Defending the trinity doctrine

[The Biblicist]

Did you read my post? I am not discussing Christ alone but the trinity doctrine. I have books on all persons of the Trinity and also on the Trinity directly.

A.T. Robertson says of Romans 1:20 and the word "Godhead"

θειοτης is from θειος (from θεος) quality of θεος and corresponds more to Latin divinitas from divus, divine. In #Col 2:9 Paul uses θεοτης (Latin deitas from deus)

deity, both old words and nowhere else in the N.T. θεοτης is Divine Personality, θειοτης, Divine Nature and properties (Sanday and Headlam).

Paul argues that the "Godhead" or the divine nature and properties is revealed in God's creation.

The Universe is triune in nature - space, matter and time and each of these are triune in nature.

The universe is ONE universe and it ceases to be existent without each of its triune characteristics. No Space, no universe. No matter, no universe, no time, no universe.

The same is true with Space as Space is length, breadth and depth. Remove one and space ceases to exist. We are not speaking of mathmatical definitions of space.

The same is true with time as time is past, present and future. Remove one and time ceases to exist.

The same is true with matter as matter is energy, motion and form. Remove on and matter cease to exist.

 

[Van]

LOL - Quite funny but let's look again at what was quoted:

If the Holy Spirit is a person and also God, and we have only one God, then the Holy Spirit is YhWh. So we have a trinity (Matthew 28:19). Note we do not have three Gods, we have one God that is Spirit and cannot be seen. But He can manifest Himself in the person of the pre-incarnate Word that can be seen (as a burning bush or as the Lord walking in the cool of the day).

But our Spirit God can also manifest Himself as our Helper that listens to our prayers and helps communicate them. The bible portrays each of these "persons" as independently communicating among themselves, expressing will, intellect and and emotion. Hence, the three Persons of our One God. They are the messengers of God in the physical universe. In the garden, did Logos manifest God modeled on relating to God as to a perfect and all powerful Father? I think so. Did the Spirit of Christ inspire men (Patriarchs, Prophets, Judges, and Kings)? Again, yes! Did Logos (the Word) manifest God as a created Man, the Lamb of God in the New Testament? Yes!

You said that "our Spirit God can also manifest Himself as our Helper" - "Helper" being a term for the Holy Spirit. So what I read here is that God the Father can manifest Himself as the Holy Spirit. That is modalism. If that is not what you meant, you communicated poorly and gave that impression and I am sorry to have read it that way. But honestly, the way you wrote it definitely spoke of modalism to me.

So even after I explained your error, you continue to misrepresent and slander me. You say you read where I indicated that the Person (God the Father ) could also manifest Himself as the Holy Spirit. But did I say or suggest that? Nope. Your misread created out of thin air modalism.

How many eternal persons did I say? One or three? Three, so your effort to slander me fails. Next you blame me for poorly communicating. Good Grief! What did Bogart say? First they will knock my teeth out, then kick me for mumbling.

Did you address that the Second Person of the Trinity, God the Son, has manifested Himself as a burning bush, as the Angel of the Lord and as Jesus of Nazareth? Is that modalism? Nope. Yet you in your ignorance claimed it was!!!

You went looking for a flaw and concocted one. I am sick of such behavior.

Notice folks, that the whole discussion of Trinity doctrine has been derailed by this slanderous attack on me. It is a shame.

Here is a part of my post somehow ignored by those eager to find fault: If the Holy Spirit is a person and also God, and we have only one God, then the Holy Spirit is YhWh. So we have a trinity (Matthew 28:19). Note we do not have three Gods, we have one God that is Spirit and cannot be seen. But He can manifest Himself in the person of the pre-incarnate Word that can be seen (as a burning bush or as the Lord walking in the cool of the day).

 

[Revmitchell]

You can be sick of whatever you want, however your posts while unnecessarily wordy were ambiguous at best. There was more than one person who questioned your post on the HG. Some posted some did not.

Sometimes I think you post in a manner so you can claim some victim status.

 

[annsni]

So even after I explained your error, you continue to misrepresent and slander me. You say you read where I indicated that the Person (God the Father ) could also manifest Himself as the Holy Spirit. But did I say or suggest that? Nope. Your misread created out of thin air modalism.

How many eternal persons did I say? One or three? Three, so your effort to slander me fails. Next you blame me for poorly communicating. Good Grief! What did Bogart say? First they will knock my teeth out, then kick me for mumbling.

Did you address that the Second Person of the Trinity, God the Son, has manifested Himself as a burning bush, as the Angel of the Lord and as Jesus of Nazareth? Is that modalism? Nope. Yet you in your ignorance claimed it was!!!

You went looking for a flaw and concocted one. I am sick of such behavior.

Notice folks, that the whole discussion of Trinity doctrine has been derailed by this slanderous attack on me. It is a shame.

Here is a part of my post somehow ignored by those eager to find fault: If the Holy Spirit is a person and also God, and we have only one God, then the Holy Spirit is YhWh. So we have a trinity (Matthew 28:19). Note we do not have three Gods, we have one God that is Spirit and cannot be seen. But He can manifest Himself in the person of the pre-incarnate Word that can be seen (as a burning bush or as the Lord walking in the cool of the day).

Completely agree. I read it as a modalistic statement, Van. That's all.

Your overall explanation demonstrates you are not a believer in modalism. However, your wording when you say:

But our Spirit God can also manifest Himself as our Helper that listens to our prayers and helps communicate them.


There is no "can" here. The Spirit of God always exists in that capacity rather than one who merely "can" manifest himself in that capacity.

However, your overall context shows you are clearly not a believer in modalism but a believer in the Trinity.

In your defense, it is extremely difficult to convey a properly worded explanation of the Trinity without messing up at some minor points.

It wasn't just me. I don't quite know why you are picking on me when others saw the same thing I did.

 

[evangelist6589]

So even after I explained your error, you continue to misrepresent and slander me. You say you read where I indicated that the Person (God the Father ) could also manifest Himself as the Holy Spirit. But did I say or suggest that? Nope. Your misread created out of thin air modalism.

How many eternal persons did I say? One or three? Three, so your effort to slander me fails. Next you blame me for poorly communicating. Good Grief! What did Bogart say? First they will knock my teeth out, then kick me for mumbling.

Did you address that the Second Person of the Trinity, God the Son, has manifested Himself as a burning bush, as the Angel of the Lord and as Jesus of Nazareth? Is that modalism? Nope. Yet you in your ignorance claimed it was!!!

You went looking for a flaw and concocted one. I am sick of such behavior.

Notice folks, that the whole discussion of Trinity doctrine has been derailed by this slanderous attack on me. It is a shame.

Here is a part of my post somehow ignored by those eager to find fault: If the Holy Spirit is a person and also God, and we have only one God, then the Holy Spirit is YhWh. So we have a trinity (Matthew 28:19). Note we do not have three Gods, we have one God that is Spirit and cannot be seen. But He can manifest Himself in the person of the pre-incarnate Word that can be seen (as a burning bush or as the Lord walking in the cool of the day).

Van I think you need some quality time with a Rabbit!

Anyways Van your post was very wordy and seemed to promote a heresy, which appears you do not affirm. Point taken, so no reason to get so defensive. If you still insist on getting defensive I have an assignment for you.

1. Go to the local zoo, petshop, or outside (depends where you live)
2. Find a rabbit and spend time with it.
3. Come back to this board.

 

[blessedwife318]

Evan you are most welcome for the book suggestions. I was once again overwhelmed at you thanks and appreciation.

 

[Van]

I see the usual group of fault finding bashers have circled the wagons, with not one of them presenting anything on topic.

Returning to topic, and as a reminder, that is the our Eternal Trinity Spirit God, I was presenting how, based on evidence from scripture, He manifests Himself in our physical universe.

Now what are the ways God the Father manifests Himself? Please give scriptural references. For example a voice from heaven says "You are by Beloved Son, in You I am well pleased." (Luke 3:23)

What are the ways God the Son manifests Himself? Please give scriptural references.

And what are the ways God the Holy Spirit manifests Himself. Please give scriptural references.

Please provide examples where intellect, will and emotion are displayed for each person, with references?

Tick tock

 

[Van]

I see I missed one errant assertion, that the Eternal Trinity Yahweh does not manifest Himself as the Holy Spirit in different ways. So is the Helper a different manifestation, from the "dove" that descended upon Jesus when He was baptized?

And here is a question for all your know it all folks, is the Spirit of Christ a manifestation of Logos/Word/God the Son, or the third Person of the Trinity, God the Holy Spirit?

Are you ready for spiritual meat, or is it too wordy?

 

[PreachTony]

I see the usual group of fault finding bashers have circled the wagons, with not one of them presenting anything on topic.

You presented a somewhat poorly worded response that several of us have read as promoting modalism. This is not some vast conspiracy on the part of myself, blessedwife, Rev, and the Bib to slander you. We sought clarification. You took that as us attacking you. If you cannot separate a request for clarification from an attack on character you probably shouldn't be on a debate board.

So even after I explained your error, you continue to misrepresent and slander me. You say you read where I indicated that the Person (God the Father ) could also manifest Himself as the Holy Spirit. But did I say or suggest that? Nope. Your misread created out of thin air modalism.

No one created modalism out of thin air. You wrote that "our Spirit God can also manifest Himself as our Helper." Sure, you went on to claim three eternal persons in the Godhead, but your written response, to someone on the outside, seemed to endorse a modalistic view. So we sought clarification. You accuse us of misreading you, but you've misread us as well.

How many eternal persons did I say? One or three? Three, so your effort to slander me fails. Next you blame me for poorly communicating. Good Grief! What did Bogart say? First they will knock my teeth out, then kick me for mumbling.

Again, there is no effort to slander you. Stop playing the victim for a few minutes and you'll see that we brought up simple questions and concerns about a post that was, at best, vaguely worded. You might be endorsing the Trinitarian Godhead, and good for you if you are. But your own words contained both views, when looked at by someone other than yourself who did not know your intent upon writing.

Did you address that the Second Person of the Trinity, God the Son, has manifested Himself as a burning bush, as the Angel of the Lord and as Jesus of Nazareth? Is that modalism? Nope. Yet you in your ignorance claimed it was!!!

Maybe I'm behind the times here, but what is your scriptural proof that the burning bush was God the Son?

You went looking for a flaw and concocted one. I am sick of such behavior.

Notice folks, that the whole discussion of Trinity doctrine has been derailed by this slanderous attack on me. It is a shame.

Well, you figured us out, Van. The other night Rev, Bib, blessedwife, and I all met at the local Waffle House to discuss how we could tear you down. C'mon, man. You know we're not outright attacking and slandering you.

Here is a part of my post somehow ignored by those eager to find fault: If the Holy Spirit is a person and also God, and we have only one God, then the Holy Spirit is YhWh. So we have a trinity (Matthew 28:19). Note we do not have three Gods, we have one God that is Spirit and cannot be seen. But He can manifest Himself in the person of the pre-incarnate Word that can be seen (as a burning bush or as the Lord walking in the cool of the day).

Anytime you talk about God manifesting Himself in one form or another you have to tread lightly, as that opened the door to modalism, partialism, and other doctrines that are considered heretical. Note, I am not calling you a heretic. I don't believe you are. I'm merely cautioning you to be careful about the terms you employ when discussing the Godhead. It's a lesson we should all observe.

 

[Van]

Hi Preachtony, please reread my post #15. I clarified by view and did not attack anyone except for the person who slandered me.

You wrote that "our Spirit God can also manifest Himself as our Helper." Sure, you went on to claim three eternal persons in the Godhead, but your written response, to someone on the outside, seemed to endorse a modalistic view.

No, no no it does not. Our Spirit God is the Trinity Yahweh. How would I be expected for you and the others to not know that!!!!! What you claim you could not grasp is I was addressing how our Triune God manifests Himself in the physical universe. Why should I assume such a limited capability on your part.

Yes, you (Preachtony) brought up a simply question which I answered. Annsni on the other hand slandered me!

Now you Preachtony suggest I might not be supporting the Trinity Godhead!! Your behavior after I have explained my view six ways from sunday shows malice!

Ah, an on topic question, what proof is there the burning bush was the second person of the Trinity. I will address that later.

Next you deny that asserting my view was modalism is not an attack. Good Grief. There is a difference between asking a question, i.e. are you teaching Modalism, and asserting I was teaching a well know heresy.

And Preachtony, I am not calling you a slanderer, but you need to be careful not to insinuate others are heretics.

Now to return to topic, does the Triune Spirit God Yahweh manifest Himself as the Father, Son and Holy Spirit? Yes, He reveals Himself in scripture in several different ways.

Turning now to the Second Person of the Trinity, God the Son, the Word, how did He appear in scripture before His birth as Jesus in the NT?

1) Jesus said before Abraham was, I AM. What did the burning bush say He was? I AM.

2) If no one has seen the Father, then who was walking in the garden in the cool of the day? God the Son manifested as a theophany. Was God the Son present, again manifested as a theophany in Genesis 18 as one of the three visiting Abraham?

I could go on, but others who study God's word might want to contribute.

 

[Van]

Who do we think is the Spirit of Christ. Are we saying it is the spirit of the Second Person of the Trinity, or the third person, the Holy Spirit?

I do not expect an answer because that would require some thought, prayer, study and meditation. But just for Grins, please review Romans 8:9, 2 Corinthians 3:18, Philippians 1:19, and 1 Peter 1:11.

My answer is these all reference the third person of the Trinity, the Holy Spirit. The idea is that the Holy Spirit is acting on behalf of the Second Person of the Trinity.

 

[annsni]

Boy, someone got up on the wrong side of the bed. What was quoted was modalism. However I see in the larger post of which the quote was only a part of, you seemed to not be promoting modalism although what was quoted definitely had that bent and I was not the only one who saw it.

"Slander"? Not so much. Addressing what I saw quoted as modalism? Yes, I did that.

But I apologized for misreading your post and you have not forgiven me. Why is that?

 

[Iconoclast]

the confusion is because all of you for posting against van I think that he is speaking of modalism all of the time when then speaks of modalism some of the time but you're making it like he does it all of the time.lol

the issue could be is modalism a heresy all of the time or is it a heresy only some of the time

 

[Tom Bryant]

back to original poster question.

I am not sure that approaching him with the Bible is going to convince him. My guess is that he doesn't believe the Bible to be God's Word. So approaching him in that way may seem to him of no import.

I thought you were saying that approaching people with the law was the way to go. If he's not a believer and from what you've said he doesn't seem to be, would approaching him as an unsaved person be the way to go.

 

[evangelist6589]

back to original poster question.

I am not sure that approaching him with the Bible is going to convince him. My guess is that he doesn't believe the Bible to be God's Word. So approaching him in that way may seem to him of no import.

I thought you were saying that approaching people with the law was the way to go. If he's not a believer and from what you've said he doesn't seem to be, would approaching him as an unsaved person be the way to go.

It would be and it will be my plan, although he is a moral person and like a Catholic will no doubt admit to having broken the ten commandments.

 

[Van]

Boy, someone got up on the wrong side of the bed. What was quoted was modalism. However I see in the larger post of which the quote was only a part of, you seemed to not be promoting modalism although what was quoted definitely had that bent and I was not the only one who saw it.

"Slander"? Not so much. Addressing what I saw quoted as modalism? Yes, I did that.

But I apologized for misreading your post and you have not forgiven me. Why is that?

Hi Ann, I did not see where you apologized for misreading my post. Which post was that?

EDIT:

I found this -

You said that "our Spirit God can also manifest Himself as our Helper" - "Helper" being a term for the Holy Spirit. So what I read here is that God the Father can manifest Himself as the Holy Spirit. That is modalism. If that is not what you meant, you communicated poorly and gave that impression and I am sorry to have read it that way. But honestly, the way you wrote it definitely spoke of modalism to me.

That sounds like "I am sorry Van caused me to read it as modalism." Well... I am sorry you caused this thread to be derailed in petty bickering over charges of heresy. Why assume guilt, why not just ask a question and allow a poster to clarify his or her position? It is very hard to actually discuss theology, in this case the doctrine of the Trinity, if like Iconoclast's post, the only objective is disparage under the cover of humor.

If we are to discuss the Trinity, we need to be able to answer this question, which person of the Trinity is in view in this verse or that verse, for example where the Spirit of Christ is mentioned. Unless we understand how God has revealed Himself in Scripture, we cannot defend the Trinity.

 

[annsni]

LOL - Quite funny but let's look again at what was quoted:

If the Holy Spirit is a person and also God, and we have only one God, then the Holy Spirit is YhWh. So we have a trinity (Matthew 28:19). Note we do not have three Gods, we have one God that is Spirit and cannot be seen. But He can manifest Himself in the person of the pre-incarnate Word that can be seen (as a burning bush or as the Lord walking in the cool of the day).

But our Spirit God can also manifest Himself as our Helper that listens to our prayers and helps communicate them. The bible portrays each of these "persons" as independently communicating among themselves, expressing will, intellect and and emotion. Hence, the three Persons of our One God. They are the messengers of God in the physical universe. In the garden, did Logos manifest God modeled on relating to God as to a perfect and all powerful Father? I think so. Did the Spirit of Christ inspire men (Patriarchs, Prophets, Judges, and Kings)? Again, yes! Did Logos (the Word) manifest God as a created Man, the Lamb of God in the New Testament? Yes!

You said that "our Spirit God can also manifest Himself as our Helper" - "Helper" being a term for the Holy Spirit. So what I read here is that God the Father can manifest Himself as the Holy Spirit. That is modalism. If that is not what you meant, you communicated poorly and gave that impression and I am sorry to have read it that way. But honestly, the way you wrote it definitely spoke of modalism to me.

Here is what I wrote.

 

[Van]

Hi Ann, I quoted what you wrote in post #36.

Returning once again to topic, the Trinity Doctrine, lets review.

1) Each Person of the Trinity is eternal, and not created. In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.

2) Usually a rejection of the Trinity is simply a cloaked attempt to attack the deity of Christ or the Personhood of the Holy Spirit.

3) Each Person of the Trinity is revealed in scripture as possessing will, intellect and emotion, demonstrating the characteristics of personhood.

4) Each Person of the Trinity can manifest Himself in different ways, i.e. as a dove, or burning bush, or pillar of a cloud (Exodus 13:21).

5) Our Eternal Trinity God is Spirit, and cannot actually be pictured in our minds, Luke 24:39 and Exodus 20:4-5.

Study 2 Corinthians 13:14 and tell us if this verse teaches Trinity doctrine?

 

[Tom Bryant]

It would be and it will be my plan, although he is a moral person and like a Catholic will no doubt admit to having broken the ten commandments.

It just didn't seem to be your approach when you wrote about it initially.

 

[The Biblicist]

Who do we think is the Spirit of Christ. Are we saying it is the spirit of the Second Person of the Trinity, or the third person, the Holy Spirit?

I do not expect an answer because that would require some thought, prayer, study and meditation. But just for Grins, please review Romans 8:9, 2 Corinthians 3:18, Philippians 1:19, and 1 Peter 1:11.

My answer is these all reference the third person of the Trinity, the Holy Spirit. The idea is that the Holy Spirit is acting on behalf of the Second Person of the Trinity.

Most likely the "Spirit of Christ" is the Spirit which was sent by Christ to be his replacement or "another comforter" - the Third Person of the Trinity.