Deeply Troubled

[salzer mtn]

There is something that has been bothering me for a long time about the church I have been attending for the last ten years. It is a Sovereign grace church that believes the five points of Cal. I guess I would have joined several years ago but for this one thing that the pastor and I can't agree on. The pastor was saved under a woman's ministry as a young man in the CoG, therefore when he converted to the doctrines of grace and continued to preach, but just a different gospel he totally denies he was ever saved in the beginning. Now he preaches only those that hear a sovereign grace message under a sovereign grace preacher can be saved. He uses Paul as the example as Paul counted everything he believed in before his conversion as dung. I have tried to explain to the pastor a convert can grow in grace and the knowledge of the truth but he say's until a person believes God is sovereign in salvation, meaning God gives it to whom he will, that person don't know Christ. Part of his definition of baptism is, the candidate is denying his previous confession of faith. For this division we have I am looked on by him and the church as one that has not repented of my former works. I will never recant of my salvation, as in my mind it would be the same as blasphemy against the Holy Ghost. Is this some of the beliefs of Lordship salvation, the pastor say's Christ is all to you or nothing at all, there is no grey in between.

 

[Revmitchell]

It has nothing to do with Lordship salvation. It has everything to do with equating Calvinism to the gospel.

 

[Winman]

There is something that has been bothering me for a long time about the church I have been attending for the last ten years. It is a Sovereign grace church that believes the five points of Cal. I guess I would have joined several years ago but for this one thing that the pastor and I can't agree on. The pastor was saved under a woman's ministry as a young man in the CoG, therefore when he converted to the doctrines of grace and continued to preach, but just a different gospel he totally denies he was ever saved in the beginning. Now he preaches only those that hear a sovereign grace message under a sovereign grace preacher can be saved. He uses Paul as the example as Paul counted everything he believed in before his conversion as dung. I have tried to explain to the pastor a convert can grow in grace and the knowledge of the truth but he say's until a person believes God is sovereign in salvation, meaning God gives it to whom he will, that person don't know Christ. Part of his definition of baptism is, the candidate is denying his previous confession of faith. For this division we have I am looked on by him and the church as one that has not repented of my former works. I will never recant of my salvation, as in my mind it would be the same as blasphemy against the Holy Ghost. Is this some of the beliefs of Lordship salvation, the pastor say's Christ is all to you or nothing at all, there is no grey in between.

As you know, I disagree completely with you on Calvinism, but nevertheless, I wouldn't do it.

You believed on Jesus years ago, and you were baptized. Good.

To be baptized like this would almost be a works salvation, in fact, your pastor seems to be insisting you have to be baptized "his way" to be saved.

I wouldn't do it.

 

[Reformed]

Lordship Salvation has more to do with whom God is, not man's understanding of God. No matter where we are in our knowledge and level of sanctification, we are woefully ignorant in our understanding compared to what we will understand in glory. We are constantly learning. Sanctification and discipleship are a process (Phil. 1:6). I am more concerned with what a person confesses about their standing with Christ, more than passing a prerequisite theological litmus test.

 

[The Biblicist]

There is something that has been bothering me for a long time about the church I have been attending for the last ten years. It is a Sovereign grace church that believes the five points of Cal. I guess I would have joined several years ago but for this one thing that the pastor and I can't agree on. The pastor was saved under a woman's ministry as a young man in the CoG, therefore when he converted to the doctrines of grace and continued to preach, but just a different gospel he totally denies he was ever saved in the beginning. Now he preaches only those that hear a sovereign grace message under a sovereign grace preacher can be saved. He uses Paul as the example as Paul counted everything he believed in before his conversion as dung. I have tried to explain to the pastor a convert can grow in grace and the knowledge of the truth but he say's until a person believes God is sovereign in salvation, meaning God gives it to whom he will, that person don't know Christ. Part of his definition of baptism is, the candidate is denying his previous confession of faith. For this division we have I am looked on by him and the church as one that has not repented of my former works. I will never recant of my salvation, as in my mind it would be the same as blasphemy against the Holy Ghost. Is this some of the beliefs of Lordship salvation, the pastor say's Christ is all to you or nothing at all, there is no grey in between.

I am sorry to hear your pastor takes this unbiblical position. We must draw lines where the Scriptures draws the line. The scripture draws the line with the doctrine of justification by faith (Rom. 3:24-5:22; Gal. 1-4) not with God's sovereign eternal purpose of election.

Anti-calvinists will attempt to take this to the other extreme and milk it for all it is worth. However, extremes are on both sides of this issue.

 

[convicted1]

Guys like that need to be avoided like the plague...

 

[RLBosley]

Guys like that need to be avoided like the plague...

Yep. This guy is just flat out wrong.

Reminds me of the KJVO who say you can't be saved if you read or are witnessed to with a translation other than the AV.

 

[salzer mtn]

I appriciate all that has answered

The Pastor is Antinomian (without Law) in his beliefs and practice and this is something else we have never agreed on. There are only two sovereign grace churches in my area, the pastors church is twenty five miles away and the other one in the opposite direction is forty five miles away but this church although sovereign grace is not Antinomian. Every church in short driving distance surrounding me is either rank Arminian or Baptist that believe in eternal salvation but hold to free will.

 

[kyredneck]

Surely in Tennessee you can find a sound sovereign grace Primitive or Old Regular Baptist Church to check out. Sounds like you've got some deep problems where you're at.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

The Pastor is Antinomian (without Law) in his beliefs and practice and this is something else we have never agreed on. There are only two sovereign grace churches in my area, the pastors church is twenty five miles away and the other one in the opposite direction is forty five miles away but this church although sovereign grace is not Antinomian. Every church in short driving distance surrounding me is either rank Arminian or Baptist that believe in eternal salvation but hold to free will.

Join the crew.....Chattanooga?

 

[padredurand]

There is something that has been bothering me for a long time about the church I have been attending for the last ten years. It is a Sovereign grace church that believes the five points of Cal. I guess I would have joined several years ago but for this one thing that the pastor and I can't agree on. The pastor was saved under a woman's ministry as a young man in the CoG, therefore when he converted to the doctrines of grace and continued to preach, but just a different gospel he totally denies he was ever saved in the beginning. Now he preaches only those that hear a sovereign grace message under a sovereign grace preacher can be saved. He uses Paul as the example as Paul counted everything he believed in before his conversion as dung. I have tried to explain to the pastor a convert can grow in grace and the knowledge of the truth but he say's until a person believes God is sovereign in salvation, meaning God gives it to whom he will, that person don't know Christ. Part of his definition of baptism is, the candidate is denying his previous confession of faith. For this division we have I am looked on by him and the church as one that has not repented of my former works. I will never recant of my salvation, as in my mind it would be the same as blasphemy against the Holy Ghost. Is this some of the beliefs of Lordship salvation, the pastor say's Christ is all to you or nothing at all, there is no grey in between.

I've read this several times now, though on it and had to come back one more time. This is the statement that has been on my mind, Now he preaches only those that hear a sovereign grace message under a sovereign grace preacher can be saved.. Now I don't know you from Adam but I know you don't mince words and believe what you believe with great conviction. If you're thinking what I'm thinking there is no way a man of God could sit down with the Word and rightfully conclude what your preacher feller has said. What I'm reading here is he's saying unless you heard it from me, under my teaching, in my church house, under my water you are unsaved. Balderdash!

I'm pretty sure you and I would disagree on many points of understanding on the means of Grace. I think one place we would be in agreement is that there ain't no church on your mountain or mine that can add a barrow full of conditions to what God has revealed in His Word. The Holy Spirit didn't need any help bringing you under conviction. Jesus and the message of the Cross didn't need any help in your redemption and certainly God doesn't need any help determining if you are among the elect which He has promised to save!

I get why you hurt. I get why you stay. You don't need validation from them folk. They had no hand in your salvation and have no right to question it through a distorted lens of their own making. Keep the Faith! :jesus:

 

[Revmitchell]

What I'm reading here is he's saying unless you heard it from me, under my teaching, in my church house, under my water you are unsaved. Balderdash!

Actually what that means is if you are not a Calvinist you are not saved.

 

[convicted1]

Actually what that means is if you are not a Calvinist you are not saved.

Pretty much what that pastor said, imo. I WHOLEHEARTEDLY disagree with that "pastor", btw...

 

[Thousand Hills]

I've read this several times now, though on it and had to come back one more time. This is the statement that has been on my mind, Now he preaches only those that hear a sovereign grace message under a sovereign grace preacher can be saved.. Now I don't know you from Adam but I know you don't mince words and believe what you believe with great conviction. If you're thinking what I'm thinking there is no way a man of God could sit down with the Word and rightfully conclude what your preacher feller has said. What I'm reading here is he's saying unless you heard it from me, under my teaching, in my church house, under my water you are unsaved. Balderdash!

I'm pretty sure you and I would disagree on many points of understanding on the means of Grace. I think one place we would be in agreement is that there ain't no church on your mountain or mine that can add a barrow full of conditions to what God has revealed in His Word. The Holy Spirit didn't need any help bringing you under conviction. Jesus and the message of the Cross didn't need any help in your redemption and certainly God doesn't need any help determining if you are among the elect which He has promised to save!

I get why you hurt. I get why you stay. You don't need validation from them folk. They had no hand in your salvation and have no right to question it through a distorted lens of their own making. Keep the Faith! :jesus:

Well said, Padre. :thumbsup:

 

[Yeshua1]

It has nothing to do with Lordship salvation. It has everything to do with equating Calvinism to the gospel.

That is true, for while Calvinism might be the best way to understand what salvation is from the biblical perspective, that saves NO sinner, as its the Cross of Christ that saves us!

 

[Yeshua1]

Actually what that means is if you are not a Calvinist you are not saved.

When God saved me by His grace, I did not even know fully what Calvinism/arminianism etc actually taught, but the good news is that we need to receive jesus thru faith, and then once saved, we will start to flesh out what we believe in and why! For if salvation means passing a theology quiz, thinks all sinners would flunk that!

 

[Van]

Your deep theological thinking would fit right in in San Francisco where they believe you have to pass the legislation before you can find out what is in it!

Yeshua! now asserts he was not saved through faith, but was saved and then learned what he believed in and why! One brand of Calvinism is just as confused as the next.

A sovereign grace church teaches God chooses individuals for salvation not through faith, but unconditionally. Thus a doctrine of balderdash from beginning to end. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 teaches God chooses individuals for salvation through faith in the truth. So simple a cave man could understand it.

 

[steaver]

There is something that has been bothering me for a long time about the church I have been attending for the last ten years. It is a Sovereign grace church that believes the five points of Cal. I guess I would have joined several years ago but for this one thing that the pastor and I can't agree on. The pastor was saved under a woman's ministry as a young man in the CoG, therefore when he converted to the doctrines of grace and continued to preach, but just a different gospel he totally denies he was ever saved in the beginning. Now he preaches only those that hear a sovereign grace message under a sovereign grace preacher can be saved. He uses Paul as the example as Paul counted everything he believed in before his conversion as dung. I have tried to explain to the pastor a convert can grow in grace and the knowledge of the truth but he say's until a person believes God is sovereign in salvation, meaning God gives it to whom he will, that person don't know Christ. Part of his definition of baptism is, the candidate is denying his previous confession of faith. For this division we have I am looked on by him and the church as one that has not repented of my former works. I will never recant of my salvation, as in my mind it would be the same as blasphemy against the Holy Ghost. Is this some of the beliefs of Lordship salvation, the pastor say's Christ is all to you or nothing at all, there is no grey in between.

Wow! For the life of me I cannot understand why these type of misguided preachers actually maintain a following. But then look at all the cults which began from one man's definitions concerning the teachings of the scriptures. Does this man have a board of Elders that he must answer to? Or is he a one man show? Of course some men hand pick their Elders so they can have "yes" men on their side. My brother was part of a church were the preacher was allowed to pick the Elders, big surprise that they all always agreed with what the pastor wanted to do.

 

[convicted1]

Wow! For the life of me I cannot understand why these type of misguided preachers actually maintain a following. But then look at all the cults which began from one man's definitions concerning the teachings of the scriptures. Does this man have a board of Elders that he must answer to? Or is he a one man show? Of course some men hand pick their Elders so they can have "yes" men on their side. My brother was part of a church were the preacher was allowed to pick the Elders, big surprise that they all always agreed with what the pastor wanted to do.

I have said for quite a while there is more "politicking" in the local chiurches and/or associations than on Captial Hill....:tear:

 

[salzer mtn]

In some churches today regardless of the belief, you have congregations that will not study for themselves but believe every word that comes out of the pulpit, and before long you have preacher worship. To answer the question, No there are no deacons, no business meetings that include the congregation. I could go on and on with this but it is what it is. I think anyone can take the truth and go to the very extreme with it in their thinking without balance and it becomes untruth. I covet your prayers in this matter, Gary.