Define "The Gospel"

[Dr. Walter]

Bob this judgement is yet FUTURE and so there can be no real cases unless you beleive in OSAS?????????

Bob the text does not say the goodness of God "DID" lead them to repentance only that it SHOULD.

Bob there is not a word about repentance and faith in Christ as the basis for this judgement for eternal life! Ask yourself why that is missing in this passage since that is the condition for eternal life.

This text deals with those who come before God on their own merits and what God's standard by the Law is for dealing with personal merits.

That speculative idea was already debunked here -

==============

Here we have the "real" Gospel call to repentance - combined with the REAL Gospel call of God - calling all to repentance.


Rom 2
4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?



Here we have the "real" example of those who reject the Gospel call to repentance and the "real" warning about the "real" result of such action if people do not turn back from it because in the real justment real people will be judged for their real sins.

5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:

(The real setting for Romans 2 that your response above felt the need to ignore)

Next we have "real" perseverance of the saints - (a dozen or more texts to follow)

7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;

Next we have "real" failure of the real wicked who really reject the gospel

8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.


And this pattern follows the same teaching of Christ on this very point.

Chris points to the SAME two groups (the failing vs the succeeding examples) and the points to the SAME difference between them.

Matt 7

13 "" Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
14 ""For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

15 ""Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves.
16 ""You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they?

17 ""So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit.
18 ""A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit.
19 "" Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
20 ""So then, you will know them by their fruits.

21 "" Not everyone who says to Me, "Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.




A handy piece of misdirection on your part - but does not hold up to the "inconvenient details" - here is what I said about verse 4 "again".



My point "remains".





Here is the flawed argument of the OSAS filter above.

1. The lost are never told to "persevere" in being lost.
2. At no time does Romans 2 argue "this is all a bunch of fiction about sinless beings who persevere in being sinless".

Rather the starting context for Romans 2 is the Gospel "goodness of God" that in fact LEADS you to "repentance".

Thus the perfect match with the Gospel message of Christ in Matt 7 "by their fruits you shall know them"

The OSAS "filter" you are using wants to imagine that the failure depicted in real in Romans 2 but the success in the context of vs 4 Gospel REPENTANCE and vs 16 Gospel Judgment is all "fake" or some form of imagination EVEN to the degree in which it perfectly fits the teaching of Christ in Matt 7.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Another critical distinction is between those texts that deal with the professed child of God as opposed to the true born again child of God. Hebrews 3-4 deal with the professed (heb. 4:1-2) whose heart has never been mixed with faith in the gospel.

Wrong.

Heb 3:1-2 Paul is addressing the saints

Hebrews 3
1 Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of a heavenly calling, consider Jesus, the Apostle and High Priest of our confession;
2 He was faithful to Him who appointed Him, as Moses also was in all His house.

Heb 3:3-14 Paul encourages his fellow brethren - Christians - to maintain their present course - to persevere and includes HIMSELF in the group "IF WE hold fast OUR confidence". and he speaks to "Gospel" assurance. "Our assurance firm until the end"


3 For He has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses, by just so much as the builder of the house has more honor than the house.
4 For every house is built by someone, but the builder of all things is God.
5 Now Moses was faithful in all His house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken later;
6 but Christ was faithful[/b] as a Son over His house whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end.
7 Therefore, just as the Holy Spirit says, "" TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE,
8 DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS AS WHEN THEY PROVOKED ME, AS IN THE DAY OF TRIAL IN THE WILDERNESS,[/b]
9 WHERE YOUR FATHERS TRIED Me BY TESTING Me, AND SAW MY WORKS FOR FORTY YEARS.
10 "" THEREFORE I WAS ANGRY WITH THIS GENERATION[/b], AND SAID, "THEY ALWAYS GO ASTRAY IN THEIR HEART, AND THEY DID NOT KNOW MY WAYS';
11 AS I SWORE IN MY WRATH, "THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST.'''
12 Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.
13 But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called ""Today,'' so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,


The OSAS "filter" would want to eisegete the idea of the lost being told to persevere in their lost condition as if "that is a good thing". Thus the bible-bend that OSAS needs for this chapter is transparently obvious to the objective unbiased reader.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Bob this judgement is yet FUTURE and so there can be no real cases unless you beleive in OSAS?????????

Bob the text does not say the goodness of God "DID" lead them to repentance only that it SHOULD.

The Gospel context for all of us is that the Goodness of God leads us to repentance - some choose to accept - some to reject. That is the nature of free will.

Christ is the light that "coming into the world enlightens every man" John 1

The Holy Spirit "convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" John 16.

As Romans 2 and Matt 7 point out - some of us accept and some (the many of Matt 7) will reject.

This is the same Gospel truth as in every other part of scripture.

Bob there is not a word about repentance and faith in Christ as the basis for this judgement for eternal life!

If you ignore the "Goodness of God that leads you to repentance" and call it "not a word about repentance" then you have the first clue as to where your problem begins in Romans 2.

The words "faith in Christ" do not appear in Matt 7 nor in Romans 2, nor in 1Cor 6, nor in James 2 ... - but the changed lives appear in both Matt 7 and in Romans 2 chapters, the bad trees and the good trees, the righteous and the wicked all of whom are known by their fruits.

The future judgment that is "according to my Gospel" as Paul states in vs 16 "is real" and is "Gospel" and includes the Gospel context of repentance.

Ask yourself why that is missing in this passage since that is the condition for eternal life.

You are circling back to the condition of the lost --

THe lost are never to "persevere in doing good" Romans 2:7 - but the saved saints ARE --

If your solution is to circle back to the POV of the lost each time the subject of perseverance of the saints is contrasted to the life of the wicked (as is the case in Romans 2) then you are going to find a lot of uphill chapters ahead of you in scripture.

This text deals with those who come before God on their own merits

At "no point" does Romans 2 say "those who come before God on their own merits - persevering in doing good - will go to heaven".

The OSAS filter may "need" to eisegete that into the text - but it is not there.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Dr. Walter]

Find one text in scripture that relates the phrase "goodness of God" to the gospel??

Exegesis means you read out what God has put in the text not what YOU WANT to read out of the text. Look at what immediately precedes this text beginning in verse 2 "judgement...against them". Look at verse 3 "shalt escape the judgement of God". Look at verse 4 "despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forebearance in longsuffering". Look at the description in verse 5. God's goodness is demonstrated in FORBEARANCE OF JUDGEMENT upon those who think they are righteous but are wicked - v. 1 "Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.



But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.
3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

What you are READING INTO THIS TEXT is not what is put in the preceding or following context or in the text itself - that is called EISGESIS.

The Gospel context for all of us is that the Goodness of God leads us to repentance - some choose to accept - some to reject. That is the nature of free will.

Christ is the light that "coming into the world enlightens every man" John 1

The Holy Spirit "convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" John 16.

As Romans 2 and Matt 7 point out - some of us accept and some (the many of Matt 7) will reject.

This is the same Gospel truth as in every other part of scripture.



If you ignore the "Goodness of God that leads you to repentance" and call it "not a word about repentance" then you have the first clue as to where your problem begins in Romans 2.

The words "faith in Christ" do not appear in Matt 7 nor in Romans 2, nor in 1Cor 6, nor in James 2 ... - but the changed lives appear in both Matt 7 and in Romans 2 chapters, the bad trees and the good trees, the righteous and the wicked all of whom are known by their fruits.

The future judgment that is "according to my Gospel" as Paul states in vs 16 "is real" and is "Gospel" and includes the Gospel context of repentance.



You are circling back to the condition of the lost --

THe lost are never to "persevere in doing good" Romans 2:7 - but the saved saints ARE --

If your solution is to circle back to the POV of the lost each time the subject of perseverance of the saints is contrasted to the life of the wicked (as is the case in Romans 2) then you are going to find a lot of uphill chapters ahead of you in scripture.



At "no point" does Romans 2 say "those who come before God on their own merits - persevering in doing good - will go to heaven".

The OSAS filter may "need" to eisegete that into the text - but it is not there.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Romans 2:4 "The GOODNESS of God leads you to repentance"

Thus we have the "gospel context" for goodness of God in leading us to repentance instead of tossing us into the lake of fire - 2nd death.

Find one text in scripture that relates the phrase "goodness of God" to the gospel??

1. I can't believe you are actually going down that rabbit trail as a solution.

2. 2 Peter 3:9 would be instructive on that point.

Rom 2
4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?



2Peter 3:9 The Lord is long-suffering to usward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."


Albert Barnes

Not knowing. Not considering. The word used here-- \~agnown\~--means not merely to be ignorant of, but it denotes such a degree of inattention as to result in ignorance. Comp. Hosea ii. 8. In this sense it denotes a voluntary, and therefore a criminal ignorance.
Leadeth thee, etc. Or the tendency, the design of the goodness of God, is to induce men to repent of their sins, and not to lead them to deeper and more aggravated iniquity. The same sentiment is expressed in 2 Peter 3:9, "The Lord is long-suffering to usward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." See also Isaiah 30:18, "And therefore will the Lord wait, that he may be gracious unto you." Hosea 5:15; Ezekiel 18:23,32.
Repentance. Change of mind, and purpose, and life. The word here evidently means not merely sorrow, but a forsaking of sin, and turning from it. The tendency of God's goodness and forbearance to lead men to repentance is manifest in the following ways.


Adam Clarke
Verse 4. Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness
Wilt thou render of none effect that marked benevolence of God towards thee which has given so many superior advantages, and that forbearance which has tolerated thy many miscarriages, and that long-suffering which, after repeated provocations, still continues to bear with thee?
Not knowing
not acknowledging that this goodness of God, which has so long manifested itself in forbearance and long-suffering, leadeth thee to repentance-was designed to accomplish this blessed end; which thy want of consideration and acknowledgment has rendered, hitherto, ineffectual. This was a maxim among the Jews themselves; for, in Synopsis Sohar, it is said:-The holy blessed God delays his anger against the wicked, to the end that they may repent and be converted.

Burton Coffman

Verse 4
Or despised thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
Here is the third great principle of divine judgment:
III. God's goodness to sinners is not a sign that he approves of sin but that he looks to their repentance.
The goodness, forbearance and longsuffering, called here "the riches" of God, have reference to the special privileges of the covenant people, the Jews, who again were answered by Paul in the form of a diatribe. The argument which was refused is: "God has been very good to us, and therefore we shall continue to expect goodness and favor at his hands." The argument is false because it is founded on a misunderstanding of the purpose of God's goodness, which is not to show approval of people's sins, but to extend to them further opportunities of repentance, and to persuade them by means of such goodness.
Despise ...
means "to look down upon," or "to place a low estimate upon" something of far greater value than is recognized by the despiser. This is exactly what was done by those people, who treated the goodness and longsuffering of God as if it had been a tacit approval of their wickedness, and made it the basis of presumption that they would not finally be condemned.
Of special interest is the revelation here that God's goodness is designed to lead people to repentance, it being apparent that if God's goodness cannot lead people to repentance, nothing else can. The response of the soul to all the mercies of heaven, the response of the human individual to all the joys, benefits, and privileges of life, as given to men by the heavenly Father that response is the God-implanted instinct of gratitude to the Creator, to the end that people should seek after God, draw near to him, and serve him with joy, and certainly not for the purpose of allowing people to feel presumptuously secure in their sins.
Thus, in this verse there is continued emphasis upon the master theme, of Romans, that of the righteousness of God, his righteous JUDGMENT being the particular aspect of it considered here. Note that this is also true of the next verse


in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Exegesis means you read out what God has put in the text not what YOU WANT to read out of the text.

Indeed. Which is why I keep arguing that you would be served better by setting aside that OSAS filter you are applying to scripture.

Look at what immediately precedes this text beginning in verse 2 "judgement...against them".

Judgment against the wicked is always the context for the call to repentance.

The whole idea in the Gospel is "salvation" and the context shows that salvation is needed.

Look at verse 3 "shalt escape the judgement of God". Look at verse 4 "despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forebearance in longsuffering".

Indeed God offers the Gospel - and the warning is against despising it - against turn away from it.

Heb 10 makes the same point.

But here is your clue that the OSAS filters are not helping you sift through the chapter -- vs 1-3 cannot be "REAL" while you claim that that vs 4-16 are fake. The texts have to all be real - both the description of the failing cases and the succeeding cases.

The same also in Matt 7 "the MANY" fail but "the FEW" succeed.

both cases are "real".

Look at the description in verse 5. God's goodness is demonstrated in FORBEARANCE OF JUDGEMENT upon those who think they are righteous but are wicked - v. 1 "Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.

Which is exactly how Matt 7 starts out "Judge not that you be not judged". Take off the filters - look at the evidence that I keep bringing up and that you keep finding the need to gloss over.

But the inclusion of such failures does not "negate" the FEW who are on the narrow way in Matt 7 any more than it negates the persevering saints of Rom 2:7.

It is IN the context of the MANY that reject the Gospel that we also have the example of the FEW who do not.


Next we have "real" perseverance of the saints - (a dozen or more texts to follow)

7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;

Next we have "real" failure of the real wicked who really reject the gospel

8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.

=============
Romans 1:14-17 is explicitly referencing the Gospel condition.

Romans 2:4 the Gospel condition of the call to repentance.

Romans 2:4-13 the Gospel result of the perseverance of the saints and the eternal reward - applied explicitly to BOTH Jews and Gentiles.

Romans 2:13-16 the case of Gentiles who are approved in the future Gospel Judgment.

Romans 2:25-29 the explicit reference to Gentiles - who are born-again, new hearts, new creations, the work of the Holy Spirit.

The details in Romans 2 that your man made traditions "need to ignore" are much more transparent to the unbiased objective reader than you appear to have imagined.

Rom 2:25-29 specifically speaks to the regenerated - new heart, new creation work of the Holyl Spirit.

so also does Rom 2:14-16 speak of that work done on the heart of the gentiles.

The "Fiction" that Romans 2 starts with "no need to repent because if you have never sinned then you are going to heaven" is flatly debunked by the opening context of the text that the Gospel "goodness and kindness " of God "LEADS you to repentance" Rom 2:4.

In the context of Gospel repentance then we have the "perseverance" of Rom 2:7 -- and eternal life mentioned there.

We have the "Gospel judgment" of Rom 2:13-16.

we notice (the Romans 2 succeeding examples) "going to heaven" in Rom 2:7, 10 and even approved of in the "Gospel judgment" in Rom 2:13-16 and in fact having their hearts changed - with the manifest fruits of obedience showing it in Rom 2:25-29.

==================

The bottom line is that you have made this wayyy too easy for me - because the chapter that you choose to reject is filled with examples of the perseverance of the saints. I have enough material in this chapter alone for pages of response as can be attested by the fact that all my "detail" has only come up to vs 7. I have more to present from Rom 2's long list of successful illustrations. It is not simply a chapter devoted to "all have sinned and fallen short".

Romans 3 is such a chapter - Romans 2 is not.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Dr. Walter]

There is a huge difference and a huge leap between laying down the principles or criteria used to judge the works of persons and proving that there are any whose works actually meet that criteria.

There is a huge difference between stating the consequences for any who pass the criteria and proving that there were some who actually do pass that criteria.

Romans 2:1-15 lay down the principles or criteria that will be used by God to judge the works of men. However, there is not one word in this entire passage that declares some will pass that criteria. NOT ONE WORD.

You quote certain verses that tell what the expectations are for those whose works pass the judgement but not one of these verses claim that any will pass. THAT IS WHOLLY ASSUMED on your part.

However, the preceding and following context makes no such assumption but demands that none will measure up according to THEIR OWN WORKS (Rom. 1:18 "hold the truth in unrighteousness" - Rom. 3:9-20).

You have to jump out of this context and go to the context of those justified BY CHRIST (Rom. 3:20-5:2) in order to prove that some will pass this criteria. However, that is my position - justification is based upon CHRIST'S WORKS rather than ours and HIS WORKS are the basis for anyone meeting the criteria of God's judgement. This is precisely why Christ can say that those who believe in him "SHALL NOT COME INTO CONDEMNATION" but have already "PASSED FROM DEATH TO LIFE (Jn 5:24). Why? Because God has applied this criteria to Christ's works IN OUR PLACE.

Our works come before the judgement seat of Christ not to determine heaven or hell but to determined REWARDS and the glory manifest in our resurrected bodies.

However, your theology has God passing DOUBLE JUDGEMENT upon the believer. First pouring out judgement upon Christ FOR US and then bringing us again into JUDGEMENT again for the same issue - heaven or hell.

Indeed. Which is why I keep arguing that you would be served better by setting aside that OSAS filter you are applying to scripture.




Judgment against the wicked is always the context for the call to repentance.

The whole idea in the Gospel is "salvation" and the context shows that salvation is needed.



Indeed God offers the Gospel - and the warning is against despising it - against turn away from it.

Heb 10 makes the same point.

But here is your clue that the OSAS filters are not helping you sift through the chapter -- vs 1-3 cannot be "REAL" while you claim that that vs 4-16 are fake. The texts have to all be real - both the description of the failing cases and the succeeding cases.

The same also in Matt 7 "the MANY" fail but "the FEW" succeed.

both cases are "real".




Which is exactly how Matt 7 starts out "Judge not that you be not judged". Take off the filters - look at the evidence that I keep bringing up and that you keep finding the need to gloss over.

But the inclusion of such failures does not "negate" the FEW who are on the narrow way in Matt 7 any more than it negates the persevering saints of Rom 2:7.

It is IN the context of the MANY that reject the Gospel that we also have the example of the FEW who do not.


Next we have "real" perseverance of the saints - (a dozen or more texts to follow)

7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;

Next we have "real" failure of the real wicked who really reject the gospel

8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.

=============
Romans 1:14-17 is explicitly referencing the Gospel condition.

Romans 2:4 the Gospel condition of the call to repentance.

Romans 2:4-13 the Gospel result of the perseverance of the saints and the eternal reward - applied explicitly to BOTH Jews and Gentiles.

Romans 2:13-16 the case of Gentiles who are approved in the future Gospel Judgment.

Romans 2:25-29 the explicit reference to Gentiles - who are born-again, new hearts, new creations, the work of the Holy Spirit.

The details in Romans 2 that your man made traditions "need to ignore" are much more transparent to the unbiased objective reader than you appear to have imagined.

Rom 2:25-29 specifically speaks to the regenerated - new heart, new creation work of the Holyl Spirit.

so also does Rom 2:14-16 speak of that work done on the heart of the gentiles.

The "Fiction" that Romans 2 starts with "no need to repent because if you have never sinned then you are going to heaven" is flatly debunked by the opening context of the text that the Gospel "goodness and kindness " of God "LEADS you to repentance" Rom 2:4.

In the context of Gospel repentance then we have the "perseverance" of Rom 2:7 -- and eternal life mentioned there.

We have the "Gospel judgment" of Rom 2:13-16.

we notice (the Romans 2 succeeding examples) "going to heaven" in Rom 2:7, 10 and even approved of in the "Gospel judgment" in Rom 2:13-16 and in fact having their hearts changed - with the manifest fruits of obedience showing it in Rom 2:25-29.

==================

The bottom line is that you have made this wayyy too easy for me - because the chapter that you choose to reject is filled with examples of the perseverance of the saints. I have enough material in this chapter alone for pages of response as can be attested by the fact that all my "detail" has only come up to vs 7. I have more to present from Rom 2's long list of successful illustrations. It is not simply a chapter devoted to "all have sinned and fallen short".

Romans 3 is such a chapter - Romans 2 is not.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[steaver]

There is a huge difference and a huge leap between laying down the principles or criteria used to judge the works of persons and proving that there are any whose works actually meet that criteria.

There is a huge difference between stating the consequences for any who pass the criteria and proving that there were some who actually do pass that criteria.

Romans 2:1-15 lay down the principles or criteria that will be used by God to judge the works of men. However, there is not one word in this entire passage that declares some will pass that criteria. NOT ONE WORD.

You quote certain verses that tell what the expectations are for those whose works pass the judgement but not one of these verses claim that any will pass. THAT IS WHOLLY ASSUMED on your part.

However, the preceding and following context makes no such assumption but demands that none will measure up according to THEIR OWN WORKS (Rom. 1:18 "hold the truth in unrighteousness" - Rom. 3:9-20).

You have to jump out of this context and go to the context of those justified BY CHRIST (Rom. 3:20-5:2) in order to prove that some will pass this criteria. However, that is my position - justification is based upon CHRIST'S WORKS rather than ours and HIS WORKS are the basis for anyone meeting the criteria of God's judgement. This is precisely why Christ can say that those who believe in him "SHALL NOT COME INTO CONDEMNATION" but have already "PASSED FROM DEATH TO LIFE (Jn 5:24). Why? Because God has applied this criteria to Christ's works IN OUR PLACE.

Our works come before the judgement seat of Christ not to determine heaven or hell but to determined REWARDS and the glory manifest in our resurrected bodies.

However, your theology has God passing DOUBLE JUDGEMENT upon the believer. First pouring out judgement upon Christ FOR US and then bringing us again into JUDGEMENT again for the same issue - heaven or hell.

You are precisely right.

Bob has a habbit of crying "the text does not say" when it goes against EGW doctrine and then adding assumptions when He wants it to support EGW doctrine.

Another false prophet stated this type of perverted gospel like this...

• “Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ"

 

[Jedi Knight]

However, your theology has God passing DOUBLE JUDGEMENT upon the believer. First pouring out judgement upon Christ FOR US and then bringing us again into JUDGEMENT again for the same issue - heaven or hell.

Well put Dr.Walter,this is the whole of the argument. Ironic for Bob to suggest "put aside your OSAS filter" and has DOUBLE VISION himself! :type: