Defending the truth against the primary so called "proof texts" against Calvinism

[Osage Bluestem]

The Primary Proof Texts Used Against Calvinism

The Big Three (Matthew 23:37, 1 Timothy 2:4, 2 Peter 3:9)

Those who oppose Calvinism appeal repeatedly to these three proof texts. We are called upon to take these verses in their "plain meaning" and then are left to accept their subjective assertion as to what the plain meaning is. If we really believe the Bible is our source of authority, it is crucial that both sides give their exegesis of the texts at issue. I'll be drawing from the exegesis offered by James White in his book The Potter's Freedom. For a more thorough treatment of these topics, please consider picking up a copy of the book.


1The Potter's Freedom, James R. White, Calvary Press Publishing, 2000 p. 230.

2To claim to believe in predestination and election and then turn around and say it is based on God "looking down the corridors of time to see who would freely choose him" is to define predestination and election out of existence. How is this different from no predestination at all? Read Ephesians 1, Romans 8 and 9, and John 6 for clear revelation of God's sovereignty in election.

Link: http://www.objectivegospel.org/reformed/BigThree.shtml

 

[Jerome]

Spurgeon, on the shenanigans some Calvinism enthusiasts undertake when the pesky Scriptures just don't line up with their "grand theory":

[I Tim. 2:4]

"What then? Shall we try to put another meaning into the text than that which it fairly bears? I trow not. You must, most of you, be acquainted with the general method in which our older Calvinistic friends deal with this text. "All men," say they, —"that is, some men": as if the Holy Ghost could not have said "some men" if he had meant some men. "All men," say they; "that is, some of all sorts of men": as if the Lord could not have said "all sorts of men" if he had meant that. The Holy Ghost by the apostle has written "all men," and unquestionably he means all men. I know how to get rid of the force of the "alls" according to that critical method which some time ago was very current, but I do not see how it can be applied here with due regard to truth. I was reading just now the exposition of a very able doctor who explains the text so as to explain it away; he applies grammatical gunpowder to it, and explodes it by way of expounding it. I thought when I read his exposition that it would have been a very capital comment upon the text if it had read, "Who will not have all men to be saved, nor come to a knowledge of the truth." Had such been the inspired language every remark of the learned doctor would have been exactly in keeping, but as it happens to say, "Who will have all men to be saved," his observations are more than a little out of place. My love of consistency with my own doctrinal views is not great enough to allow me knowingly to alter a single text of Scripture. I have great respect for orthodoxy, but my reverence for inspiration is far greater. I would sooner a hundred times over appear to be inconsistent with myself than be inconsistent with the word of God. I never thought it to be any very great crime to seem to be inconsistent with myself, for who am I that I should everlastingly be consistent? But I do think it a great crime to be so inconsistent with the word of God that I should want to lop away a bough or even a twig from so much as a single tree of the forest of Scripture. God forbid that I should cut or shape, even in the least degree, any divine expression. So runs the text, and so we must read it, "God our Saviour; who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."" —"Salvation By Knowing the Truth"

 

[Osage Bluestem]

Here is what CH Spurgeon said about Calvinism in his work "A Defense of Calvinism"

[T]here is no such thing as preaching Christ and Him crucified, unless we preach what nowadays is called Calvinism. It is a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else.

Link: http://www.banneroftruth.org/pages/articles/article_detail.php?41

 

[Osage Bluestem]

From the OP article:

In 1 Timothy 2, is there any reason to see Paul as talking about kinds or categories of people? Let's look at the context.

ESV1 Timothy 2:1-4 First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people, 2 for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. 3 This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Now we need to ask ourselves, is Paul urging Timothy to pray for every single person in the world? Every single person in the city of Ephesus? Note what Paul says next, this is the key: "for kings and all who are in high positions." Persecuted Christians here are urged to include kings and high officials (their chief persecutors) in their prayers--a category of people to be included rather than excluded.

More disturbing is the very idea that Jesus tries and fails to save. As James White states in a chapter titled "The Perfect Work of Calvary" in The Potter's Freedom:

In its simplest terms the Reformed belief is this: Christ's death saves sinners. It does not make the salvation of sinners a mere possibility. It does not provide a theoretical atonement. It requires no additions, whether they be the meritorious works of me or the autonomous act of faith flowing from a "free will." Christ's death saves every single person that it was intended to save.1

Can you read Jesus' words in John 6 and come to any other conclusion? Where is there room for failure?

ESVJohn 6:37-40 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day."

To sum up, in 1 Timothy 2:1-4 we have Paul encouraging Timothy to include the kings and high officials in his (and the church he oversees) prayers. God will draw His elect from among all people, and will fail to save none of them.

 

[Jerome]

More:

"I admit that some called, Calvinists, are the most quarrelsome set breathing, this is the reason—while they have the main part of the Truth of God, many of them are leaving out something important—therefore God chastises them because they are some of His best children! It may be a sign of life that they are so eager after Truth that they kill one another in order to get it, but I wish they would leave off their quarrelling, for it is a disgrace to our religion. If they had more peace, I might hope better for the progress of Truth. Everyone says to me—“Look there at your Brothers and Sisters! I never saw such a set of cut-throats in my life! I never saw a Church where they have the Gospel, where they are not always falling out!” Well, that is near the truth and I am ashamed to confess it." —Charles Spurgeon, "The God of Peace"

 

[psalms109:31]

Trust

I don't think belief is the answer to start our walk, I think it starts off with trust. We trust in Christ first then we listen and learn from Him and He teaches what to believe.

We can't believe in something we are not taught and we can not be taught until we trust in the one teaching.

I see we come to Jesus just as we are sinners dead and He removes the veil from our eyes and leads us to life eternal.

We following a crowd does not mean we are drawn by the Father.

All could not come until Jesus was lifted up and they will not until they trust and listen and learn from Him

We are predestined in Christ not apart from Him. It was believers He was talking about being predestined not those apart from Christ.

God has the end result He doesn't need to look forward to know who they are.

I will not believe that God randomly chose anyone, but chose those who trust in His Son and predestined ordained them to believe and be saved.

To trust in the Lord is not work to God at all.

Just trust in the Lord and God made a promise you will not be disappointed.

 

[Winman]

OB, if God is not willing that all men be saved, then how can you know he is willing that YOU should be saved?

Chew on that awhile.

 

[Osage Bluestem]

OB, if God is not willing that all men be saved, then how can you know he is willing that YOU should be saved?

Chew on that awhile.

Everyone who has faith in Christ is saved.

Romans 5:1
1 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

 

[psalms109:31]

Will or desire

God wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth that is why He wants us to make peace with everyone. They didn't believe Paul back then about this, that is why He said I am not lying

God will only save those who trust in His Son.What God wants is showing what desire we should have. In the end it will not be what He wants that will happen, but what He wills will happen.

Mark 16:
15 He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

It is not what He wants that He will get or He would of put wills there instead it is what He wills He will get.

 

[Winman]

Everyone who has faith in Christ is saved.

Romans 5:1
1 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

How can you have faith if you are not sure God wants YOU to be saved? That is what faith is, to be sure, to have confidence. I would find it impossible to have real faiith if I believed God only wants to save a few elect persons.

So what makes you sure?

 

[Winman]

Everyone who has faith in Christ is saved.

Romans 5:1
1 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

How can you have faith if you are not sure God wants YOU to be saved? That is what faith is, to be sure, to have confidence. I would find it impossible to have real faiith if I believed God only wants to save a few elect persons.

So what makes you sure? Did God come down and personally tell you that you were one of the few chosen elect?

 

[Jarthur001]

More:

"I admit that some called, Calvinists, are the most quarrelsome set breathing, this is the reason—while they have the main part of the Truth of God, many of them are leaving out something important—therefore God chastises them because they are some of His best children! It may be a sign of life that they are so eager after Truth that they kill one another in order to get it, but I wish they would leave off their quarrelling, for it is a disgrace to our religion. If they had more peace, I might hope better for the progress of Truth. Everyone says to me—“Look there at your Brothers and Sisters! I never saw such a set of cut-throats in my life! I never saw a Church where they have the Gospel, where they are not always falling out!” Well, that is near the truth and I am ashamed to confess it." —Charles Spurgeon, "The God of Peace"

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1621192&postcount=60

Posted by Jerome….
"We believe in the five great points commonly known as Calvinistic; but we do not regard those five points as being barbed shafts which we are to thrust between the ribs of our fellow-Christians." —Charles Spurgeon

 

[Jerome]

Good stuff:thumbs:

More from Spurgeon:

"The Calvinism of some men is not the Calvinism of John Calvin, nor the Calvinism of the Puritans, much less the Christianity of God."

 

[Jarthur001]

Good stuff:thumbs:

More from Spurgeon:

"The Calvinism of some men is not the Calvinism of John Calvin, nor the Calvinism of the Puritans, much less the Christianity of God."

In context, we see just how clear Jerome misleads......

I am, I ever must be, from my deep and terrible experience of the depravity of the human heart, a high Calvinist, in the best sense of that term. I am not bitter towards others; but I do love to preach the fullness of the decree of God. I do love, however, so to preach it that I may combine it with practical exhortation and fullness of precept. There are many brethren who believe the same. The stone has to be rolled away from the spulchre of Calvinism yet. The Calvinism of some men is not the Calvinism of John Calvin, nor the Calvinism of the Puritans, much less the Christianity of God. My dear brother Bloomfield is one of those who hold the truth very strongly. I hope he may hold it never less sternly. He has an affectionate loving heart, and he is not prepared to condemn one who, in some points, differs from the brethren. I do differ from some in certain matters, those are but small matters compared with the grand fundamentals of that holy faith delivered to us by Christ, translated by Paul, handed down by Augustine, clarified by Calvin, vindicated yet again by Whitfield, and held by us as the very truth of God, as it is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[Jerome]

"Condemning other people, cutting off the saints of God right and left, is but poor virtue, and to have these blessed doctrines in the head while neglecting them in the heart is anything but a gracious sign." —Spurgeon, "Labour in Vain"

"It is one thing to believe in the doctrines of grace, but quite another thing to accept all the encrustations which have formed upon those doctrines, and also a very different matter to agree with the spirit which is apparent in some who profess to propagate the pure truth." —Spurgeon, "Rivers of Water in a Dry Place"

 

[Jarthur001]

"Condemning other people, cutting off the saints of God right and left, is but poor virtue, and to have these blessed doctrines in the head while neglecting them in the heart is anything but a gracious sign." —Spurgeon, "Labour in Vain"

in context this is CONDEMNING calvinist that have a faith in word but not action.

Yet we have scores of people who if they can get hold of the Calvinistic creed at the right end; if they become masters of it and know how to argue against Arminianism; if they become not only sound Calvinists but a little sounder still, having not only the sixteen ounces to the pound but two or three ounces over and above, so as to make them ultra-Calvinistic; why then they imagine that all must be well. “I never can hear a preacher,” this man will say, “who is not sound. I can tell at once when there is a grain of free will in the sermon.” This is all very well, but he who boasts thus may be no better than the devil; indeed, he may not be as good, for the devil believes and trembles, but these men believe and are too much hardened in their own conceit to think of trembling. Away with the idea that believing sound doctrine and chaining ourselves to a cast iron creed is vital godliness and eternal life. Orthodox sinners will find that hell is hot, and that their knowledge of predestination will not yield a cooling drop to their parched tongues. Condemning other people, cutting off the saints of God right and left, is very poor virtue, and to have these blessed doctrines in the head while neglecting them in the heart is anything but a gracious sign.

"It is one thing to believe in the doctrines of grace, but quite another thing to accept all the encrustations which have formed upon those doctrines, and also a very different matter to agree with the spirit which is apparent in some who profess to propagate the pure truth." —Spurgeon, "Rivers of Water in a Dry Place"

In Context, this is talking about other believers.

I always feel very fidgety when theologians begin making calculations about the Lord Jesus. There used to be a very strong contention about particular redemption and general redemption, and though I confess myself to be to the very backbone a believer in Calvinistic doctrine, I never felt at home in such discussions. It is one thing to believe in the doctrines of grace, but quite another thing to accept all the encrustations which have formed upon those doctrines, and also a very different matter to agree with the spirit which is apparent in some who profess to propagate the pure truth.

I can have nothing to do with calculating the value of the atonement of Christ. I see clearly the speciality of the purpose and intent of Christ in presenting his expiatory sacrifice, but I cannot see a limit to its preciousness, and I dare not enter into computations as to its value or possible efficacy. Appraisers and valuers are out of place here. Sirs, I would like to see you with your slates and pencils calculating the cubical contents of the Amazon: I would be pleased to see you sitting down and estimating the quantity of fluid in the Ganges, the Indus, and the Orinoco; but when you have done so, and summed up all the rivers of this earth, I will tell you that your task was only fit for school-boys, and that you are not at the beginning of that arithmetic which can sum up the fullness of Christ, for in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily. His merit, his power, his love, his grace surpass all knowledge, and consequently all estimate. Limits are not to be found, neither shore nor bottom are discoverable.

 

[Osage Bluestem]

How can you have faith if you are not sure God wants YOU to be saved? That is what faith is, to be sure, to have confidence. I would find it impossible to have real faiith if I believed God only wants to save a few elect persons.

So what makes you sure?

What makes me sure is that I do have faith. Faith isn't possible for an unregenerate person. So since I do believe that Christ is who he said he is has done what he said he has done and will do what he says he will do, and I love and trust in him, I am certain.

That's a principle reason that the Holy Spirit inspired John to write what he wrote.

1 John 5:13
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

 

[Jerome]

Spurgeon...

is CONDEMNING calvinist that have a faith in word but not action.

He sure is:thumbs:

Spurgeon...

is talking about other believers.

Exactly.
More specifically he is referring to certain believers in the doctrines of grace.

Spurgeon reproved the shenanigans, excesses, nastiness, etc. he saw among Calvinists.

He refused to mangle Scripture to fit a grand theory.

I have great respect for orthodoxy, but my reverence for inspiration is far greater.

 

[glfredrick]

How can you have faith if you are not sure God wants YOU to be saved? That is what faith is, to be sure, to have confidence. I would find it impossible to have real faiith if I believed God only wants to save a few elect persons.

So what makes you sure? Did God come down and personally tell you that you were one of the few chosen elect?

Where to you get the idea that there are only a "few" elect?

Does the Bible number the elect that one might know?

I would say that "whosoever will..." is the actual number of the elect. God, knowing and setting aside the elect before the Foundation of the Earth, made it possible for all the elect to come to Him, but they still have to!

Also, is it SO easy to be able to turn your back on God -- for His simply BEING GOD, and deciding one's fate? Seems like perhaps you wish to instruct our God as to how He should conduct His business. Some others have tried that and have been found wanting when confronted with the truth and power of God.

 

[Osage Bluestem]

Spurgeon...


He sure is:thumbs:

Spurgeon...


Exactly.
More specifically he is referring to certain believers in the doctrines of grace.

Spurgeon reproved the shenanigans, excesses, nastiness, etc. he saw among Calvinists.

He refused to mangle Scripture to fit a grand theory.

It is good to reprove nastiness among a flock. However, there is nothing nasty about defending the truth against those who twist it. That defensive action is only perceived as "nasty" if someone doesn't like the truth.