Who teaches that God will cast out those who come to him? Who thinks that Christ will not welcome those who come to him??
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- Thread starter Primitive Baptist
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So, then, how do you reconcile your statement to the Bible's
Believing requires faith, faith requires life, and the Bible teaches unregenerated men are dead.
Believing is good works in the sight of God, yet the verses above says that even before God's people were capable of doing the good works that God approves of, Christ already died for them.
Ray Berrian
New Member
pinoybaptist,
My statement was, 'One must hear the truth, believe on Him, before God enters the life.'
Romans 5:6 indicates that '. . . when we were without strength, Christ died for the ungodly.'
My first impression is that He died for the entire body of humanity; no strings attached.
Romans 5:8 says, 'God commended His love toward us while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.' John 3:16 also tells of His great love for humankind. Yes, were are all sinners because we Fell because of Adam's sin. This verse points to the fact of God's perfect plan for those in need of His saving grace and hope of eternal life. When He finds us/or we find Him we are reconciled to God and at the same time baptized into the Holy Spirit
My statement was, 'One must hear the truth, believe on Him, before God enters the life.'
Romans 5:6 indicates that '. . . when we were without strength, Christ died for the ungodly.'
My first impression is that He died for the entire body of humanity; no strings attached.
Romans 5:8 says, 'God commended His love toward us while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.' John 3:16 also tells of His great love for humankind. Yes, were are all sinners because we Fell because of Adam's sin. This verse points to the fact of God's perfect plan for those in need of His saving grace and hope of eternal life. When He finds us/or we find Him we are reconciled to God and at the same time baptized into the Holy Spirit
Ray Berrian
New Member
When a person receives Christ as Savior, it is no suprise to the Triune Godhead. He knew they would come to Him, before the foundation of the world was even created. [Romans 8:29] Foreknowledge is the Greek word from which we get our word, 'prognosis.' God is the Almighty Prognosticator who knows what our decision about salvation will be before we were even born.
A medical doctor makes a prognosis of people's illness, but at least 'good old doc' doesn't inflict the disease on the patient.
A medical doctor makes a prognosis of people's illness, but at least 'good old doc' doesn't inflict the disease on the patient.
Terry_Herrington
New Member
My experience has shown me that, many times, prior things we have been taught, influence our interperation of the Bible. Here are six questions which I find difficult to answer from the calvinistic prospective: 
1. Why preach “repent or perish” when the non-elect can’t repent and the elect can’t perish?
2. How can God hold the non-elect responsible for “not believing” and damn them for it, when he deliberately did not give them the faith to enable them to believe in the first place?
3. If Christ has already made an efficacious atonement for the sins of an elect person, is that elect person actually lost during the period prior to their being saved?
4. During the period before an elect person gets saved, how are they condemned already (for not believing} when their unbelief (which is a sin) has already been paid for by Christ on the cross?
5. If repentence is a gift only given to the elect, what did Jesus mean when He said that some of the people in hell would have repented if they had had the same opportunity as the people to whom He preached?
6. Why does the Spirit of God strive and convict some sinners who later prove, by dying and going to hell, that they were the non-elect? What is the purpose of such movings of the Spirit?
1. Why preach “repent or perish” when the non-elect can’t repent and the elect can’t perish?
2. How can God hold the non-elect responsible for “not believing” and damn them for it, when he deliberately did not give them the faith to enable them to believe in the first place?
3. If Christ has already made an efficacious atonement for the sins of an elect person, is that elect person actually lost during the period prior to their being saved?
4. During the period before an elect person gets saved, how are they condemned already (for not believing} when their unbelief (which is a sin) has already been paid for by Christ on the cross?
5. If repentence is a gift only given to the elect, what did Jesus mean when He said that some of the people in hell would have repented if they had had the same opportunity as the people to whom He preached?
6. Why does the Spirit of God strive and convict some sinners who later prove, by dying and going to hell, that they were the non-elect? What is the purpose of such movings of the Spirit?
KenH
Well-Known Member
Ray,
In the Romans chapter 8, God is said to foreknow certain people, not the actions of certain people.
Ken
A Spurgeonite
www.spurgeon.org
In the Romans chapter 8, God is said to foreknow certain people, not the actions of certain people.
Ken
A Spurgeonite
www.spurgeon.org
KenH
Well-Known Member
Terry,
1. God told His people to do so. It adds to their list of sins for which those lost are responsible.
2. Because no one is stopping them from not repenting and believing but themselves.
3. In human time, yes. From the perspective of eternity in which God lives, no. Their salvation was a "done deal" even before time as we know it began.
4. They have not yet been born from above and repented and believed. They, from their perspective in time, have not gained possession of the salvation that Christ Jesus purchased for them. They are still dead in sin until regeneration. Anyone not regenerated is condemned.
5. Places like, for example, Sodom would have repented and not been destroyed as they were, if they had seen Christ's ministry. That is not to say that any of them would have been saved, but that physical destruction would not have occurred in the days of Lot. This is similar to what happened at Nineveh when Jonah preached. They repented by putting on sackcloth and by fasting but that is not to say that they were saved eternally, but saved from the physical destruction that they were warned about.
6. What do you mean by conviction? If you mean they hear the gospel physically with their ears and learn facts, that is not sufficient for salvation. Spiritual ears are needed to respond to the gospel - and these the Holy Spirit graciously gives to the elect. There are tares among the wheat who follow along for social reasons, cultural reasons, etc., but who have not been born again.
Ken
A Spurgeonite
www.spurgeon.org
[ August 09, 2002, 07:00 PM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]
1. God told His people to do so. It adds to their list of sins for which those lost are responsible.
2. Because no one is stopping them from not repenting and believing but themselves.
3. In human time, yes. From the perspective of eternity in which God lives, no. Their salvation was a "done deal" even before time as we know it began.
4. They have not yet been born from above and repented and believed. They, from their perspective in time, have not gained possession of the salvation that Christ Jesus purchased for them. They are still dead in sin until regeneration. Anyone not regenerated is condemned.
5. Places like, for example, Sodom would have repented and not been destroyed as they were, if they had seen Christ's ministry. That is not to say that any of them would have been saved, but that physical destruction would not have occurred in the days of Lot. This is similar to what happened at Nineveh when Jonah preached. They repented by putting on sackcloth and by fasting but that is not to say that they were saved eternally, but saved from the physical destruction that they were warned about.
6. What do you mean by conviction? If you mean they hear the gospel physically with their ears and learn facts, that is not sufficient for salvation. Spiritual ears are needed to respond to the gospel - and these the Holy Spirit graciously gives to the elect. There are tares among the wheat who follow along for social reasons, cultural reasons, etc., but who have not been born again.
Ken
A Spurgeonite
www.spurgeon.org
[ August 09, 2002, 07:00 PM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]
Terry_Herrington
New Member
Ken Hamilton,
Weak responses, especially to number 5. I still believe, like the good old KJV says, "...And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." Revelation 22:17
Maybe I'm confused, Do you believe that certain people are destined to hell and others are destined to heaven and that they have no input. Has God arbitrarily decided by random who will believe or is it based on anything other than God's own choices?
If I hadn't heard of Calvinism I would never have dreamed of such a doctrine. When I went forward to receive Christ no one said anything about me being in the elect. I simply heard the Gospel and believed it.
"Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light." Matthew 11:28-30
I decided to trust Jesus; my burden was very heavy. Praise God!
Weak responses, especially to number 5. I still believe, like the good old KJV says, "...And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." Revelation 22:17
Maybe I'm confused, Do you believe that certain people are destined to hell and others are destined to heaven and that they have no input. Has God arbitrarily decided by random who will believe or is it based on anything other than God's own choices?
If I hadn't heard of Calvinism I would never have dreamed of such a doctrine. When I went forward to receive Christ no one said anything about me being in the elect. I simply heard the Gospel and believed it.
"Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light." Matthew 11:28-30
I decided to trust Jesus; my burden was very heavy. Praise God!
We all like that and we all believe it. As I pointed out in another thread, this is not the issue. Whoesoever will, may come and take. The "will" is at issue. Those who do not come, will not come. They willfully choose not to come. Remember "weakness" of answers is not determined by what you heard or didn't hear. It is determined by conformity to Scripture. It might be well for you to study through some of these issues from a calvinist perspective comparing Scripture with Scripture.
KenH
Well-Known Member
If you think my responses are weak, no offense is taken. I can only answer as God gives me the ability. I try the best as I can in this jar of clay in which I live. Personally, I think my answer to number 5 is my best response as I borrowed it from a commentary by John Gill.
We all come into the world destined for hell. Only by God's grace is anyone saved by His intervening grace, by His gracious choice.
Ken
A Spurgeonite
www.spurgeon.org
[ August 10, 2002, 10:48 AM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]
IT IS NOT DEATH TO DIE
That is the title of a biography of Hudson Taylor, a Christian missionary of the 19th century who had a heart for the Chinese people. He was eventually deserted by all he knew, except God. And in the front of the biography (by Jim Cromarty) is copied Taylor's words written when he was bedridden and alone. They are powerful, comforting words of faith. Eat the meat of it and spit out the bones:
"If God has called you to be really like Jesus He will draw you into a life of crucifixion and humility, and put upon you such demands of obedience, that you will not be able to follow other people, or measure yourself by other Christians, and in many ways He will seem to let other people do things which He will not let you do.
Other Christians and ministers who seem very religious and useful, may push themselves, pull wires, and work schemes to carry out their plans,
but you cannot do it, and if you attempt it, you will meet with such failure and rebuke from the Lord as to make you sorely penitent.
Others may boast of themselves, of their work, of their successes, of their writings, but the Holy Spirit will not allow you to do any such
thing, and if you begin it, He will lead you into some deep mortification that will make you despise yourself and all your good works.
Others may be allowed to succeed in making money, or may have a legacy left to them, but it is likely God will keep you poor, because He wants you to have something far better than gold, namely, a helpless dependence upon Him, that He may have the privilege of supplying your needs day by day out of an unseen treasury.
The Lord may let others be honored and put forward, and keep you hidden in obscurity, because He wants to produce some choice fragrant fruit for His coming glory, which can only be produced in the shade. He may let others be great, but keep you small. He may let others do a work for Him and get the credit for it, but He will make you work and toil on without knowing how much you are doing; and then to make your work still more precious He may let others get credit for the work which you have done, and thus make YOUR REWARD TEN TIMES GREATER WHEN JESUS COMES.
The Holy Spirit will put a strict watch over you, with a jealous love, and will rebuke you for little words and feelings or for wasting your time, which other Christians never feel distressed over. So make up your mind that God is an Infinitely Sovereign Being, and has a right to do as He pleases with His own. He may not explain to you a thousand things which
puzzle your reason in His dealings with you, but if you absolutely sell yourself to be His love slave, He will wrap you up in Jealous Love, and
bestow upon you many blessings which come only to those who are in the inner circle.
Settle it forever, then that you are to DEAL DIRECTLY WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT, and that He is to have the privilege of tying your tongue, or
chaining your hand, or closing your eyes, in ways that He does not seem to use with others. Now, when you are so possessed with the living God that you are, in your secret heart, pleased and delighted over this PECULIAR, PERSONAL, PRIVATE, JEALOUS GUARDIANSHIP AND MANAGEMENT OF THE HOLY SPIRIT OVER YOUR LIFE, then you will have found the vestibule of Heaven."
Let all things be done unto edifying."
I Corinthians 14:26b
That is the title of a biography of Hudson Taylor, a Christian missionary of the 19th century who had a heart for the Chinese people. He was eventually deserted by all he knew, except God. And in the front of the biography (by Jim Cromarty) is copied Taylor's words written when he was bedridden and alone. They are powerful, comforting words of faith. Eat the meat of it and spit out the bones:
"If God has called you to be really like Jesus He will draw you into a life of crucifixion and humility, and put upon you such demands of obedience, that you will not be able to follow other people, or measure yourself by other Christians, and in many ways He will seem to let other people do things which He will not let you do.
Other Christians and ministers who seem very religious and useful, may push themselves, pull wires, and work schemes to carry out their plans,
but you cannot do it, and if you attempt it, you will meet with such failure and rebuke from the Lord as to make you sorely penitent.
Others may boast of themselves, of their work, of their successes, of their writings, but the Holy Spirit will not allow you to do any such
thing, and if you begin it, He will lead you into some deep mortification that will make you despise yourself and all your good works.
Others may be allowed to succeed in making money, or may have a legacy left to them, but it is likely God will keep you poor, because He wants you to have something far better than gold, namely, a helpless dependence upon Him, that He may have the privilege of supplying your needs day by day out of an unseen treasury.
The Lord may let others be honored and put forward, and keep you hidden in obscurity, because He wants to produce some choice fragrant fruit for His coming glory, which can only be produced in the shade. He may let others be great, but keep you small. He may let others do a work for Him and get the credit for it, but He will make you work and toil on without knowing how much you are doing; and then to make your work still more precious He may let others get credit for the work which you have done, and thus make YOUR REWARD TEN TIMES GREATER WHEN JESUS COMES.
The Holy Spirit will put a strict watch over you, with a jealous love, and will rebuke you for little words and feelings or for wasting your time, which other Christians never feel distressed over. So make up your mind that God is an Infinitely Sovereign Being, and has a right to do as He pleases with His own. He may not explain to you a thousand things which
puzzle your reason in His dealings with you, but if you absolutely sell yourself to be His love slave, He will wrap you up in Jealous Love, and
bestow upon you many blessings which come only to those who are in the inner circle.
Settle it forever, then that you are to DEAL DIRECTLY WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT, and that He is to have the privilege of tying your tongue, or
chaining your hand, or closing your eyes, in ways that He does not seem to use with others. Now, when you are so possessed with the living God that you are, in your secret heart, pleased and delighted over this PECULIAR, PERSONAL, PRIVATE, JEALOUS GUARDIANSHIP AND MANAGEMENT OF THE HOLY SPIRIT OVER YOUR LIFE, then you will have found the vestibule of Heaven."
Let all things be done unto edifying."
I Corinthians 14:26b
Hello, Terry:Originally posted by Terry Herrington:
Ken Hamilton,
Weak responses, especially to number 5. I still believe, like the good old KJV says, "...And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." Revelation 22:17
Maybe I'm confused, Do you believe that certain people are destined to hell and others are destined to heaven and that they have no input. Has God arbitrarily decided by random who will believe or is it based on anything other than God's own choices?
If I hadn't heard of Calvinism I would never have dreamed of such a doctrine. When I went forward to receive Christ no one said anything about me being in the elect. I simply heard the Gospel and believed it.
"Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light." Matthew 11:28-30
I decided to trust Jesus; my burden was very heavy. Praise God!
Hope Ken doesn't mind me coming in.
To most who seem to think that everytime the Bible mentions 'salvation' it refers to eternal salvation with regards to the soul, #5 do appear to be a weak reply.
But the Bible, also speaks of temporal salvation, and indeed, even the heathen can avail of this temporal salvation.
For example, those who are not children of God will find that exhortations in Proverbs when applied practically to their own lives result in a life which, though not God-centered, are morally upright.
God is never arbitrary in any of His actions.
The Bible says He inhabits eternity and is omnipresent, not only in the time, date, year and century that we are in. He is in the future, was in the past, and is in the present.
He created man and knew man would eventually become a fallen creature because man will believe the devil's lie.
Many say and ask that if God knew this, then what was the point ?
I don't know the answer, neither do any of our Calvinistic and Electionist brethren here, and I am sure neither does Calvin, or Gill, or Newton, or Pink.
Perhaps the answer lies in God's own statement to Adam: " dust thou art..." and perhaps we can glimpse an answer in Paul's discourse on the resurrection in 1st Corinthians when he speaks of the natures of the first Adam and the second Adam.
The fact is that God did not intervene with Adam, and when He did not, Adam fell to the pull of dust
in him, and so did all of his posterity who inherited his disobedient nature.
Still some argue that in electing some to salvation and intervening after Adam in that He quickens the dead nature so the dead can come to life and come to Him who is the Life He makes man a robot.
But, I think that if He had intervened from the beginning with Adam, then He would have a humanity who are robots.
The point is that having disobeyed and produced a fallen race as a result of wilfull and conscious disobedience, God is under no obligation to save anyone anymore, yet He did and does, and this time He works His will in those He had set His eyes on from eternity past. Not only does He work His will on them, He Himself became their Savior.
When I came forward to receive Christ into my life (or so I thought I was doing the receiving), I was an atheist and had every intention of engaging the pastor in a debate in front of his congregation in a place whose dialect I did not speak and understood barely.
Yet, the Holy Spirit stopped my mouth and opened my ears because I understood perfectly what the pastor was preaching about in his dialect, rapid-fire.
Didn't know anything about election, either.
But God is a God of revelation. The Bible says "a line here, a line there, a precept here, a precept there". In His time and place, He brought me face to face with the true Doctrine of Grace.
It always makes me sad to read people say, I decided...I received...I came..
The truth is, the I in us would never come to Christ or desire the Bread of Life or feel
a need for the Water of Life, or the want to be shepherded by the True Shepherd, if God does not work His will on I .
To God be all glory and power and dominion, forever and ever.
GH,
I cannot determine the relevance of your above post to this discussion. I invite you to change it to make it relevant. We try to keep the discussions somewhat on topic (though they usually digress to some degree). Please explain the relevance of your above post or let me know so that we can delete it from this thread.
Thanks,
Moderator.
I cannot determine the relevance of your above post to this discussion. I invite you to change it to make it relevant. We try to keep the discussions somewhat on topic (though they usually digress to some degree). Please explain the relevance of your above post or let me know so that we can delete it from this thread.
Thanks,
Moderator.
Hi Pastor,
It's just my take on death that I'm trying to inject into the conversation. There are several different kinds of death spoken of in scripture and what I always try to see is the resurrection LIFE that comes from these deaths.
Paul said death is swallowed up by LIFE and Death where is thy sting? I guess I'm stuck there. Looking for Life in the scriptures.
I am sorry if I caused any confusion talking about life in the midst of death. That's why I said eat the meat of it and spit out the bones.
I hope this satisfactorily explains my post.
In His Life, Diane
It's just my take on death that I'm trying to inject into the conversation. There are several different kinds of death spoken of in scripture and what I always try to see is the resurrection LIFE that comes from these deaths.
Paul said death is swallowed up by LIFE and Death where is thy sting? I guess I'm stuck there. Looking for Life in the scriptures.
I am sorry if I caused any confusion talking about life in the midst of death. That's why I said eat the meat of it and spit out the bones.
I hope this satisfactorily explains my post.
In His Life, Diane
John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me... which btw can NEVER be... bought, purchased, taken, acquired, gotten, obtained, procured, secured, gained, worked, earned or won by anything you have done... but were ransomed, freed, restored, atoned, retrieved, rescued, fulfilled and redeemed in the scarifice of Jesus Christ... Gods dear Son... Any questions?... Brother Glen
[ August 10, 2002, 04:49 PM: Message edited by: tyndale1946 ]
[ August 10, 2002, 04:49 PM: Message edited by: tyndale1946 ]
Ray Berrian
New Member
Terry Herrington,
Like some of the brethren have said, it would be good for you to read of these Calvinistics beliefs.
With all due respect to our Calvinistic brethren, you will find that no one believed in their views before the Catholic, Saint Augustine. {354-430 A.D.} This man never took one course in Biblical Greek and depended on the Catholic translations for his understanding. Latin was his language of choice. Augustine's views were developed and grounded in his understanding of Aristotle and Plato's views of a harsh, impersonal God.
If I had not returned for my doctoral program and dissertation, I would never have known the background as to where the Five Points of Calvinism made their entrance into the Christian faith. John Calvin, and his "Calvin's Institutes" systematized the views of his Catholic brother in the faith, the noteworthy Augustine.
If you have or do in the future read the Church Fathers, men living directly after the Apostles death, you will never notice any developmental theology in those days. They were interested in loving God and understanding His truth.
Some of us on the board believe that our views are closer to Biblical exposition. Yes, Christ did die for everyone's salvation. Those who truly believe in Jesus, as you do, have become one of His elect people of God. We also believe that God knew that you would yield your life to Him even before He created the world and universe. If He did not know that you would come to Him, He would not be the true God. We defend the view that if God only love His hand chosen people it would be a violation of His attribute of Divine love. There is no partiality with Almighty God. [Acts 17:30b; Romans 2:11; and Deuteronomy 10:17g] ( . . . to mention only three Scriptural background checks)
We who are the heirs of the promise, know the 'immutability of His counsel' and are more assured because of this that it is 'impossible for God to lie' [Hebrews 6:17-18] we therefore, also do know that His love extends to everyone.
Ray Berrian, Th.D.
Like some of the brethren have said, it would be good for you to read of these Calvinistics beliefs.
With all due respect to our Calvinistic brethren, you will find that no one believed in their views before the Catholic, Saint Augustine. {354-430 A.D.} This man never took one course in Biblical Greek and depended on the Catholic translations for his understanding. Latin was his language of choice. Augustine's views were developed and grounded in his understanding of Aristotle and Plato's views of a harsh, impersonal God.
If I had not returned for my doctoral program and dissertation, I would never have known the background as to where the Five Points of Calvinism made their entrance into the Christian faith. John Calvin, and his "Calvin's Institutes" systematized the views of his Catholic brother in the faith, the noteworthy Augustine.
If you have or do in the future read the Church Fathers, men living directly after the Apostles death, you will never notice any developmental theology in those days. They were interested in loving God and understanding His truth.
Some of us on the board believe that our views are closer to Biblical exposition. Yes, Christ did die for everyone's salvation. Those who truly believe in Jesus, as you do, have become one of His elect people of God. We also believe that God knew that you would yield your life to Him even before He created the world and universe. If He did not know that you would come to Him, He would not be the true God. We defend the view that if God only love His hand chosen people it would be a violation of His attribute of Divine love. There is no partiality with Almighty God. [Acts 17:30b; Romans 2:11; and Deuteronomy 10:17g] ( . . . to mention only three Scriptural background checks)
We who are the heirs of the promise, know the 'immutability of His counsel' and are more assured because of this that it is 'impossible for God to lie' [Hebrews 6:17-18] we therefore, also do know that His love extends to everyone.
Ray Berrian, Th.D.
Terry_Herrington
New Member
Thank you all for the encouraging me to devote more study in understanding the calvinistic viewpoint. I admit, I have not dedicated myself to exploring all the finer points to this system of belief; however, I suspect that, in eternity, we will find out that none of us understands the mystery of our salvation as well as we think we do. Surely, we can all agree that the Lord Jesus paid the price to redeem us from our sin. Regardless of all the alternate and varying doctrines concerning these important issues it is comforting to know that it all is under His control. Praise the Lord!
Did you ever hear of Paul or Jesus?? How about Peter??
Ray Berrian
New Member
Pastor Larry,
Cute!
Apparently, you have no defense for the fact that your view makes God the One who loves some and favors them at the expense of the majority.
God's love is unfeigned and His Divine nature is without impediment.
Cute!
Apparently, you have no defense for the fact that your view makes God the One who loves some and favors them at the expense of the majority.
God's love is unfeigned and His Divine nature is without impediment.