Defending our Military

[saturneptune]

If you hate the military so much as you appear to do, why don't you go some place where we no longer have a military presence?

Laos, where there is government sponsored Christian persecution might be a good place for you to set up shop.

I was thinking North Korea. He could start a church there, and put a copy of some of his posts on the outside of the building.

 

[LadyEagle]

LadyEagle, here:

First, Sapper, Thank you for what you do in service to our nation. But, by the way, I give you permission to derail this thread and carry on this discussion.

Same with you, poncho. I would rather have this thread derailed than to have most of the other threads derailed. And as long as the discussion remains civil and kind and no personal attacks, I will keep this thread open, even past the 10 page limit, if necessary.

Secondly, poncho, I do agree with a lot of what you say, and thank you for apologizing on this thread.

Now, as I see it, the problem is with the politicians. They lie to us.

And one of the reasons for so much confusion is that they haven't followed the Constitution - Congress has not made a formal declaraton of war since WW2.

We had no business in Viet Nam. Politicians got us there. We had no business in Iraq or Afghanistan let alone "nation building" while fighting a war. Policies of politicians got us there, based on bad intel and pressure from lobbyists (Iraqi National Congress for one).

The American people, like me, are sick of war. We are sick of seeing our money thrown into wars and nation building and foreign "aid" to people who hate us. Libya was a prime example of us arming "rebels" who were some of the same people who were fighting against our troops in Iraq. The American people are sick of seeing caskets coming home (notice how they are never seen on TV? Why do you think there is a government/news blackout on our fallen? Not because of the families, a few maybe, but the politicians know there would have been such a clamor from the American people over it, they decided to cover it up as much as possible. Oh, how nice the presidents do the dutiful thing and lay a wreath at the Tomb of the Unknown every Memorial Day. All the while they send our troops into wars that have no Constitutional basis..)

It is all very disgusting. I don't blame the military. I blame the politicians. They all tell us that our military is needed to "protect our foreign interests" but the truth is our military is being used as cannon fodder to protect the globalists, and on that, you are right, poncho. But I don't blame our military. Because our military doesn't care if if the CIC is a Democrat and the creepist fellow on the planet or a Republican and the creepiest fellow on the planet. They follow orders. It is not the military's fault that gays are allowed to be open in the military and that the DOD celebrated Gay Pride recently. That falls under the political appointment, the Secretary of Defense who is carrying out the orders of the current president. Politicians once again. The Root of all Evil.

The focus of the criticism is the politicians, not the military.

Again, some have commented that our military is corrupt. I don't believe the average soldier is corrupt. But if so, the corruption starts at the top, with the CIC and the politicians on both sides that get us into these unnecessary wars.

I agree with you, poncho, on a lot of what you say. But unlike you, I do believe there are people who want to kill us and destroy our nation (and they say so, they call us the Great Satan). The corruption part? Yes, those same people have infiltrated our military as evidenced at Fort Hood. Our politicians and military leaders are too concerned about being politically correct. Corruption? Yes, our politicians on both sides of the aisle have made investments in companies with military contracts and gotten rich off of them (insider trading - what you and I would be in prison for) when they knew they would be voting on funding, etc.

Yes, poncho. There is corruption, but it lies with our leaders from both parties. Not with the troops. Over and out.

 

[freeatlast]

LadyEagle, here:


Again, some have commented that our military is corrupt. I don't believe the average soldier is corrupt. But if so, the corruption starts at the top, with the CIC and the politicians on both sides that get us into these unnecessary wars.

I agree with you, poncho, on a lot of what you say. But unlike you, I do believe there are people who want to kill us and destroy our nation (and they say so, they call us the Great Satan). The corruption part? Yes, those same people have infiltrated our military as evidenced at Fort Hood. Our politicians and military leaders are too concerned about being politically correct. Corruption? Yes, our politicians on both sides of the aisle have made investments in companies with military contracts and gotten rich off of them (insider trading - what you and I would be in prison for) when they knew they would be voting on funding, etc.

Yes, poncho. There is corruption, but it lies with our leaders from both parties. Not with the troops. Over and out.

If the troops follow the corrupt orders they also are corrupt.

 

[LadyEagle]

If the troops follow the corrupt orders they also are corrupt.

Following that line of logic then, that would mean that since our tax dollars are used to fund evil/corruption (such as Planned Parenthood) or propping up dictators around the globe or funding operatives/nations that kill, rape, and plunder innocent people (such as Fast and Furious) and we are following orders by paying taxes, then we are are all evil and/or corrupt. Totally disagree with this train of thought.

 

[ktn4eg]

Following that line of logic then, that would mean that since our tax dollars are used to fund evil/corruption (such as Planned Parenthood) or propping up dictators around the globe or funding operatives/nations that kill, rape, and plunder innocent people (such as Fast and Furious) and we are following orders by paying taxes, then we are are all evil and/or corrupt. Totally disagree with this train of thought.

I'm with you on your approach.

Not intending to cast erroneous assertions of some BB posters, but I'm wondering if some of our BB friends (And I, indeed, consider all the BB community to be my friends and brethren [and "cisterns" too LOL!]) in Christ!) ever spent much time "in the shoes (boots maybe)" of most of the average GI grunts.

(BTW, Many of them may have enlisted because they had little financial/economic/vocationa lprospects elsewhere--but that's a subject for a different forum/thread.)

What, in reality, are these "politicians' pawns" supposed to do? Go AWOL? Tell their commander(s) "I quit"?

It's easy for some of our BB posters to pontificate from their bubble-enclosed ivory tower perspectives, but when the rubber meets the road, I just wonder what alternatives they would opt for if they were in the shoes (boots) of our ground pounders.

Give these average Joe's a break!! It's easy to take a broad brush approach that with one fell swoop you've demeaned these men and women---especially as long as you personally don't have a horse in their race.

(Getting off my soap box now.)

--- ktn4eg --- Retired military veteran (1964-1969 USAF, 1988-2003 TN Air National Guard)

 

[saturneptune]

Everyone has their right to their opinion, as that is why we defend freedom and liberty. However, a mininal amount of knowledge is required to hold a basic discussion, and at least one in this thread does not possess that. It all comes down to the fact that some serve, and some sit around and flap their jaws about something they are totally clueless about.

 

[freeatlast]

Following that line of logic then, that would mean that since our tax dollars are used to fund evil/corruption (such as Planned Parenthood) or propping up dictators around the globe or funding operatives/nations that kill, rape, and plunder innocent people (such as Fast and Furious) and we are following orders by paying taxes, then we are are all evil and/or corrupt. Totally disagree with this train of thought.

No, because the Lord already made it clear we must pay taxes, He did, and held no responsibility through payiong the tax for the evil in those who do the corruption. Our military is all volunteer so they are responsible for the actions that take place even if ordered as they have the option to refuse an unjust order.

 

[saturneptune]

No, because the Lord already made it clear we must pay taxes, He did, and held no responsibility through payiong the tax for the evil in those who do the corruption. Our military is all volunteer so they are responsible for the actions that take place even if ordered as they have the option to refuse an unjust order.

As in this thread, as in all the other threads, you totally misunderstand. The Lord told us that civil authority was placed there by Him, and that we are to obey the law and pay taxes. It just so happens that you live in a country where you can do something about the leadership through the vote, or activisim if you could get up out of your chair. We are to do what the Lord says, not analyze why He allowed who is in office, or the policies they pursue. Usually, we get the leaders we deserve, and if there is corruption in the authority structure, then it is a reflection of us or what we deserve. In this nation, we the people elected them.

Since you never served, never did much anything to affect change to your way of thinking, I really do not see where you have any complaints.

It is like your complaints about the military, degrading them but not serving, or playing Monday morning quarterback when it comes to human suffering and doing nothing to help but criticize.

Do you recall the parable of the Good Samartan? If we were going to put it into a riddle, we could say, why did the Levi priest cross the road? Ring a bell? Ding-a-ling?

Someday, in some shape form or fashion, you are going to be forced to exercise your faith in the real world, maybe in circumstances we can only imagine in foreign lands now, in a manner besides negative and demeaning words coming out of <edited to "your" - LE> mouth.

 

[Don]

As in this thread, as in all the other threads, you totally misunderstand. The Lord told us that civil authority was placed there by Him, and that we are to obey the law and pay taxes. It just so happens that you live in a country where you can do something about the leadership through the vote, or activisim if you could get up out of your chair. We are to do what the Lord says, not analyze why He allowed who is in office, or the policies they pursue. Usually, we get the leaders we deserve, and if there is corruption in the authority structure, then it is a reflection of us or what we deserve. In this nation, we the people elected them.

Since you never served, never did much anything to affect change to your way of thinking, I really do not see where you have any complaints.

It is like your complaints about the military, degrading them but not serving, or playing Monday morning quarterback when it comes to human suffering and doing nothing to help but criticize.

Do you recall the parable of the Good Samartan? If we were going to put it into a riddle, we could say, why did the Levi priest cross the road? Ring a bell? Ding-a-ling?

Someday, in some shape form or fashion, you are going to be forced to exercise your faith in the real world, maybe in circumstances we can only imagine in foreign lands now, in a manner besides negative and demeaning words coming out of <edited to "your" LE> mouth.

SN, you're fighting a losing battle. FAL's mind is made up; no amount of logic will change it.

Remember: he works for, or has worked for, some civilian corporation that has the same limitations that he puts upon the military -- obey your superiors, or don't. In his case, not obeying would have led to firing and joblessness. I don't know his personal situation--he might have actually stood against what he was ordered to do, and been fired for it--but is now receiving government unemployment. Or he didn't, and he's still employed. He could be disabled, sitting in a wheelchair typing his responses with a pencil because of his infirmity; but the result is the same: He knowingly and willingly abides by the same government regulations, rules, and laws in order to continue receiving a paycheck.

Let him rail against the military all he wants, because he's just as guilty of supporting this "evil government" as those he rails against. And that, my friend, is what's known as "hypocrisy."

So don't let your blood pressure get raised because of him; let it go. When he posts something completely false because of his ignorance, don't respond to him; respond to what he posts, in order to educate others and make sure they don't, through their own ignorance, come to believe that what he says is true.

 

[freeatlast]

As in this thread, as in all the other threads, you totally misunderstand. The Lord told us that civil authority was placed there by Him, and that we are to obey the law and pay taxes. It just so happens that you live in a country where you can do something about the leadership through the vote, or activisim if you could get up out of your chair. We are to do what the Lord says, not analyze why He allowed who is in office, or the policies they pursue. Usually, we get the leaders we deserve, and if there is corruption in the authority structure, then it is a reflection of us or what we deserve. In this nation, we the people elected them.

Since you never served, never did much anything to affect change to your way of thinking, I really do not see where you have any complaints.

It is like your complaints about the military, degrading them but not serving, or playing Monday morning quarterback when it comes to human suffering and doing nothing to help but criticize.

Do you recall the parable of the Good Samartan? If we were going to put it into a riddle, we could say, why did the Levi priest cross the road? Ring a bell? Ding-a-ling?

Someday, in some shape form or fashion, you are going to be forced to exercise your faith in the real world, maybe in circumstances we can only imagine in foreign lands now, in a manner besides negative and demeaning words coming out of <edited to "your" - LE> mouth.

So if we live under a king that says murder all the first born males you will obey, correct? Is that what you are trying to say? You are assuming I have not already exercised my faith and suffered for it. Isn't that a little judgmental without knowledge? Pay no mind ot Don. He is correct about one thing. I do not hold to the things of God by logic. He does that. I hold to them by faith, he needs to do that.

 

[saturneptune]

SN, you're fighting a losing battle. FAL's mind is made up; no amount of logic will change it.

Remember: he works for, or has worked for, some civilian corporation that has the same limitations that he puts upon the military -- obey your superiors, or don't. In his case, not obeying would have led to firing and joblessness. I don't know his personal situation--he might have actually stood against what he was ordered to do, and been fired for it--but is now receiving government unemployment. Or he didn't, and he's still employed. He could be disabled, sitting in a wheelchair typing his responses with a pencil because of his infirmity; but the result is the same: He knowingly and willingly abides by the same government regulations, rules, and laws in order to continue receiving a paycheck.

Let him rail against the military all he wants, because he's just as guilty of supporting this "evil government" as those he rails against. And that, my friend, is what's known as "hypocrisy."

So don't let your blood pressure get raised because of him; let it go. When he posts something completely false because of his ignorance, don't respond to him; respond to what he posts, in order to educate others and make sure they don't, through their own ignorance, come to believe that what he says is true.

You have a good point. This is the same pattern as he used in the threads about depression. I never really questioned the civilian government while serving, just did what I was told, which is pretty much what I did in my civilian jobs. I suppose if I had quit every job that had some element of being corrupt or evil, I would have never worked anywhere very long. We are all sinners. And to date, I do not know of anyone who is perfect except one exception 2000 years ago. Thanks for the post.

 

[Arbo]

I've been following this thread, and speaking metaphorically, my tongue is getting sore from being bit.

 

[saturneptune]

I've been following this thread, and speaking metaphorically, my tongue is getting sore from being bit.

Dont be shy.

 

[Arbo]

Dont be shy.

It's more of an issue of self control. I don't know if I will be able to speak about bitter armchair generals who seem to take every opportunity to deride, accuse, and give vent to their hatred of those who are and those who were in uniform without using the term horse-hockey.

Well, I guess that answers that.

 

[Don]

So if we live under a king that says murder all the first born males you will obey, correct?

You make a disparaging claim that I need to live by faith; it was the same God you and I both profess to love, worship, and follow that said:
Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt. http://bible.cc/1_samuel/15-3.htmNow go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

Would you have disobeyed Saul?

 

[mandym]

:laugh:Yes you go ahead celebrate murder, slavery, and corruption.

Are you related to Fred Phelps?

 

[freeatlast]

You make a disparaging claim that I need to live by faith; it was the same God you and I both profess to love, worship, and follow that said:
Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt. Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

Would you have disobeyed Saul?

You mean would I have obeyed the Lord who gave the command. Yes. However our military is not under a theocracy and not being lead by men who are directed by God. If they were they would not be celebrating homosexuality, burning bibles and marrying two people of the same gender.

 

[Don]

You mean would I have obeyed the Lord who gave the command. Yes. However our military is not under a theocracy and not being lead by men who are directed by God. If they were they would not be celebrating homosexuality, burning bibles and marrying two people of the same gender.

No, I meant exactly what I wrote. As you'll recall, Saul was given the proclamation, but passed on different orders to his men. Since you weren't in the room when Saul was given the Lord's message, you only know what Saul passed on to you. And let us not forget that everyone knew Saul was chosen by God to lead the people.

So--would you have disobeyed Saul?

 

[freeatlast]

No, I meant exactly what I wrote. As you'll recall, Saul was given the proclamation, but passed on different orders to his men. Since you weren't in the room when Saul was given the Lord's message, you only know what Saul passed on to you. And let us not forget that everyone knew Saul was chosen by God to lead the people.

So--would you have disobeyed Saul?

You are trying to compare apples with oranges as you usually do when you know you are wrong but want to contiune in your rebellion, but to answer your question I would obey because it was a theocracy. However we are not a theocracy and as Christian's left with making decisions based on the spirit, not blindly following men which is what you seem to be suggesting.

 

[Don]

You are trying to compare apples with oranges as you usually do when you know you are wrong but want to contiune in your rebellion, but to answer your question I would obey because it was a theocracy. However we are not a theocracy and as Christian's left with making decisions based on the spirit, not blindly following men which is what you seem to be suggesting.

Hey--you were the one that brought up Pharoah's command to kill all the first-born. And as you're aware--or should be--Egypt equated their leaders with the gods they worshipped, and thus were a theocracy themselves. You used a theocracy example--but you don't want to let me do the same.

So you admit that you would follow the orders of Saul because it was a theocracy. Does that absolve you of the responsibility of disobeying God, since Saul's orders were not what God commanded?

As for "blindly following men"--you misrepresent me. I and others have told you on several occasions on this board that military members are taught to evaluate all orders for their legality, ethics, and morality. Failure to do so makes the military member just as guilty as the one issuing the orders. I even once upon a time gave you a scenario and explained why your answer was incorrect based on legality and morality.

So please--"blindly following men"? Was it blindly following when, as an E-3, the lieutenant asked me if I understood why he had made the decision he did; and I replied that I figured I'd be in long enough to see more stupid decisions? Was it blindly following when I said "no" to my superiors when they asked me to spend $10 million dollars of US taxpayer money on a computer system for the Afghans that I knew they would never use? Was it blindly following when I said "no" to a job position change that would have required me to sustain instead of fixing a financial system that I had already filed multiple complaints against? Was it blindly following when I instituted requirements in a training system that actually caused people to be removed from the training for not meeting standards, whereas the previous ten years had simply been a "graduate 'em and move on to the next batch" mentality?

I personally think I made the right choices in those and other decisions. Please feel free to explain why you might think differently. The net result, whether we agree that they were the right choice or not, is that my superiors thought we should have spent the $10 million; and that I should have taken the position and simply "gone with the flow"; and that I should have stuck with the status quo and simply turned out cannon fodder. For those reasons--which I remind you were my decisions, knowing full well the consequences and repercussions--it was decided that I am no longer promotable.

"Blindly following." To quote Major Haberzatl, my favorite Blackhawk driver: Whatevah.