Defending God

[El_Guero]

MP

You are so right! Everyone can try to discourage God in my life, but noone can over power the King . . .

How has God been taken out of our lives? No one else can do that; no court, no government, no teacher, no clergy . . . no one. As for the government and public schools, that is the Constitution, not lack of defending God. The government and the public schools belong to everyone, not just believers. Besides, you cannot take God out of anything, we do not have that power. However, it is fitting that the government maintain a neutral stance toward religion.

 

[Mary Diana Lynn Harper]

I stand corrected.

Menargeekeeper, thank you. :love2: :wavey:

 

[El_Guero]

Gina,

The root question should be, "Does God need us to defend Him?

Knowing that a Special Forces soldier can take 2 or more years to train . . . and knowing that body guards of dignitaries are highly trained soldiers (or police) . . .

I know that when the captain of the guard for Jesus looked to the Father and waited for the command to eliminate the romans as the killed the Son . . . he was not permitted to exercise his (and his soldiers) capabilities against a MUCH inferior roman detachment.

When the Son mounts that white horse . . . his body guard get to finally do their job . . .

If God can ask (command) that group of elite personal body guards to wait . . . sometimes we can feel privileged when we have the opportunity to witness . . .

And what is witnessing? It is letting the Lion that is the Truth of the Gospel out of the bag . . .

You see:

(1) He can deny the Gospel;
(2) He can deny part of the Gospel;
(3) He can pretend that he has 'time to make a decision later';
OR, (4) he can admit that Jesus is Who He is . . .

Everyone will choose number 4 someday . . . so, why not today?


I am praying for you!

Wayne

Does God need us to defend Him?
No, that's silly.

But...does He WANT us to defend Him?

In what form?

My question arises mostly from one class I am taking at the college, partially two but that's not important.

In the past I have always been able to gently introduce my opinions on the topic of Christianity when I felt it wasn't getting "fair play".

However, two classes this term - one in particular - are posing problems in this are.

The main one is happening because the instructor's attitude is that Christianity is just another religion that rose up with other monotheistic religions, an old idea that some people still cling too. That in itself doesn't even become a problem UNTIL he presents it in a mocking manner. For example, stating that someone said "God bless you" and going on to snicker that it's obvious there's a causal effect for the blessing and you know exactly how it happened and it wasn't God.

I'm always thrown when we start a new quarter but then I get my ground and work around stuff, but this class is really causing some spiritual discontent. I can't figure out a way to say anything, yet I'm very uncomfortable with saying nothing. This is all lecture, there's really not too much interaction. You CAN, but what is happening is that these comments are most often side comments and don't come at a time when it would make sense to interrupt.

I left today, and don't know whether it was him or my body or my spirit making me feel physically ill. So yes, it's really really that serious to me.

I hate sitting there and hearing God mocked. Then again, it's happening all around us and I don't react quite like this. Although I guess this is different because it's meant directly for us to hear, and because it appears most of the class agrees with him. So...taking it personally to him and saying "I find the presentation of some of this material bothersome" doesn't seem like it would do much. It wouldn't change how he feels, only how he expresses it while I'm in the class.
And the rest of the class wouldn't hear it, so I'm thinking a private approach would be hopeless.

Anyone with a suggestion on how to approach this, feel free to jump in here! I'm not shy so it's not a matter of not having the nerve or anything...it's a matter of how. And of course, that delicate little matter of not making the person hate you who is giving you your grade. :1_grouphug: (can't we all just get along?) So far I've been able to manage that one with other unbelievers as instructors, but this one just is beyond me right now!

 

[Mary Diana Lynn Harper]

Spirit

hey, maybe that is the way the spirit is telling you that this is not a good class to be in and it would be better for you to find another alternative to this class. Sometimes, we are meant to say nothing and I believe you did good by leaving this class. If the spirit lead you than bravo for you. We all learn through our lives when the best time to sit or stand is better. One on one I can hold my own, but in a class of my peers or better yet a whole group of non-believers it is better for me to bow out because of the tongue. I would go off of the deep end. :tongue3: and that is not God like for me to argue in this manner. :saint:

 

[Mary Diana Lynn Harper]

Another thing

Sorry, maybe you can find another teacher who teaches the thing you are wanting to learn, trying transferring from that class, just a suggestion. Whatever you do, don't be discouraged because the devil likes that when he can shake your faith. Love And Trust God for the answer. He will not let you down. :type:

 

[Magnetic Poles]

This great country was founded on religious freedom, God, the persucution of our forefathers, <snip>

Which forefathers? The Pilgrims who persecuted other Christian denominations? The Catholics who founded Maryland? The Quakers in Pennsylvania? The early settlers were not very tolerant and persecuted other Christians, but that was all pre-USA.

If you want proof about a child being outest out of school because of their religious belief, I can not give you that

No evidence, your statement is meaningless.

When children started school back years ago, they began each day with the pledge of allegience. Under God. Have you forgotten?

The pledge did not include "under God" until the 1950s. I also question a recitiation of pledging my allegiance to anything. The Supreme Court has ruled that children do not have to participate in the pledge. Many have religious reasons for not doing so. Do you want to deprive them of this religious freedom?

Just cause I can not afford to send my children to a christian school:applause: does not mean that they should be punished by non believers just because. I am old enough to realize the values of God in my home, in my childrens lifes and in my government.

No, but you could start a school in your church, or homeschool them. Your financial situation doesn't give you the right to teach other peoples' children your religion over that of their parents in the public school.

God should be in every aspect of our lifes, especially here in the United States of this Great America. Even on coins it says IN GOD WE TRUST, not in man we trust.

The statute requiring all currency to have the phrase was, like the modified pledge, a McCarthy era addition with no bearing on the basis of our law.

 

[Mary Diana Lynn Harper]

maji

If you chose to belittle God at every turn around, that is your right but you are wrong. Don't try and turn around our country. Or the way it was founded. You have some beef with your country, this is not the place for it. The story about the child is true weather you believe it or not it was on television and frankly maybe you had better sit back and rethink your reasoning. Sounds to me like you are trying to disreguard God in every aspect of our life. Are you an atheiest? this country was built on God's foundation not man. He delivered our forefathers from the persucutions of the past. Maybe you have a beef with God. I will pray for you because you are my brother just as my brother is my brother. I will also ask God for guidance in what I will say next. It was good enough for our forfathers and God,:godisgood: it is good enough for me.

 

[Mary Diana Lynn Harper]

and where my children are concerned.

back then when I raised my children there was no such thing as homeschooling. At least not to my knowledge or maybe us hicks just couldn't afford to send our children to the well know christian schools. Don't belittle what you have not idea we go through. Not all of us are born with a silver spoon in our mouths. Maybe that is what you are angry about. There will always be poor people who are richer than the richest people in the world because they have God. Do you have God?:saint:

 

[Magnetic Poles]

If you chose to belittle God at every turn around, that is your right but you are wrong. Don't try and turn around our country. Or the way it was founded. You have some beef with your country, this is not the place for it. The story about the child is true weather you believe it or not it was on television and frankly maybe you had better sit back and rethink your reasoning. Sounds to me like you are trying to disreguard God in every aspect of our life. Are you an atheiest? this country was built on God's foundation not man. He delivered our forefathers from the persucutions of the past. Maybe you have a beef with God. I will pray for you because you are my brother just as my brother is my brother. I will also ask God for guidance in what I will say next. It was good enough for our forfathers and God,:godisgood: it is good enough for me.

First of all, where have I belittled God? As for the nation's founding, you need to do some study. You are wrong.

You make a claim about a child being expelled for believing in God. If you make an assertion, YOU have the burden of proof. Provide evidence. If not, it is hearsay. This is a debate forum. In debates, you will be challenged to provide evidence to support your assertions.

 

[Magnetic Poles]

back then when I raised my children there was no such thing as homeschooling. At least not to my knowledge or maybe us hicks just couldn't afford to send our children to the well know christian schools. Don't belittle what you have not idea we go through. Not all of us are born with a silver spoon in our mouths. Maybe that is what you are angry about. There will always be poor people who are richer than the richest people in the world because they have God. Do you have God?:saint:

Again, you speak out of ignorance, Mary. I certainly have no silver spoon. And I am not angry, so I don't know where you get that either, other than projecting your own feelings. Like I said in another thread, I pray that you find some peace in your life.

 

[El_Guero]

I have :jesus: does He count?

:saint:

 

[Magnetic Poles]

I have :jesus: does He count?

:saint:

Of course he does, EG! :thumbs:

 

[Mary Diana Lynn Harper]

I know what I know

One of these days I will run across the article of proof and when that day comes I will rejoice not that I was right but you will have to humble yourself to God.:type: . You need to go back in your book and history, it was religious persucution that the people left and founded this America.
You are a know it all and someday you will find out you know nothing like me. AMEN us country folks, will humbly bow in front of God, will you? Are you saved, would you like me to help me say the prayer of repentance for you. Dear Heavenly Father, forgive my ignorance but guide my heart and my ways to follow Thee.

 

[Gina B]

Yes, of course we are to defend Him!

Mark 8:38
Luke 9:26

Today so many christians are backing down, shrinking away from any conflict, told to be 'tolerant' while the world abuses our Lord, our beliefs and are totally irreverent, blasphemous, and heretical in their flaming criticisms! Should we not be able to speak out for truth? Did not Martin Luther speak out, take noble risks for which we've had such great benefit?

2B, I have looked up these verses, and my conclusion is that they do not support a "defense of God".

I am not ashamed, and do speak out. However, I keep quiet if

1. I know I am angry and cannot present without causing damage.

Is this anger wrong? No, it is just, but..."be angry and sin not." Right?

2. If the timing is inappropriate. This is my main problem in this situation. I am not being presented with an appropriate way of butting into his lecture.

I guess the best thing right now would be to pray for an opening!

Regarding leaving the class: My stomach led the way. I really don't know if what he said just made me sick, or if I was really sick. It could have been either. I haven't felt that great lately, but I also do tend to react pretty strongly on the physical aspect when confronted with behavior like that. It is distressing.

Find another instructor? It's a thought, but I'm sitting here feeling like that would be the easy way out. What good would it do anyone but me? I'm in a roomful of unbelievers who are being influenced by an unbelieving teacher. What better place for a Christian? AND I'm getting college credits for it.
Again, the frustration is in being in the situation without being able to actually do anything as of yet, and not being quite sure of the next step.

This is a challenge to me, and I'm not backing out of it. His type of personality and the way he presents himself is the worst possibly scenario. (and his yin/yang earring really annoys me, it's just not the right size for his head) This type of personality is one I have almost zero tolerance for...the kind where you just look at the person and flush. I know I will learn from this. I'd just rather not learn at the expense of someone's potential spiritual life if it could have been prevented.

And Mary, please don't equate being country with being simple and/or stupid, and don't be prideful or think yourself more holy for being "country". If you don't know much and admit it, go learn more instead of taking a stand without the knowledge. That's about as wise as getting behind the wheel of a car without ever having bothered to learn what does what. Why just ask for forgiveness when you can actually fix the problem and not HAVE that problem anymore?

I do agree that kids have been expelled from public schools for their religion, although the real reason was wrapped in a protective cloak. For example, the little girl kicked out for refusing to quit saying "under God" in the pledge...and it was labelled defiance. Can I prove it? No. It's hearsay and was presented in testimony. Yes it's illegal, but it happens. A lot of things that are technically illegal still happen. Unless someone has the desire, time, and money to fight it though, it goes relatively unnoticed by the nation.

So Magnetic Poles, while there may be no solid proof and it may not be able to be "officially" used in a debate, there's still room for the topic in an informal type of discussion/debate as happens on here. I didn't list this as a formal debate, so I really don't mind personal experiences or discussion of things that someone is quite sure happened. Now if we were being asked to act in some major way on what she said and there was no solid proof, that would be different. I didn't see that though.

Man, do I sound BOSSY today or what? I'm gonna go relax a bit, it's been a tense day!

 

[Allan]

Then try what I wrote earlier, Gina

Yes, scripture also states we are to "contend for the faith".

Jud 1:3 ¶ Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort [you] that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

Contend = fight or struggle.
Then are some others as well.

or

Gal 2:11 ¶ But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.
Gal 2:12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.
Gal 2:13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.
Gal 2:14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before [them] all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?

Now both of these selection of verses deal with those speading false teaching within the church, but the same principle applies in our lives amoungst other people not of like faith. We are not to berate them, but identify their error and speak the truth IF the situation warrents it.

What do I mean by that: Is he blantantly withstanding Christianity or he is making fun of it because he thinks it is just silly superstition. One is direct opposition with intent destroy a faith, the other is mere childishness of someone who is uneducated in this field of study.

In this, I see only one that NEEDs to be addressed (either to him or His superiors) and the other is one that can be squelched somewhat by getting with others of the class and talking up Christ. It then becomes a great witnessing time.

 

[Allan]

menageriekeeper


Scriptures state:

Eph 4:26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:

We have every right AT TIMES to be angry, but we have no right to allow that anger to cause us TO sin.

And yes, Jesus did defend himself.

When the religous leaders tried to being doubt about who is really was, Jesus defended His teachings by telling them who He was (ex. Before Abraham was, I AM.) When they tried to bring doubt about His ability to understand the Law in relation to salvation, Jesus would again show THIER ineptness at understanding. Jesus DID contend for the faith but He had much more....ummm....style about how He did it. Then again He was/is God in the flesh. And He will AGAIN though more substantially contend at His second Coming.

 

[2BHizown]

O.K. Obviously all this has you both confused and upset!

Take a different stance and consider; If you dont take a stand and declare who you are in Christ and why it is important to your life why not? What would your reasons be?

raying:

 

[Gina B]

Ok, time for an update. I'm so excited. I'll try to update this throughout the quarter so we can see how it starts and ends.

Today was pretty decent. I know your prayers were there!

There was a very basic give and take that happened, but it was still enough to crack that door open!

We had been discussing philosophers and Athens and all that good stuff and while discussing their stance, he commented that the ones we were discussing were the "first to approach things from the humanistic view without the idea of divinity." He threw in other comments, including a clear idea that science and religion are incompatible.

I am really paraphrasing this whole thing to make it shorter.

Then he paused...so I asked: Were there any who still stood up for the idea of science being compatible with religion?"

Up till then the implication had been no, but the answer was yes and were given when I asked.

He mentioned that Christianity hadn't shown up yet. Again, another pause, another chance to question. So I asked:

"What is your definition of when Christianity started?"

His answer was that generically, it started with Christ. I liked that answer, hehe, but not the way he intended it.

So I asked: "I am somewhat confused by that answer, because in the Scriptures, Jesus quotes the Bible. So if the Bible was there, wasn't there a form of Christianity present?"

Answer: Well...yes.

"I assume when you say Christianity you refer to what stemmed from what you have called Judaism?"

"Yes, Christianity is an offshoot of Judaism, so I guess it was pre-Christianity and it was there."

A bit more discussion, talk about how creation stories exist in all cultures, etc., and ended by saying that within a few weeks, we can have an evolution/creation debate/discussion in the classroom.

I just had to share that. I know how these classes can get and what can happen in them to people with my stance, but being humiliated and embarassed is tolerable. What's important is that the truth will be presented instead of just one viewpoint. That just really made my day. It may not sound like much, but if you'd been there and heard what I've heard and the manner presented, this was like a leap across the grand canyon imo!

And I'm still grinning. :godisgood: I needed that today!

 

[2BHizown]

Wow, God is so good! Yes, you did need a spirit booster and that surely sounds like a huge beginning!
By semesters end he may even admit to the fact that Christ was present at the creation! Your own mission field there Gina!
God bless! Word upon word, precept upon precept, little by little! You were faithful!

 

[Humblesmith]

The question is whether we should "defend God." Well, scripture doesn't exactly phrase it that way, but to get to the underlying point:

Yes, we are to defend the faith. Scripture commands us to. Allan rightly pointed to Jude 3, where it says to "earnestly contend" for the faith, which means to fight vigorously, or to defend in a court of law.

Also 1 Peter 3:15: Always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is within you, with meekness and fear.

2 Corinthians 10:5, We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God.

In Acts 17:16-17, Paul reasoned in the synagogue, as well as in the marketplace with those who happened to be there. Note: reasoned....

Titus 1:9: Encourage sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it.

In Philippians 1:7, Paul says he was defending and confirming the Gospel. Note: defending again.....

There are others, but you get the point. So we are commanded to exhort people and defend the gospel. The question for you is what is the appropriate way.....?

Since the class is all the prof lecturing, he controls the class. Likely he will not take kindly to you confronting him in his realm, the classroom. I would take the advice given earlier in this thread, and speak to him afterward. I would do it by finding an apologetics book, and giving it to him, asking "I found this book to be interesting, and I think it presents a very sound defense of the Christian position. Will you read it and tell me what you think?"

Then after the course is over and you have your grade, you can confront him more directly. If he hasn't read the book, you can gently challenge him again, saying that the book answers all his questions and refutes his positions, and in the spirit of academia you challenge him again to read it.

There are many good Christian apologetics books. Start with www.impactapologetics.com, or do a search for Christian Apologetics and you'll find many excellent ones. if you have a specific area of specialty for this prof, I could recommend one. Pray for this lost man, and pray for your own defense. Don't try to do this alone, stick with other strong believers.