Defending the truth against the primary so called "proof texts" against Calvinism

[jbh28]

You have been shown, you refuse to accept this because it overthrows your doctrine.

I guess it is just some remarkable coincidence that these two accounts speak of foreknowledge, faith, and election all together. If you believe that, I have a bridge in Brooklyn I will sell you for cheap. :laugh:

If God chooses who will be saved, He obviously knows who will believe in the future.

And you know, it doesn't really matter what I would tell you God's foreknowledge is, you would reject anything foreseen in man, because that would overthrow unconditional election. You must believe it is based on some secret God is keeping from all of us, because that is what your doctrine teaches. It cannot be based on any foreknowledge of man whatsoever.

My teaching comes from the Bible. Your ad hominems you have given here demonstrate that you are out of answers. I have asked with nothing in return for a passage that says that God based his election on foreknowledge of faith. All you did is show that God knew who would believe(something that I have never denied) and that he chose us(something I also believe). What you lack is that it is based on that. Just seeing them together doesn't mean that as Christ would obviously know who would believe if he elected them.

I don't quite understand unconditional election as Calvinism understands it. If this foreknowledge is some big secret, then why would God mention it in 1 Peter 1:2? Boy, if I wanted to keep something secret, I would not mention it at all. So this doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.

What do you mean "a secret." What is the secret you are referring to here that God hasn't revealed?

 

[Skandelon]

When have you found me lacking in answers?

I found you lacking answers for my post #111, remember when you started accusing me of wanting to debate on a debate board and then deemed me unworthy of response because of these apparently secret and shady motives?

Why are you responding to all these others posters who are clearly wanting to debate you? I wonder? Hmmmmm

 

[Iconoclast]

Winman,
As long as you continually set aside God's word like you do here;You will never come to truth.

Quote:
It never says what He foreknew but whom He foreknew. The word for prescience is a different word altogether. In almost every instance the word "know" is used in connection with God in the Scriptures it is used in the same way as when Adam knew his wife, in an intimate loving union.


I don't know what you are trying to say here, God knows all about every person, he knows the very number of the hairs of our head (Matt 10:30). If someone believes he knows it, if they believe not he knows it.

[/QUO
I don't know what you are trying to say here,

yes you do.You know exactly what he is trying to say,and you know to concede the point you will no longer be able to redefine the verses as you are want to do.

If anyone reads romans 8:29....they know only the elect are foreknown...not about God knowing about all men
all men are are not conformed to the Son,justified, glorified

so most all of what you are posting is vain because you start from a flawed premise.

The scriptures nowhere say Adam's sin is imputed to us

post 146 answers your false claim,showing all humans sinned in Adam

 

[Iconoclast]

Please show me one place in the Scriptures that the word foreknowledge is used in connection with what He foreknew. It never says what He foreknew but whom He foreknew. The word for prescience is a different word altogether. In almost every instance the word "know" is used in connection with God in the Scriptures it is used in the same way as when Adam knew his wife, in an intimate loving union. When the Lord tells those folks in Matt. 7:23 that He never knew them it is obvious that He knew all about them. He is simply saying that He never had an intimate union with them. Therefore predestination and election are not based on prescience but in an eternal covenant relationship that is before the foundation of the world. Paul proves this in Rom. 5: 12-21. He is showing the covenant headship of Adam and Christ. God deals with all men in only two men: Adam or Christ. You are either in Adam and under the curse or in Christ and under grace and mercy. He uses the same argument in 1Cor. 15:21-22, 45. In Rom. he uses the representative headship of Adam and Christ to show righteousness by imputation and in 1Cor. resurrection according to representative headship. If Adam's sin isn't imputed to us then Christ's righteousness can't be.

BTW, Rom. 5:14 is talking about why infants die.

Ron,
Good post.Most of us understand and agree with these scriptures and what they teach. Some totally mis-understand romans 5 and struggle where they need not struggle.You might see this soon.:laugh:

 

[Winman]

Winman,
As long as you continually set aside God's word like you do here;You will never come to truth.
yes you do.You know exactly what he is trying to say,and you know to concede the point you will no longer be able to redefine the verses as you are want to do.

If anyone reads romans 8:29....they know only the elect are foreknown...not about God knowing about all men
all men are are not conformed to the Son,justified, glorified

so most all of what you are posting is vain because you start from a flawed premise.

I know what he is saying, but it doesn't make a whole lot of sense. How can you know someone and not know what they do? I barely know you, but what I do know of you I know by what you have done here at this forum.

He compared it to the relationship with your wife. Do you know your wife and not know the things she does?

In fact, how is it possible to really know someone unless you know what they do? And isn't it true that the better you know someone is based on your knowledge of what they do?

So, you can't say God knew someone in some sort of personal sense like a husband knows his wife, and not know what they do. That is absurd.

I mean, what did Jesus say?

Matt 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

So, this explanation is completely illogical and nonsensical to say the least.

 

[jbh28]

I know what he is saying, but it doesn't make a whole lot of sense. How can you know someone and not know what they do?

He compared it to the relationship with your wife. Do you know your wife and not know the things she does?

In fact, how is it possible to really know someone unless you know what they do? And isn't it true that the better you know someone is based on your knowledge of what they do?

So, you can't say God knew someone in some sort of personal sense like a husband knows his wife, and not know what they do. That is absurd.

I mean, what did Jesus say?

Matt 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

So, this explanation is completely illogical and nonsensical to say the least.

please name the one person in this discussion that has ever denied that there are things in the future that God doesn't know. I have never said, nor anyone else here in this discussion that God doesn't know who will believe.

 

[Iconoclast]

I know what he is saying, but it doesn't make a whole lot of sense. How can you know someone and not know what they do?

He compared it to the relationship with your wife. Do you know your wife and not know the things she does?

In fact, how is it possible to really know someone unless you know what they do? And isn't it true that the better you know someone is based on your knowledge of what they do?

So, you can't say God knew someone in some sort of personal sense like a husband knows his wife, and not know what they do. That is absurd.

I mean, what did Jesus say?

Matt 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

So, this explanation is completely illogical and nonsensical to say the least.

When and WHOM [the persons] God foreknows someone[in a covenant relationship] he knows what they will do because he has ordained that he is going to save them and conform them to the image of His Son.
That is what those sinners who God foreknows have been ordained too.They and they alone are predestined to be conformed to the Image of the Son.

But God elects,and foreknows a multitude of sinners [the Spirit quickens them] and by Spirit Baptism] places them IN Christ.
These and these alone are the ones who "come" "believe" "trust" in Jesus as Lord and Saviour when the Spirit regenerates them giving life from the dead.

 

[Winman]

When and WHOM [the persons] God foreknows someone[in a covenant relationship] he knows what they will do because he has ordained that he is going to save them and conform them to the image of His Son.
That is what those sinners who God foreknows have been ordained too.They and they alone are predestined to be conformed to the Image of the Son.

But God elects,and foreknows a multitude of sinners [the Spirit quickens them] and by Spirit Baptism] places them IN Christ.
These and these alone are the ones who "come" "believe" "trust" in Jesus as Lord and Saviour when the Spirit regenerates them giving life from the dead.

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

You contradict scripture. Jesus does not "know" (in a personal relationship) unbelievers. That is what Jesus meant when he said "I never knew you" (Mat 7:23).

Only believers have been predestinated to be conformed to the image of his son. A sinner is not a brethren of Christ.

I said I agree that Jesus knows a believer on a personal basis. But Jesus also has a knowledge of unbelievers, although not in a personal sense. This was the one thing I agreed with in his post, go back and see for yourself.

But to say you can know someone on a personal level and not know what they do is ridiculous.

You seem to argue that Jesus can have a personal relationship with someone who does not have faith in him. That is ridiculous as well. Therefore, for Jesus to know someone on a personal basis, that person must have faith in Christ.

Jesus can never "know" anyone in a personal sense until they first believe.

 

[Winman]

My teaching comes from the Bible. Your ad hominems you have given here demonstrate that you are out of answers. I have asked with nothing in return for a passage that says that God based his election on foreknowledge of faith. All you did is show that God knew who would believe(something that I have never denied) and that he chose us(something I also believe). What you lack is that it is based on that. Just seeing them together doesn't mean that as Christ wo uld obviously know who would believe if he elected them.

You are the one who cannot provide an answer. If I asked you right now what the foreknowledge of God is in 1 Peter 1:2, you cannot give an answer other to say it is some secret (which is not an answer).

I on the other hand have shown scripture that demonstrates God's foreknowledge of who will believe and who will not. And I showed two passages that not only demonstrated this, but also spoke of election.

It's not me that has no answers, it is you.

 

[jbh28]

You are the one who cannot provide an answer. If I asked you right now what the foreknowledge of God is in 1 Peter 1:2, you cannot give an answer other to say it is some secret (which is not an answer).

I on the other hand have shown scripture that demonstrates God's foreknowledge of who will believe and who will not. And I showed two passages that not only demonstrated this, but also spoke of election.

I asked for a passage that says that God chose us based on his foreknowledge of faith, you have supplied none. You instead resorted to ad hominems (You say I refuse to accept the Bible because it is against my theology.) Don't turn this around. I asked you to prove conditional election as you were the one that brought i up.

Yes, you did shoe Scripture that God has foreknowledge of those who will believe and who will not. Did I deny that? No, I most certainly did not. You showed to passages, yep. And neither said that the foreknowledge of those that believe(which He has) is the basis of his election. Do you understand what I'm asking? I'm not asking if God knows who will be saved or not, but what is the basis of his election. Please show us the passages that say it's faith. You say it's faith, please back that up with Scripture.

It's not me that has no answers, it is you.

You were the one asked the question.

 

[Winman]

I will show you one more time and try to make it simple.

John 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

You agree here that this verse shows Jesus had foreknowledge of who would believe and who would believe not. Good, because that is exactly what it shows.

John 13:18 I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.
19 Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am he.

Now, we have already established that Jesus knew from the beginning (before the foundation of the world) who would believe. Now we have Jesus telling his disciples that he "knows" who he has chosen. Did he know that eleven were believers from the beginning? Yes!

You might argue that he chose Judas too, who is not a believer. That is true, but Judas was chosen because Jesus knew from the beginning that Judas would betray him (John 6:64 & John 13:18).

But all this can be more simply shown by going back to John 6.

John 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

Jesus said he had chosen the twelve disciples, but one was a devil. What does that tell you about that person? He was an unbeliever.

But what does that tell you about the other eleven? It tells you they were believers. Otherwise they would have been devils too.

But here it is plainly stated that Judas was chosen because he was the one that should betray Jesus and fulfill the OT scripture.

So, this shows eleven where chosen because they were believers, and one was chosen because he was an unbeliever to fulfill prophecy.

 

[Iconoclast]

Winman,
you are making it to easy;

Jesus can never "know" anyone in a personal sense until they first believe.

really?how about this;

5Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

As usual you are unable to understand what I posted to you...sorry i am trying to help, but you are unable to welcome it.
You said this also

Jesus does not "know" (in a personal relationship) unbelievers

At one time all christians were unbelievers.But God did love and Know us even while we were dead in sin...that is what this verse actually means;

8But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. 11And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

Winman.....do not twist it ,but instead read it.....you see in verse 9;
9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Only the elect who are foreknown are justifed by the blood[romans [;29-30]....connect the dots.

 

[jbh28]

I will show you one more time and try to make it simple.

Please don't condescend to me.

John 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

You agree here that this verse shows Jesus had foreknowledge of who would believe and who would believe not. Good, because that is exactly what it shows.

Correct
Now you jump 7 chapters ahead to a different context...

John 13:18 I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.
19 Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am he.

Now, we have already established that Jesus knew from the beginning (before the foundation of the world) who would believe.

yes

Now we have Jesus telling his disciples that he "knows" who he has chosen.

Correct too

Did he know that eleven were believers from the beginning? Yes!

Correct as well.

You might argue that he chose Judas too, who is not a believer. That is true, but Judas was chosen because Jesus knew from the beginning that Judas would betray him (John 6:64 & John 13:18).

Correct, Judas was chosen to be an apostle, not chosen for salvation

But all this can be more simply shown by going back to John 6.

John 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

Jesus said he had chosen the twelve disciples, but one was a devil. What does that tell you about that person? He was an unbeliever.

But what does that tell you about the other eleven? It tells you they were believers. Otherwise they would have been devils too.

But here it is plainly stated that Judas was chosen because he was the one that should betray Jesus and fulfill the OT scripture.

So, this shows eleven where chosen because they were believers,

UM, nope. Here lies your error. It doesn't say that. It doesn't even imply that. Here, Jesus is speaking about choosing for being an apostle.

and one was chosen because he was an unbeliever to fulfill prophecy.

Doesn't say that either. However, even if it did, this is not about election of Salvation as Judas wasn't chosen to be saved.

You need to stop forcing your theology into the text. You are saying that it says something that it doesn't. You said that the "eleven were chosen because they were believers" yet the Bible never says that Jesus chose them because they were believers.

 

[Winman]

Winman,
you are making it to easy;

really?how about this;

5Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Who is this speaking of? Jeremiah, a believer. And because God in his foreknowledge knew Jeremiah would believe, he could know him personally.

And by the way, this verse throws a monkey wrench in your doctrine of Total Depravity that all men are born sinners. It also shows that God is the one who forms us in the womb, so if your doctrine is true, God creates evil.

At one time all christians were unbelievers.But God did love and Know us even while we were dead in sin...that is what this verse actually means;

I agree with this, except there were exceptions like Jeremiah and John the Baptist.

The problem is that you must deny God's foreknowledge of who will believe. If you accept that God exists from the beginning, in the present, and at the end, then you can understand how God can know someone before they are born.

Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

This verse says Jesus is the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. He exists in the present (which is), the past (which was) and the future (which is to come).

If the world lasts a thousand more years, and a man hears the gospel and believes in Jesus, Jesus knows that man RIGHT NOW, because he exists in the present, past, and future.

Winman.....do not twist it ,but instead read it.....you see in verse 9;
9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Only the elect who are foreknown are justifed by the blood[romans [;29-30]....connect the dots.

I will give you the answer I just gave you. Yes, when Paul says "being now", he is speaking of the present. He is speaking of someone who has been justified in real time. I understand that.

But that does not prevent God from knowing that person before the foundation of the world, because God exists outside time, but he also exists in all time, the present, the past, and the future. Therefore he knows all things that will ever happen from the beginning.

 

[Winman]

UM, nope. Here lies your error. It doesn't say that. It doesn't even imply that. Here, Jesus is speaking about choosing for being an apostle.

Why in the world would Jesus choose an unbeliever to be an apostle to spread the gospel and also be prophets who wrote scripture under inspiration?

The only reason it makes sense that he chose Judas as an unbeliever is for the very reason shown in scripture, that he would fulfill the OT prophecy and betray Jesus.

Jesus chose his apostles (except Judas) because he knew they would believe. Nobody would choose a known enemy or traitor to lead his army would they? This is what Jesus meant when he said a house divided against itself cannot stand. But speaking of the church he said the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

 

[Iconoclast]

And because God in his foreknowledge knew Jeremiah would believe, he could know him personally.

[QUOTEWho is this speaking of? Jeremiah, a believer][/QUOTE]

Again...your wrong view of foreknowledge. You confuse it with omniscience.
You ignore that at conception Jeremiah was a sinner, yet The text says God
ORDAINED him to be a prophet to the nations.
God being sovereign is able to save persons in the womb.

the god you describe has to wait and see what man will or will not believe.
The God of the bible ordains what will be.

When you keep making statements like this;

so if your doctrine is true, God creates evil.

I find this thinking disturbing and non christian. Any real christian does not ascribe any evil or possibility of evil in God. Satan suggested to Eve that God had an evil motive. Christians do not even consider this.
You try to get by with it by saying....."if your doctrine is true" well it is,so that puts you in the place of those who believe God's doctrine is evil.
You do not want to say that,do you?

If you do not get Romans 5 correct,and do not see what foreknowledge is, you will not come to truth on this.You are explaining away all of the verses that can help you.

 

[jbh28]

Why in the world would Jesus choose an unbeliever to be an apostle to spread the gospel and also be prophets who wrote scripture under inspiration?

The only reason it makes sense that he chose Judas as an unbeliever is for the very reason shown in scripture, that he would fulfill the OT prophecy and betray Jesus.

Jesus chose his apostles (except Judas) because he knew they would believe. Nobody would choose a known enemy or traitor to lead his army would they?

You have gotten off subject. We were discussing the basis of election to salvation, not election of the twelve.

This is what Jesus meant when he said a house divided against itself cannot stand. But speaking of the church he said the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

True

 

[Winman]

Who is this speaking of? Jeremiah, a believer

Again...your wrong view of foreknowledge. You confuse it with omniscience.
You ignore that at conception Jeremiah was a sinner, yet The text says God
ORDAINED him to be a prophet to the nations.
God being sovereign is able to save persons in the womb.

the god you describe has to wait and see what man will or will not believe.
The God of the bible ordains what will be.

When you keep making statements like this;


I find this thinking disturbing and non christian. Any real christian does not ascribe any evil or possibility of evil in God. Satan suggested to Eve that God had an evil motive. Christians do not even consider this.
You try to get by with it by saying....."if your doctrine is true" well it is,so that puts you in the place of those who believe God's doctrine is evil.
You do not want to say that,do you?

If you do not get Romans 5 correct,and do not see what foreknowledge is, you will not come to truth on this.You are explaining away all of the verses that can help you.

Give me a break, it is Calvinism that teaches children are born evil. But the very verse you quoted shows it is God that forms us in the womb, therefore it is your doctrine that teaches God creates evil.

And I don't know exactly when Jeremiah believed, but I do know John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Spirit in his mother's womb. There is no such thing as a sinner who is filled with the Holy Spirit.

You Calvinists are something else, you see literally hundreds of scriptures that refutes your doctrine, yet you hold to the teachings of a 27 year old novice who followed the heretical and superstitious teachings of a young novice Catholic instead of the scriptures.

 

[Rippon]

You Calvinists are something else, you see literally hundreds of scriptures that refutes your doctrine, yet you hold to the teachings of a 27 year old novice who followed the heretical and superstitious teachings of a young novice Catholic instead of the scriptures.

You are attempting to say that John Calvin followed the teachings of Martin Luther. Well,he did agree with much of what Martin Luther taught,but Calvin was his own man. He didn't walk in lock-step with him on a number of things. That's why many Christians in Germany during Martin Luther's time did not go along with the teachings of Geneva's Christians. They were two different camps --the Lutherans (called so later) and the Reformed.

And where do you get off saying Martin Luther was a heretic and followed superstitions?
Luther was considered a heretic by the Roman Catholics. Do you have sympathy with Rome?

 

[Iconoclast]

Again you fail to see Romans 5 as truth, you cannot answer the verses offered, you divert the discussion, and blame Calvin for your inability to welcome the word. What I posted stands.

it is Calvinism that teaches children are born evil

No....the scriptures teach it. If Calvin read his bible and believed what it said it should be no surprise.

It is you denying the word-
5Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me

and you never answered what was posted on romans 5:12 all sinned in adam
because you have no answer to truth.

then you say this???

There is no such thing as a sinner who is filled with the Holy Spirit.

Every christian is a sinner , who is quickened and filled with the Spirit.If you do not understand or believe this you need to deal with Jesus about what salvation is. All sheep understand this! Do you claim to believe in the God of the bible? Seriously.....How do you think sinners get saved??
This might just be the heart of the issue. There can be no further progress unless you come to grips with this truth.Jesus saves sinners .
Maybe I can see why you do not welcome the verses that are offered to you.