cross and if not Jesus Christ would not have risen from the dead and we would still be in our sins... Like God told Satan in reference to Job, tempt him all you want but his life belongs to me... I'm glad that the decretive will of God was completed to a jot and a tittle... Jesus Christ said "It Is Finished!"... And it is... And God agreed!... Victory in Jesus, my Savior forever... He sought me and bought me with his redeeming blood!... Brother Glen
But none of that is the point of the OP.
Daniel informs us very clearly that there are demons behind the rulers of nations (Dan. 10:17-22). Lucifer is Satan behind the ruler of Babylon. Lucifer is behind the nations rising up against the Christs (Psa. 2). It is his legion of demons that empower and inspire the rulers of this world.
There is no way the characteristics found in Isaiah 14 can fit a human ruler but they can fit the true spiritual ruler behind him.
for the creation was subjected to futility, not of its own will but by the will of him who subjected it in hope; Rom 8:20
This futility the very good creation was subjected to was it also very good? Why did God plant a garden? Why did God put the man he had created in that garden, knowing that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, was in the garden? The creation wasn't subjected to futility, because of the man by his own will disobeying God. At least that's what I read that verse to say, but for the purpose of hope? What hope? IMHO the promise of God. The hope of eternal life? Was the very good Adam created with eternal life? With access to it but not with it. Then he was cut off from it.
Our pastor prayed tonight as we were leaving church for God to keep us from darkness, the evil one, Satan. I believe that to be the very same darkness that was upon the face of the deep on the earth in Genesis 1:2 The devil had already been doing his works and God was about to create man in his own image for the purpose of the Son of God to be manifested as man, to destroy the works of the devil. The man to be created would be subjected to futility, sold under sin and when the manifested Son of God destroyed the works of the devil, by being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit, the man who had been sold would be redeemed and could receive the redemption of the body, eternal life in the flesh.
For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.
You are confusing what is the consequences of sin versus what God eventually does work "for the good" of His people (Rom. 8:28). So no, sin and its consequences are not good, but God can work them utlimately for good (Rom.8:28). These consequences did not exist until AFTER day seven or else God could not look upon EVERYTHING and pronounce "very good." God can overrule evil for ultimate good but that does not prove evil existed when God pronounced "everything" as "very good." God cannot look upon sin or its consequences with approval but he can overrule it for ultimate good - Rom. 8:28.
Well it is obvious you are going to believe what you want to regardless of contrary facts. So be it!
Last edited:
We are never "walking on dangerous ground" when we expound upon the Whole Counsel, Glen. The Gospel is incomplete when we fail to teach people about Satan, adversary to both the lost and the saved.
These days, even among Christians there is a tendency to overlook Satan, Hell, and those issues which make one uncomfortable.
And I will be glad to talk with about my "speculation."
God bless.
>Baptist DEBATE Forums (Baptist Only)
No I am trying to debate my position.
In your opinion, at the end of the morning of the sixth day, was the devil already the devil or was he at that time still an angel of God? At that time had he already had works worthy of being destroyed?
At that moment, at the ending of the morning of the sixth day, was the figure of man, created as flesh and blood going to be the means through which God was going to destroy him who had the power of the death?
How was God going to accomplish the destruction of the devil and his works. What was the newly created man going to need to do in order for that to be accomplished?
At the end of the morning of the sixth day the newly created Adam was flesh and blood, a little lower than the angels. His children were born flesh and blood, a little lower than the angels. Hebrews 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; (A little lower than the angels. V 9) that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; ----- Wasn't that going to be necessary before the foundation of the world?
If the first man could have through his free will obedience have brought eternal life upon himself, could others have also after him? Would the devil and his works ever have been able to have been destroyed? How many would have saved themselves by being obedient or would that one man's obedience have brought righteousness for all?
Was Adam created as the hope or was he created subjected to futility in hope? If Adam by his free will could have saved himself from the serpent and his power there would have been no need for preordained redemption?
How many times do we have to tell you that we do not believe sin or the fall had occurred prior to the close of the SEVENTH DAY, but you keep asking on asking us the very same question.
Certainly God's purpose of redemption is eternal (Eph. 1:4-13; Heb. 13:20; Rev. 13:8) and thus preceding the act of creation as part of God's eternal purpose (Isa. 46:9-10).
We have told you there is no CHRONOLOGICAL order in the decrees of God but there is a LOGICAL order. That logical order is that the fall must precede redemption. There is no need of redemption apart from a previous fall. There is no need for salvation without previous sin.
Now read these next two statements carefully - There is no fall unless there is something that precedes it that they can fall from. Hence, a sinless state must logically precede a fallen state.
However, God's eternal purpose does not mean that sin was present during the first seven days of creation. You are assuming because God's eternal purpose included the fall and redemption that the fall had to occur prior to seventh day of creation. There is simply no logical or Biblical basis for such an assumption.
What is the relationship of the sin of the devil to the sin of Adam that brought the death to all men?
The serpent deceived Eve. What do you believe that deception of Eve had to do with Adam being drawn away in lust and temptation bringing forth to the both of them, being dead in trespass and sin? What was the lust of Adam?
I notice you have this connected to your posts.
To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. - Isa. 8:20
What is the light that is not in them? If light is not in them, what is in them?
There is no relationship except Adam followed Satan into sin. Satan's sin preceded Adam and Eve's sin.
God created Adam and Eve with godly "lusts" (desires). God created Eve for Adam and it was right for Adam to "lust" (desire) Eve. I personally believe that Adam's sin occurred by taking what was good (desire for Eve) and abusing it so that it became sin. The abuse was to love and choose to die with her rather than live and obey God.
It is referring to those whose doctrine and practices are not based upon the Word of God. Hence, God's Word is final authority even over supernatural experiences (Isa. 8:19).
Again, who is this "we" and "us" you keep referring to?
I do not take a position that sin did not exist prior to the Fall.
How can you say Adam followed Satan into sin if you believe...
Make up your mind, WE want to know what it is you actually believe. Do you mind accommodating US on that?
Why do you have me as saying this and why is the link to the other thread?
Don't you worry, my friend, I am not finished with your errors concerning the Baptism with the Holy Ghost.
You don't really expect US to believe that someone that can contradict the Word of Christ and say that the Comforter was already present in the world when Christ states clearly He cannot come until He returns to Heaven really believes the Word of God is the final Authority, do you?
WE are having a hard time with that one.
Now I would recommend you fix the quotes, so that the dishonesty with which you participate in discussions doesn't have such a glaring example of deceit.
And you might try to actually answer Percho's question, rather than worrying I will ignore you, lol.
I'll get to you, don't worry. I told you, I really do care about you, and I will give you the attention you need.
God bless.