Define "The Gospel"

[BobRyan]

It appears to this Bible student - that there is a connection between the "Commandments of God" that we see in 1Cor 7:19 and in many other places in the NT - and the "Law of God" that we see upheld in Rom 3:31 and that we see being so central to the New Covenant in Heb 8.

At this point - that sermon on the Commandments of God by D.L. Moody comes to mind.

Perhaps a few quotes from Moody's sermon would help to illustrate the point.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

It appears to this Bible student - that there is a connection between the "Commandments of God" that we see in 1Cor 7:19 and in many other places in the NT - and the "Law of God" that we see upheld in Rom 3:31 and that we see being so central to the New Covenant in Heb 8.

At this point - that sermon on the Commandments of God by D.L. Moody comes to mind.

Perhaps a few quotes from Moody's sermon would help to illustrate the point.

in Christ,

Bob

Please spare us Bob.
The SDA and the Oneness Pentecostal both have a propensity to quote Moody, for whatever reason I don't know. Moody had a grade five education. I don't look to him for my source of theology.

 

[BobRyan]

Just in case there might be one or two people on this Baptist board who think of D.L.Moody as something other than a "fifth-grader"

GOD'S HANDWRITING​

Let me call your attention to the fact that God wrote on the tables of stone at Sinai as well as on the wall of Belshazzar's palace.

These are the only messages to men that God has written with His own hand. He wrote the commandments out twice, and spoke them aloud in the hearing of Israel.

If it were known that God Himself were going to speak once again to man, what eagerness and excitement there would be! For nearly nineteen hundred years He has been silent. No inspired message has been added to the Bible for nearly nineteen hundred years. How eagerly all men would listen if God should speak once more. Yet men forget that the Bible is God's own Word, and that it is as truly His message today as when it was delivered of old. The law that was given at Sinai has lost none of its solemnity. Time cannot wear out its authority or the fact of its authorship.

I can imagine someone saying, "I won't be weighed by that law. I don't believe in it."

Now men may cavil as much as they like about other parts of the Bible, but I have never met an honest man that found fault with the Ten Commandments. Infidels may mock the Lawgiver and reject Him who has delivered us from the curse of the law, but they can't help admitting that the commandments are right. Renan said that they are for all nations, and will remain the commandments of God during all the centuries.
http://www.fbinstitute.com/moody/The_TenCommandments_Text.html

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

Just in case there might be one or two people on this Baptist board who think of D.L.Moody as something other than a "fifth-grader"

in Christ,

Bob

It is a moot post Bob--totally meaningless.
I have books of Moody's sermons--hundreds of sermons by Moody.
Moody did not believe that the law was part of the gospel.
This thread is entitled "Define 'the Gospel'"
The law has nothing to do with the gospel.
Read 1Cor.15:1-4, and there you will find the definition of the gospel, the only gospel which saves, and there is no mention of the law.

 

[BobRyan]

Hebrews 8 makes it clear that the New Covenant is Key to the Gospel.

Turns out that the New Covenant includes the writing of the Law of God on the heart - hint - the New Creation - the New Birth.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

Hebrews 8 makes it clear that the New Covenant is Key to the Gospel.

Turns out that the New Covenant includes the writing of the Law of God on the heart - hint - the New Creation - the New Birth.

in Christ,

Bob

The gospel does not include the writing of the law of God on the heart.
That is not the gospel. It may be a fact; but it is not the gospel. You preach "another gospel," not the gospel that the Bible teaches.

 

[Amy.G]

The law has nothing to do with the gospel.

It does in a sense (this post is for Bob's benefit). Because Christ completely obeyed the Law and fulfilled it, and because He took my punishment for breaking the Law, I am not under penalty of the Law. It has no power over me.


Bob, let go of the Law and trust in Christ. :flower:

 

[BobRyan]

It does in a sense (this post is for Bob's benefit). Because Christ completely obeyed the Law and fulfilled it, and because He took my punishment for breaking the Law, I am not under penalty of the Law. It has no power over me.


Bob, let go of the Law and trust in Christ. :flower:

In part of Romans 3 and Galatians 3 we see the role of the Law of God - the Commandments of God, in the context of the lost person. It points out sin - it condemns. It shows the need of a savior from sin.

In almost all of Romans 6 and in 1Cor 7:19 and in Matt 7, James 2 and James 4 and in most of Romans 2, Hebrews 8 we see the role of the Law of God for the saved saint.

Some people prefer to only speak of the law from the stand point of the lost. But I believe that the Bible teaching on both roles for the Law of God - is of value in gaining full understanding on that key subject.

Thus the New Covenant turns out to be very much key to the Gospel message itself.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

The gospel does not include the writing of the law of God on the heart.
That is not the gospel. It may be a fact; but it is not the gospel. .

Your imagination is clearly more active than mine.

I give that one to you.

Now back to the Bible -

Hebrews 8
1 Now the main point in what has been said is this: we have such a high priest, who has taken His seat at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens,
2 a minister in the sanctuary and in the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, not man.

3 For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices; so it is necessary that this high priest also have something to offer.
4 Now if He were on earth, He would not be a priest at all, since there are those who offer the gifts according to the Law;
5 who serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things, just as Moses was warned by God when he was about to erect the tabernacle; for, "" SEE,'' He says, ""THAT YOU MAKE all things ACCORDING TO THE PATTERN WHICH WAS SHOWN YOU ON THE MOUNTAIN.''


Then Paul shows the Jer 31:32 “New Covenant” to include the basic Gospel components

• Forgiveness of sin
• Adoption by God
• The New Birth – the New Creation

6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises.
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second.

8 For finding fault with them, He says, "" BEHOLD, DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL EFFECT A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH;
9 NOT LIKE THE COVENANT WHICH I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS ON THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT; FOR THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT, AND I DID NOT CARE FOR THEM, SAYS THE LORD.
10 "" FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: [b]I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MINDS, AND I WILL WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
11 "" AND THEY SHALL NOT TEACH EVERYONE HIS FELLOW CITIZEN, AND EVERYONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, "KNOW THE LORD,' FOR ALL WILL KNOW ME[/b], FROM THE LEAST TO THE GREATEST OF THEM.
12 "" FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR INIQUITIES, AND I WILL REMEMBER THEIR SINS NO MORE.''




in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

Your imagination is clearly more active than mine.

I give that one to you.

Now back to the Bible -

Hebrews 8

Then Paul shows the Jer 31:32 “New Covenant” to include the basic Gospel components

• Forgiveness of sin
• Adoption by God
• The New Birth – the New Creation

Bob

Whose imagination is active??
Remember the title of this thread:
Define "The Gospel"
The gospel does not contain the law.
The gospel does not contain OT ceremony or ceremonial law.

The gospel is the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ, otherwise defined as "good news."
Please check 1Cor.15:1-4 where the gospel is defined. You will find no evidence of the law.

 

[steaver]

Whose imagination is active??
Remember the title of this thread:
Define "The Gospel"
The gospel does not contain the law.
The gospel does not contain OT ceremony or ceremonial law.

The gospel is the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ, otherwise defined as "good news."
Please check 1Cor.15:1-4 where the gospel is defined. You will find no evidence of the law.

I would like to know how those who bring the law into the "gospel" would express this to.... say.... a Jew today?

Would you say to them "Hey! I have good news for you who follow God's law, here it is, if you have never broken any of God's commandments you will be saved. Isn't that wonderful news!"

 

[steaver]

Originally Posted by D L Moody

GOD'S HANDWRITING​

Let me call your attention to the fact that God wrote on the tables of stone at Sinai as well as on the wall of Belshazzar's palace.

These are the only messages to men that God has written with His own hand. He wrote the commandments out twice, and spoke them aloud in the hearing of Israel.

If it were known that God Himself were going to speak once again to man, what eagerness and excitement there would be! For nearly nineteen hundred years He has been silent. No inspired message has been added to the Bible for nearly nineteen hundred years. How eagerly all men would listen if God should speak once more. Yet men forget that the Bible is God's own Word, and that it is as truly His message today as when it was delivered of old. The law that was given at Sinai has lost none of its solemnity. Time cannot wear out its authority or the fact of its authorship.

I can imagine someone saying, "I won't be weighed by that law. I don't believe in it."

Now men may cavil as much as they like about other parts of the Bible, but I have never met an honest man that found fault with the Ten Commandments. Infidels may mock the Lawgiver and reject Him who has delivered us from the curse of the law, but they can't help admitting that the commandments are right. Renan said that they are for all nations, and will remain the commandments of God during all the centuries

Bob, did you even notice that you gave bold emphasis to the words of his sermon that defeats your doctrine?

"Infidels may mock the Lawgiver and reject Him who has delivered us from the curse of the law",

The "US" he is speaking of is BORN AGAIN BELIEVERS. Moody correctly states that we believers are delivered from the curse of the law. WHile the commandments of God are moral, righteous and eternal truths, they cannot curse a believer who transgresses them.

Only those who desire to be judged by the law will be cursed by the law. Those who desire to have Jesus as Saviour from the curse of the law will be the only ones the curse of the law will passover.

 

[billwald]

> "Hey! I have good news for you who follow God's law, here it is, if you have never broken any of God's commandments you will be saved. Isn't that wonderful news!"

He would reply, "We have had this concept for 4000 years. We are forgiven on the basis of repentance and restitution where possible. When the Temple existed, our sacrifices were a public testimony of our repentance in the same way that you baptists say that adult baptism publicly demonstrates a prior conversion experience."

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by D L Moody

GOD'S HANDWRITING​

Let me call your attention to the fact that God wrote on the tables of stone at Sinai as well as on the wall of Belshazzar's palace.

These are the only messages to men that God has written with His own hand. He wrote the commandments out twice, and spoke them aloud in the hearing of Israel.

If it were known that God Himself were going to speak once again to man, what eagerness and excitement there would be! For nearly nineteen hundred years He has been silent. No inspired message has been added to the Bible for nearly nineteen hundred years. How eagerly all men would listen if God should speak once more. Yet men forget that the Bible is God's own Word, and that it is as truly His message today as when it was delivered of old. The law that was given at Sinai has lost none of its solemnity. Time cannot wear out its authority or the fact of its authorship.

I can imagine someone saying, "I won't be weighed by that law. I don't believe in it."

Now men may cavil as much as they like about other parts of the Bible, but I have never met an honest man that found fault with the Ten Commandments. Infidels may mock the Lawgiver and reject Him who has delivered us from the curse of the law, but they can't help admitting that the commandments are right. Renan said that they are for all nations, and will remain the commandments of God during all the centuries

[/I]

Bob, did you even notice that you gave bold emphasis to the words of his sermon that defeats your doctrine?

How so?

Is this where you skipped -

they are for all nations, and will remain the commandments of God during all the centuries

or is this where you "imagined" that when DL Moody stated

"Infidels may mock the Lawgiver and reject Him who has delivered us from the curse of the law",

That he reallyl meant so say "the ten commandments do not apply to the saints - we are free to worship idols"??

The "US" he is speaking of is BORN AGAIN BELIEVERS. Moody correctly states that we believers are delivered from the curse of the law.

Indeed - that is the part where we agree -- though I am always pleased to see you coming at this from the standpoint of the lost seeking to be released from the curse of the law - that still to this day condemns all lost sinners to the 2nd death - pointing all to their need of Jesus Christ as Savior.

In Romans 6 Paul argues that those who claim they must violate God's Law (live in sin) are in fact the slaves of sin - and not the servants of Christ.

Romans 6
Believers Are Dead to Sin, Alive to God


1What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?
2May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?
3Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?
4Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.

5For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,
6knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so thatwe would no longer be slaves to sin;
7 for he who has died is freed from sin.

8Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,
9knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him.


10For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.
11Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts,
13and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead,
13 -and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.


14For sin shall not be master over you[/b], for you are not under law but under grace.
15What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!
16Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?
17But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin[/b], you
became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed,
18and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.
[/quote]

 

[BobRyan]

John makes the same case in 1John 2 as Paul makes in Romans 6, and Romans 2.

1John 2

3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.[/b]
4 The one who says, "" I have come to know Him,'' and [b]does not keep His commandments, is a liar[/b], and the truth is not in him;
5 but whoever keeps His word[/b], in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him:
6 the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.[/b]

 

[BobRyan]

Speaking of D.L Moody

[/I]

Bob, did you even notice that you gave bold emphasis to the words of his sermon that defeats your doctrine?

"Infidels may mock the Lawgiver and reject Him who has delivered us from the curse of the law",

The "US" he is speaking of is BORN AGAIN BELIEVERS. Moody correctly states that we believers are delivered from the curse of the law. WHile the commandments of God are moral, righteous and eternal truths, they cannot curse a believer who transgresses them.

Hmm - you say you would like to read DL Moody instead of simply condemning him?

I agree.

More Of that same sermon you are referencing above -- more "inconvenient details".

DWIGHT L. MOODY
The Ten Commandments:

http://www.fbinstitute.com/moody/The_TenCommandments_Text.html


Exodus 20:2-17


Some people seem to think we have got beyond the commandments. What did Christ say?
"Think not that I am come to destroy the Law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till Heaven and Earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the Law, till all be fulfilled." (Matthew 5:17-18)
The commandments of God given to Moses in the Mount at Horeb are as binding today as ever they have been since the time they were proclaimed in the hearing of the people. The Jews said the law was not given in Palestine (which belonged to Israel), but in the wilderness, because the law was for all nations.

Jesus never condemned the law and the prophets, but He did condemn those who did not obey them. Because He gave new commandments, it does not follow that He abolished the old. Christ's explanation of them made them all the more searching. In His Sermon on the Mount, He carried the principles of the commandments beyond the mere letter. He unfolded them and showed that they embraced more, that they are positive as well as prohibitive.

The Old Testament closes with these words:
"Remember ye the Law of Moses My servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the Statutes and Judgments. Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the Earth with a curse." (Malachi 4:4-6)
Does that look as if the law of Moses was becoming obsolete?

The conviction deepens in me with the years that the old truths of the Bible must be stated and restated in the plainest possible language. I do not remember ever to have heard a sermon preached on the commandments. I have an index of two thousand five hundred sermons preached by Spurgeon, and not one of them selects its text from the first seventeen verses of Exodus 20. The people must be made to understand that the Ten Commandments are still binding, and that there is a penalty attached to their violation. We do not want a gospel of mere sentiment. The Sermon on the Mount did not blot out the Ten Commandments.

Now for "Some" on this board - the answer to almost every Bible problem that opposes their man-made-traditions is something like "dirty rotten stinking cult".

And if that is where they choose to leave off their Bible study and pursuit of truth - so be it. But thank God that men like D.L Moody chose to take the high road.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

Speaking of D.L Moody

Hmm - you say you would like to read DL Moody instead of simply condemning him?

I agree.

More Of that same sermon you are referencing above -- more "inconvenient details".

Now for "Some" on this board - the answer to almost every Bible problem that opposes their man-made-traditions is something like "dirty rotten stinking cult".

And if that is where they choose to leave off their Bible study and pursuit of truth - so be it. But thank God that men like D.L Moody chose to take the high road.

in Christ,

Bob

Bob you have entirely missed the boat as to what the gospel is. I have read many of Moody's sermons. Not once has he ever included that "you must keep the law in order to be saved." Why do you post such nonsense. We don't want to hear about Moody. Post the Word of God as it relates to the OP. This thread is about the Gospel, not Moody. Your posts are not even relevant to the OP. Neither are your references to Moody.

What is the gospel? It seems that you do not know what the gospel is.

 

[steaver]

Originally Posted by Steaver

The "US" he is speaking of is BORN AGAIN BELIEVERS. Moody correctly states that we believers are delivered from the curse of the law.

Bob;
Indeed - that is the part where we agree -- though I am always pleased to see you coming at this from the standpoint of the lost seeking to be released from the curse of the law - that still to this day condemns all lost sinners to the 2nd death - pointing all to their need of Jesus Christ as Savior.

So then what do we disagree on?

Some of your post speak of saved by grace through faith, no flesh being justified by the law.

And then some of your post speak of law keeping being part of a believer's justification and salvation.

Which is it for you?

In your view can the law condemn a born again believer to hell or not.

Moody says that the law cannot condemn a believer. Not that a believer should not obey the laws moral precepts, but that the curse of falling short cannot touch those in Christ covered by His shed blood.

 

[BobRyan]

The conviction deepens in me with the years that the old truths of the Bible must be stated and restated in the plainest possible language. I do not remember ever to have heard a sermon preached on the commandments. I have an index of two thousand five hundred sermons preached by Spurgeon, and not one of them selects its text from the first seventeen verses of Exodus 20. The people must be made to understand that the Ten Commandments are still binding, and that there is a penalty attached to their violation. We do not want a gospel of mere sentiment. The Sermon on the Mount did not blot out the Ten Commandments.

Moody says that the law cannot condemn a believer.

Kind of odd the way you summarized that quote -

I did not follow just how you got there.

Not that a believer should not obey the laws moral precepts, but that the curse of falling short cannot touch those in Christ covered by His shed blood.

Nice words - but not an actual quote of the Bible.

Here is one that you might find interesting.

"These things I write to you that you sin not - but if anyone sins we HAVE an advocate with the Father". 1John 2:1.

Instead of the Bible saying that there is no penalty for sin - the Bible position on sin is that EACH sin must be paid for by someone. As long as we remain saved - our sins are paid for by the sacrifice of Christ. But if we fall from grace - if we are "severed from Christ" Gal 5:4 - then that ceases to be the case.

YET even then - "He is able to restore them again" Rom 11 - "IF they do not continue in unbelief".

However lest we let your question take us too far from the topic - the point of the quotes from Moody is that he calls the Ten Commandments "the Commandments of God".

So also does Paul as we see in 1Cor 7:19 "But what matters is keeping the Commandments of God" and so also does Christ refer to them as God's Commandments in Mark 7.

Mark 7
6 And He said to them, ""Rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written: " THIS PEOPLE HONORS ME WITH THEIR LIPS, BUT THEIR HEART IS FAR AWAY FROM ME.
7 " BUT IN VAIN DO THEY WORSHIP ME, TEACHING AS DOCTRINES THE PRECEPTS OF MEN.'
8 ""Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.''
9 He was also saying to them, ""You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition.
10 ""For Moses said, " HONOR YOUR FATHER AND YOUR MOTHER'; and, " HE WHO SPEAKS EVIL OF FATHER OR MOTHER, IS TO BE PUT TO DEATH';
11 but you say, "If a man says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is to say, given to God),'
12 you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or his mother;
13 thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.''

And so it is no wonder John is so clear on this point.

1John 2
3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.[/b]
4 The one who says, "" I have come to know Him,'' and [b]does not keep His commandments, is a liar[/b], and the truth is not in him;
5 but whoever keeps His word[/b], in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him:
6 the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.[/b]

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

Here is one that you might find interesting.

"These things I write to you that you sin not - but if anyone sins we HAVE an advocate with the Father". 1John 2:1.

Note how Bob singles out this verse from 1John 2, and then

And so it is no wonder John is so clear on this point.

1John 2
3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.[/b]
4 The one who says, "" I have come to know Him,'' and [b]does not keep His commandments, is a liar[/b], and the truth is not in him;
5 but whoever keeps His word[/b], in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him:
6 the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.[/b]

in Christ,

Bob

After quoting verse one, Bob stated his position as such:

Instead of the Bible saying that there is no penalty for sin - the Bible position on sin is that EACH sin must be paid for by someone. As long as we remain saved - our sins are paid for by the sacrifice of Christ.

This position denies the sufficiency of the blood of Christ. When Christ cried out: "It is finished" (John 19:30). The position stated here believes that Christ work was not finished, nor can ever be finished until each and every sin is atoned for by all who will walk the face of this earth.

Thus, as you can see, to maintain this position Bob conveniently left out of his quoting of 1John 2, the one verse that defeats his position:

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
--Christ did atone for all our sins: past, present and future. He paid the penalty, satisfied the demands of God. It is noteworthy that in quoting the second chapter of First John it is this one verse that Bob left out--purposely.