Defending the truth against the primary so called "proof texts" against Calvinism

[Baptist4life]

Five Traditional Baptist Concepts of Predestination

Now let us consider some concepts that come into play when traditional Baptists interpret New Testament passages that refer to predestination. Here is a representative list.

One is that the truly elect person is Christ Jesus (Christus means anointed, chosen, elect), and persons are elect if they are in Christ. That is true of Eph. 1:3-4.

Another is that God predestines groups, not individuals. That may be true of Jacob have I loved, Esau have I hated.

Another is that God predestines that those who believe will be saved and that those who do not will not. That is true of Col. 3:13.

Another is that God foreknows how each person will respond to the gospel and that God predestines that those who will believe will be saved and the others not. This is true of Rom. 8:28-30.

Another is that God predestines people for things other than salvation, for example, for service. That is true of Gal. 1:15-16. It also is true of Jacob have I loved, Esau have I hated.

The point is this: When we see the word predestination in the Bible, we should not assume that it means what Calvinists are saying. There are plenty of other uses of the word.

http://www.centerforbaptiststudies.org/hotissues/calvinismbible.htm

Edited to remove long post quoting from another site

 

[webdog]

I didn't do anything. One of the tenents of faith is assurance. If you don't have assurance you don't have faith.

Hebrews 11:1
1 Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see.

..yet when we are faithless He remains faithful.

 

[Osage Bluestem]

..yet when we are faithless He remains faithful.

John 3:36 NKJV
36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

 

[MB]

The thing that puzzles me is where are the proof text proving Calvinism?

Calvinism doesn't "proof text." Neither should anyone else with a solidly biblical theology. There is no one verse of Scripture that makes or breaks any theology!
[/quote]
I wasn't asking for one verse I was asking for proof with out which you have no idea of what the truth really is. If your doctrine isn't in scripture then why believe it. The gospel is truth, the only truth, man's interpretation of it, is not truth.

First, you are mistaking God's election for salvation. Election is but one part of salvation. Each elect person still has to follow through with the effectual call, regeneration, faith/repentance, etc., before salvation is complete.

Sounds like works for Salvation to me.

Get this first phase incorrect and you'll never come to understand what it is that God caused to be revealed in the Word.

Are you saying that if I Don't believe in the order you just described I'm not saved. I've never read that in scripture. The Jews are the only one's to be elected before Salvation and that's because they were first chosen to be God's people.

Thanks for making out point! The elect get saved. The non-elect do not. How do you argue against one of the most plain texts in all of Scripture that indicates that God did indeed choose?

The adoption of Gentiles like me takes place after we have been convinced, and convicted. It takes place when we submit to His righteousness. There is no election of Gentiles before Salvation. Yes we are called but not all called are saved or chosen. Yes we are drawn to Christ but all are drawn to Christ after He was lifted up on the cross. Even then not all are saved. Only those who have submitted to the righteousness of God. Rom. 10:1-3 Yes The Holy Spirit motovated me towards submission to Christ. That didn't take regeneration it took the gospel being preached through a preacher filled with the Holy Spirit and the two both Spirit and preacher working to convince me of the truth. This is how faith is received. There simply is no other way.

Another truth of the Word held by Calvinists as well as Arminians. Can it be any other way? We do not attempt to set Scripture against Scripture!

I don't attempt to make scripture contradict it self.

Which parts of the Bible ought we toss out because they do not apply to us? Realize that what you suggest is an ancient heresy, started first by Marcion circa AD 120 or so... He tried to take away from the completeness of God's Word and only select the parts that he thought applied to him.

This is how Calvinist defend a doctrie that can't stand on it's own they attack the messenger. This makes your argument very weak in deed. I haven't tossed out one dot. However to believe Calvinism you have to go against what scripture actually says and claim your interpretation must be correct because you haven't understood what it actually says. You haven't understood because you do not consider the Bible as a whole you only consider your doctrine that was created by Augustine for the Catholic church.

Does the NT indicate that the elect were chosen before the foundations of the world? Yes or no? Reading INTO that, that the elect are only Jews is a rather contrived message when the text was written to Christians!

Does the NT indicate that we are "in Him" When we are chosen?

Let me ask you a question...

Have you ever bowed down and simply said to God, "Here I am... Do with me as You will, no matter what..." CAN you say that? If so, what is your beef with a sovereign God?

Yes I can say that and I can also say I have no argument with God. The word sovereign is not in scripture but since you brought it up.
Sovereign does not mean what Calvinist here have been telling me it does.
They believe if man can resist God then God isn't sovereign. Man can only resist with in the limits God has allowed. And no this does not deminish His sovereignty. Every man resist God it's called rebellion and it also is talked about all through scripture.
What a rediculous definition Calvinist claim for the word sovereign which isn't even in scripture.
MB

 

[glfredrick]

Actually, Romans 9 refutes the foundation of Calvinism, Total Depravity, look and see.

Rom 9:10-12 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had CONCEIVED by one, even by our father Issac; (For the children being not yet born, NEITHER HAVING DONE ANY GOOD OR EVIL, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; ) It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

God spoke this to Rebecca AFTER she had CONCEIVED. Both Esau and Jacob were existing and very much alive in her womb when God made this promise to her. And yet the scriptures say they had done NEITHER GOOD OR EVIL. This shows that the unborn child is not a sinner. This also shows that a person has to actually commit sin to be a sinner. A child in the womb is judged neither good nor evil, but neutral.

This refutes Total Depravity as Calvinism understands it.

This, again, proves that you don't really understand (at all!) what Total Depravity actually means. We don't HAVE to sin to be born sinners. We are born dead in our sin and trespasses, whether or not we actually DO something.

But, of course, in your Pelagian theology -- for that is exactly what you are suggesting -- we are sinless until we sin instead of being born as slaves to sin as the Bible states.

In fact, the passage you selected points to only God's election, and in fact strengthens the argument of Calvinism that so many here wish to say does not exist in the Scriptures. Who chose? Oh... God. When? Before they were born... Did ANY OF THEIR ACTIONS COUNT TOWARD THEIR CHOOSING? Nope...

 

[glfredrick]

Calvinism doesn't "proof text." Neither should anyone else with a solidly biblical theology. There is no one verse of Scripture that makes or breaks any theology!

I wasn't asking for one verse I was asking for proof with out which you have no idea of what the truth really is. If your doctrine isn't in scripture then why believe it. The gospel is truth, the only truth, man's interpretation of it, is not truth.


Sounds like works for Salvation to me.

Are you saying that if I Don't believe in the order you just described I'm not saved. I've never read that in scripture. The Jews are the only one's to be elected before Salvation and that's because they were first chosen to be God's people.


The adoption of Gentiles like me takes place after we have been convinced, and convicted. It takes place when we submit to His righteousness. There is no election of Gentiles before Salvation. Yes we are called but not all called are saved or chosen. Yes we are drawn to Christ but all are drawn to Christ after He was lifted up on the cross. Even then not all are saved. Only those who have submitted to the righteousness of God. Rom. 10:1-3 Yes The Holy Spirit motovated me towards submission to Christ. That didn't take regeneration it took the gospel being preached through a preacher filled with the Holy Spirit and the two both Spirit and preacher working to convince me of the truth. This is how faith is received. There simply is no other way.

I don't attempt to make scripture contradict it self.

This is how Calvinist defend a doctrie that can't stand on it's own they attack the messenger. This makes your argument very weak in deed. I haven't tossed out one dot. However to believe Calvinism you have to go against what scripture actually says and claim your interpretation must be correct because you haven't understood what it actually says. You haven't understood because you do not consider the Bible as a whole you only consider your doctrine that was created by Augustine for the Catholic church.



Does the NT indicate that we are "in Him" When we are chosen?


Yes I can say that and I can also say I have no argument with God. The word sovereign is not in scripture but since you brought it up.
Sovereign does not mean what Calvinist here have been telling me it does.
They believe if man can resist God then God isn't sovereign. Man can only resist with in the limits God has allowed. And no this does not deminish His sovereignty. Every man resist God it's called rebellion and it also is talked about all through scripture.
What a rediculous definition Calvinist claim for the word sovereign which isn't even in scripture.
MB

MB... I'm thinking that you got some quotes twisted... I would never even suggest that we "proof text" Calvinism. I advocate a total biblical picture for the doctrine, and I am a supporter.

 

[MB]

I am sure those sermons must be .......interesting. Like MB your pastor must look at the verses......and not see what they are clearly saying,
Like earlier when MB looks at eph 1:4 and completely misses it.

Oh goody open gossip. :applause:

I am sure there are many verses you never actually hear preached.
Robert....you post often,yet i do not see you comment on or explain what you believe the verses teach.

Robert....how do you understand Eph1:4-11
Jn6:37-44
Could you post those...maybe start a new thread,and explain how those verses do not mean what we all see them to teach.

Eph 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
Eph 1:2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

The first three verses are greetings and blessing God

To say we are chosen before the foundation of the world is rather ignorant since we did not exist before the foundation of the world. We certainly could not have been "In Him" other wise we would have been born saved.
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

This verse says to me that we are chosen in Him as God had determined before the foundation of the world that we should be Holy and with out blame before Him.


Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

This one is saying we are predestined to adoption. In other words once we are In Him as above we are then predestined. It is not saying we are predestined to be saved.

Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

This says it's for the praise of the glory of His grace.

Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

This is about His blood washing away our sins.

Eph 1:8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;

This is about His wisdom and prudence

Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

This is about His will, pleasure, and purpose.

Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

This is prophetic and is about our eventual gathering in Heaven.

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

This is about our inheritance our being predestinated to it and it's all according to His will.
MB

 

[Robert Snow]

Oh goody open gossip. :applause:

Eph 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
Eph 1:2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

The first three verses are greetings and blessing God

To say we are chosen before the foundation of the world is rather ignorant since we did not exist before the foundation of the world. We certainly could not have been "In Him" other wise we would have been born saved.
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

This verse says to me that we are chosen in Him as God had determined before the foundation of the world that we should be Holy and with out blame before Him.


Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

This one is saying we are predestined to adoption. In other words once we are In Him as above we are then predestined. It is not saying we are predestined to be saved.

Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

This says it's for the praise of the glory of His grace.

Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

This is about His blood washing away our sins.

Eph 1:8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;

This is about His wisdom and prudence

Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

This is about His will, pleasure, and purpose.

Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

This is prophetic and is about our eventual gathering in Heaven.

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

This is about our inheritance our being predestinated to it and it's all according to His will.
MB

Thank you. You did a much better job than I would have done, and besides, I had a long day at the machine shop, cut my finger and I don't feel like typing that much today.

 

[Winman]

This, again, proves that you don't really understand (at all!) what Total Depravity actually means. We don't HAVE to sin to be born sinners. We are born dead in our sin and trespasses, whether or not we actually DO something.

But, of course, in your Pelagian theology -- for that is exactly what you are suggesting -- we are sinless until we sin instead of being born as slaves to sin as the Bible states.

In fact, the passage you selected points to only God's election, and in fact strengthens the argument of Calvinism that so many here wish to say does not exist in the Scriptures. Who chose? Oh... God. When? Before they were born... Did ANY OF THEIR ACTIONS COUNT TOWARD THEIR CHOOSING? Nope...

Nonsense. The scriptures do not say we are born sinners. The only verse that can be remotely interpreted to say this is Psa 51:5 which is figurative. Verse 7 says, Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow. Is this to be taken literally? Of course not, but you take verse 5 as literal because it suits your doctrine. Verse 8 says, Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice. Did God literally break David's bones? Can bones rejoice? No. So this Psalm is written in figurative language and is not to be taken literally.
But Rom 9:11 is not figurative, and the scriptures say Jacob and Esau had done neither good or evil in Rebecca's womb. If you don't like that, just take a marker and blot this verse out.
And contrary to what you think, Rom 9:11 shows election is founded on faith--> BUT OF HIM THAT CALLETH. Compare this to Heb 11:8 where it says when Abraham was "called" he obeyed by faith. But I don't expect you to comprehend this.

 

[jbh28]

To say we are chosen before the foundation of the world is rather ignorant since we did not exist before the foundation of the world.

I'm sorry, but the Bible is very clear that we were chosen before the foundation of the world. "even as he chose us(us, not Christ) in him(Christ) before the foundation of the world(when the verb happened which was 'chose'" We don't have to exist yet for God to choose us.

 

[Tom Butler]

Nonsense. The scriptures do not say we are born sinners. The only verse that can be remotely interpreted to say this is Psa 51:5 which is figurative. Verse 7 says, Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow. Is this to be taken literally? Of course not, but you take verse 5 as literal because it suits your doctrine. Verse 8 says, Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice. Did God literally break David's bones? Can bones rejoice? No. So this Psalm is written in figurative language and is not to be taken literally.
But Rom 9:11 is not figurative, and the scriptures say Jacob and Esau had done neither good or evil in Rebecca's womb. If you don't like that, just take a marker and blot this verse out.
And contrary to what you think, Rom 9:11 shows election is founded on faith--> BUT OF HIM THAT CALLETH. Compare this to Heb 11:8 where it says when Abraham was "called" he obeyed by faith. But I don't expect you to comprehend this.

Winman, you've got my attention on this one. But the right words are important, so I want to make sure I'm clear on what you're saying.

I understand that you hold that babies are not born sinners. But, are the born sinful? That is, with a tendency toward sinning. I don't want to put words in your mouth, but are you saying that while they are not born sinners, they are born sinful (that is, with a sinful nature), and will inevitably sin at some point. And that's when they become sinners.

I look forward to your comments.

 

[Iconoclast]

MB,
you said;

To say we are chosen before the foundation of the world is rather ignorant since we did not exist before the foundation of the world. We certainly could not have been "In Him" other wise we would have been born saved.
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

This verse says to me that we are chosen in Him as God had determined before the foundation of the world that we should be Holy and with out blame before Him.

you say this-To say we are chosen before the foundation of the world is rather ignorant since we did not exist before the foundation of the world. We certainly could not have been "In Him" other wise we would have been born saved.
Then you say the very same statement;

This verse says to me that we are chosen in Him as God had determined before the foundation of the world that we should be Holy and with out blame before Him.

THEN YOU SAY THIS ;

In other words once we are In Him as above we are then predestined

This is exactly what i was talking about.You have completely missed the passage. Do you believe the Apostle Paul was ignorant when he wrote these verses/

9Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

2In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

If you look at the passages that teach truth and you resist the truth and try to explain them away, you will never come to truth.

 

[Rippon]

Faith is dependence or reliance upon Jesus, not simply believing a set of facts.

What Jesus? One has to know some biblical propositions --not just trusting Jesus. That doesn't convey too much. Folks need to know doctrine about Christ --not just a generalized message about his Personhood.

 

[Winman]

Winman, you've got my attention on this one. But the right words are important, so I want to make sure I'm clear on what you're saying.

I understand that you hold that babies are not born sinners. But, are the born sinful? That is, with a tendency toward sinning. I don't want to put words in your mouth, but are you saying that while they are not born sinners, they are born sinful (that is, with a sinful nature), and will inevitably sin at some point. And that's when they become sinners.

I look forward to your comments.

Tom, I appreciate your questions. As you can see, I am not pulling this out of the air or wresting scripture. Rom 9:11 says that neither Jacob or Esau had done any good or evil when they were in their mother Rebecca's womb.

Sinner is a legal term like felon. A felon is not any different from a non-felon, except the felon has committed a crime, a felony. God does not judge us for our nature, he judges us according to our actions, our works.

2 Cor 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Eze 12:14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

God does not judge us for our nature, he judges us for our works, our actions.

We are born "flesh". I do not like the term sin nature, it is never used in the scriptures. The scriptures say "flesh" and that is the term I prefer. Jesus also came in the flesh and had the same lusts and desires we do.

Heb 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

The scriptures are clear that Jesus was fully man and had the same nature we have. He was tempted just like we are, except he never obeyed these lusts when they would have caused him to sin.

So, I do not like this term sin nature, because Jesus had the exact same nature we have. If we have a sin nature, then Jesus did too. In fact, the scriptures say if a person denies that Jesus came in the flesh, that is the spirit of antichrist.

1 John 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

The scriptures do speak of sinful flesh, but that is a legal term applied to one who has actually sinned.

Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Jesus did not have sinful flesh, because he never sinned.

Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

The scriptures say Jesus was tempted in all points as we are. In James it says every man is tempted when he is drawn away of his "own lust" and enticed (seduced).

James 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Having lust, or being tempted is not sin. It is only when a person willingly chooses to obey (conceives) the lust of the flesh that they actually sin. And I do believe the flesh can become more depraved, more corrupted through sinful actions. We can observe this, we can see a person start drinking and in time become a full fledged alcoholic, or a person develop a drug addiction. We can see someone progress from committing small petty crimes to serious felonies. So a person can become more corrupt the more they sin. And this is what the scriptures say.

1 Cor 15:33 Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners.

This verse is actually saying what every parent has told their teenagers, that they should not hang around with troublemakers. If you hang around with people who take drugs, they are going to influence you and tempt you to take drugs too. Or if they like to break into houses, they are going to try to involve you.

This is how Adam made men sinners. He brought corruption into the world. Adam was flesh. He was created in a perfect world without a single need or problem. Yet he fell into sin over a fruit on a tree. What a minor temptation, and yet it tempted him to fall. Now imagine us today, we are born into a tremendously wicked world with temptations all around us. It is no wonder that we sin. This is not God's fault, Adam brought this corruption into the world.

It is like evolution. Because of Charles Darwin there are many millions of atheists and evolutionists in the world today. These persons did not have Darwin's beliefs imputed into their minds and souls, but because of the influence of Darwin that spread into the world especially through higher education, many have been made atheists and evolutionists. It is through Darwin's unbelief and the consequences of his unbelief that many have been infected with unbelief as well.

 

[Osage Bluestem]

Evil is a problem of the heart.

Everyone is born naturally evil.

Just because someone hasn't done something evil doesn't mean that they're not evil.

Again, plenty of passages that teach that.

7. SCRIPTURE PROOF

I Cor. 2:14: The natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him; and he cannot know them, because they are spiritually judged.
Gen. 2:17: But of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it; for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Rom. 5:12: Therefore, as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin; and so death passed unto all men, for that all sinned.
II Cor. 1:9: Yea, we ourselves had the sentence of death within ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God who raiseth the dead.
Eph. 2:1-3: And you did He make alive, when ye were dead through your trespasses and sins, wherein ye once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the powers of the air, of the spirit that now worketh in the sons of disobedience; among whom ye also all once lived in the lusts of your flesh, doing the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
Eph. 2:12: Ye were at that time separate from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
Jer. 13:23: Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard his spots? Then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.
Ps. 51:5: Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity; And in sin did my mother conceive me.
John 3:3: Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except one is born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Rom. 3:10-12: As it is written, There is none righteous, no not one;
There is none that understandeth, There is none that seeketh after God;
They have all turned aside, they are together become unprofitable;
There is none that doeth good, no, not so much as one.
Job 14:4: Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one.
I Cor. 1:18: For the word of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us who are saved it is the power of God.
Acts 13:41: Behold, ye despisers, and wonder and perish; For I work a work in your days, A work which ye shall in no wise believe, if one declare it unto you.
Prov. 30:12: There is a generation that are pure in their own eyes,
And yet are not washed from their filthiness.
John 5:21: For as the Father raiseth the dead and giveth them life, even so the Son also giveth life to whom He will.
John 6:53: Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink His blood, ye have not life in yourselves.
John 8:19: They said therefore unto Him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye know neither me, nor my Father; if ye knew me, ye would know my Father also.
Matt. 11:25: I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou didst hide these things from the wise and understanding, and didst reveal them unto babes.
II Cor. 5:17: if any man is in Christ, he is a new creature. John 14:16: (And I will pray the Father, and He shall give you another Comforter, that He may be with you forever,) even the Spirit of truth: whom the world cannot receive; for it beholdeth Him not, neither knoweth Him; ye know Him; for He abideth with you, and shall be in you.
John 3:19: And this is the judgment, that light is come unto the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their works were evil.

Link: http://www.the-highway.com/depravity_Boettner.html

 

[glfredrick]

It is sort of weird how God can "look forward" to see if someone will accept Him by faith -- and then do the work to insure that that same someone can indeed do that, but He cannot look forward to insure that a baby will indeed sin so that He can call that pre-born infant a "sinner."

Perhaps a bit of consistency in God's attributes and in God's election is in order?

 

[Winman]

I do not deny that man has an evil heart, but the scriptures do not say man is born that way. In fact, in Genesis 8:21 God says, "for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his YOUTH".

Now if you look up the word "youth" you will never see it to mean a small child, in fact it is almost always used of a young man in his teens, or even older. Look and see for yourself if you don't believe me.

Psalm 51:5 is figurative language and should not be taken literally. Besides this, the traditional Jewish interpretation of this verse was interpreted to say David was saying he was born into a sinful world (in iniquity). This has been the traditional Jewish interpretation of this verse for 3000 years. I agree with this interpretation.

The scriptures speaking of our sin say "we have gone astray", "corrupted our way", "have turned aside" etc... All of these verses show that we did not originate as sinners, but became sinners. You will not find one verse in the scriptures that says we are born evil. To the contrary, Jesus said of little children, "of such is the kingdom of heaven".

We are not judged according to our nature, we are judged for those things done in our body whether good or evil. And the scriptures show Jacob nor Esau had done either in their mother's womb. You cannot get around this.

 

[jbh28]

I do not deny that man has an evil heart, but the scriptures do not say man is born that way. In fact, in Genesis 8:21 God says, "for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his YOUTH".

Now if you look up the word "youth" you will never see it to mean a small child, in fact it is almost always used of a young man in his teens, or even older. Look and see for yourself if you don't believe me.

Psalm 51:5 is figurative language and should not be taken literally. Besides this, the traditional Jewish interpretation of this verse was interpreted to say David was saying he was born into a sinful world (in iniquity). This has been the traditional Jewish interpretation of this verse for 3000 years. I agree with this interpretation.

The scriptures speaking of our sin say "we have gone astray", "corrupted our way", "have turned aside" etc... All of these verses show that we did not originate as sinners, but became sinners. You will not find one verse in the scriptures that says we are born evil. To the contrary, Jesus said of little children, "of such is the kingdom of heaven".

We are not judged according to our nature, we are judged for those things done in our body whether good or evil. And the scriptures show Jacob nor Esau had done either in their mother's womb. You cannot get around this.

Would you say that we are born with a sinful nature, but are not "sinners" until we actually commit a sin?

 

[Winman]

Would you say that we are born with a sinful nature, but are not "sinners" until we actually commit a sin?

For about the tenth time, the scriptures say we are born "flesh". The term "sin nature" is not found in scripture. That is a man made invention.

The scriptures also say Jesus came "in the flesh" and says he had the same "nature" as the seed of Abraham, and IN ALL THINGS it behoved him to be made like his brethren (Heb 2:16-17). The scriptures say he was IN ALL POINTS tempted like as we are, yet without sin (Heb 4:15).

So you tell me, did Jesus have a sin nature? Because he was fully man and had the same nature as us, and suffered the same temptations.

This is further proved in James 1:13 that says, "for God cannot be tempted with evil". Now we know Jesus is God, but we also know he was tempted. So how can this be?

The answer is that Jesus was also fully man and shared our nature and thus could be tempted.

This is beyond our comprehension, yet this is what the scriptures say.

 

[jbh28]

For about the tenth time...

You know what they say, tenth time's a charm...or is that third...