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- Thread starter Primitive Baptist
- Start date
Actually no. We believe that Christ's death was sufficient for all without exception. We believe it was efficient only for the elect. We believe the death of Christ accomplished something (propitiation) not just made it possible. We hence believe that if Christ'd death was efficient for all for whom he died, then it must saved all for whom he died.
Scripture never presents the death of Christ as a potential saving death but rather as an actual saving death. It paid the penalty for sin, not simply made possible a payment.
As do all Calvinists, including myself. This is exactly what I said above with the sufficient/efficient distinction.
I did not have time yesterday and do not have time now. Perhaps later I will have time to summarize it. I gave you the resources, believing that if you really want to know you will look it up. I realize others disagree. If you read these men, they will make their case and then you can compare. If you don't read them, you will go on not knowing. I would encourage everyone here not to expect others to do the work. If you ask a question that you are serious about getting answered, then be willing to use the resources given to find out.
Ray Berrian
New Member
Your expression, "A Double Penalty" for sin has been explained in my August 23 5:27 p.m. post. It is post 723.
God provided a provision for all Israelites to save their firstborn. If they placed blood over the doorpost, their first born was saved from death. If they chose to not believe God's truth and ways, their firstborn would die.
By the same token, Christ has provided an atonement for every human being. [I Timothy 2:4 & 6] If they neglect the blood of the Cross, [John 3:18b] they die spiritually and receive the 'second death.' [Revelation 22:14] If they believe in Him [John 3:16] they have everlasting life. [I John 5:13]
As much as God desires that sinners get saved, nothing is lost to Him because His atonement has been forever rejected. The loss is obvious to those who remain in their sins and are forever lost.
God provided a provision for all Israelites to save their firstborn. If they placed blood over the doorpost, their first born was saved from death. If they chose to not believe God's truth and ways, their firstborn would die.
By the same token, Christ has provided an atonement for every human being. [I Timothy 2:4 & 6] If they neglect the blood of the Cross, [John 3:18b] they die spiritually and receive the 'second death.' [Revelation 22:14] If they believe in Him [John 3:16] they have everlasting life. [I John 5:13]
As much as God desires that sinners get saved, nothing is lost to Him because His atonement has been forever rejected. The loss is obvious to those who remain in their sins and are forever lost.
Somehow I can't help but think you totally missed the point. The blood on teh doorpost was not efficacious and was never intended to be. It was a demonstration of faith. The blood of Christ is efficacious and if it pays, then the debt is paid. It is not a possibility.
ScottEmerson
Active Member
Scripture?
Ray Berrian
New Member
Pastor Larry,
I was merely giving this O.T. illustration as to how a physical escape from death was provided for everyone, but only those who placed the blood over the door-post found continued physical life.
The same is true of His suffering and death for every human being. Eternal salvation is provided for everyone, [Hebrews 2:9d] but only those who have faith in Jesus have the blood applied to their lives. Only those who mix faith with the hearing of the plan of salvation get saved by Christ. [Hebrews 4:20]
We all know that the O.T. experience of the 'first born' had nothing to do with everlasting salvation.
Why 'did God taste death for every person?' [Hebrews 2:9d] answer three lines down . . .
Because 'He wishes all men to be saved . . . ' [I Timothy 2:4a] Christ's death is efficacious for every living, breathing human being.
I was merely giving this O.T. illustration as to how a physical escape from death was provided for everyone, but only those who placed the blood over the door-post found continued physical life.
The same is true of His suffering and death for every human being. Eternal salvation is provided for everyone, [Hebrews 2:9d] but only those who have faith in Jesus have the blood applied to their lives. Only those who mix faith with the hearing of the plan of salvation get saved by Christ. [Hebrews 4:20]
We all know that the O.T. experience of the 'first born' had nothing to do with everlasting salvation.
Why 'did God taste death for every person?' [Hebrews 2:9d] answer three lines down . . .
Because 'He wishes all men to be saved . . . ' [I Timothy 2:4a] Christ's death is efficacious for every living, breathing human being.
Primitive Baptist
New Member
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for EVERY MAN.
For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing MANY SONS
unto glory, to make the captain of THEIR
salvation perfect through sufferings. For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them BRETHREN, Saying, I will declare they name unto my BRETHREN, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee. And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and
THE CHILDREN WHICH GOD HATH GIVEN ME. Forasmuch then as the CHILDREN are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; And DELIVER THEM who through fear of death were all THEIR lifetime subject to bondage. For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him THE SEED OF ABRAHAM. Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his BRETHREN, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people." (Heb. 2:9-17)
For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing MANY SONS
unto glory, to make the captain of THEIR
salvation perfect through sufferings. For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them BRETHREN, Saying, I will declare they name unto my BRETHREN, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee. And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and
THE CHILDREN WHICH GOD HATH GIVEN ME. Forasmuch then as the CHILDREN are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; And DELIVER THEM who through fear of death were all THEIR lifetime subject to bondage. For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him THE SEED OF ABRAHAM. Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his BRETHREN, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people." (Heb. 2:9-17)
Terry_Herrington
New Member
Finally something a Primitive Baptist says that I can agree with.
"But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for EVERY MAN." Hebrews 2:9
Not, "taste death for every elected man."
"But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for EVERY MAN." Hebrews 2:9
Not, "taste death for every elected man."
Ray Berrian
New Member
' . . . tasting death for every man . . . ' is not a tenant of belief coming out of Reformation Theology. But then a lot of us never thought that brethren fresh out of Catholocism had all the answers. Just before Luther's conversion he was still crawling up the church steps trying to gain merit and favor with God.
This is why we are to depend on the teaching ministry of the Holy Spirit, plus continual study in the Word of God.
This is why we are to depend on the teaching ministry of the Holy Spirit, plus continual study in the Word of God.
KenH
Well-Known Member
Do you non-Calvinists ever read a verse within the context in which it is written? 
Perhaps ya'll should continue reading after Hebrews 2:9.
(Heb 2:10-18 NKJV) For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. {11} For both He who sanctifies and those who are being sanctified are all of one, for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren, {12} saying: "I will declare Your name to My brethren; In the midst of the assembly I will sing praise to You." {13} And again: "I will put My trust in Him." And again: "Here am I and the children whom God has given Me." {14} Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, {15} and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. {16} For indeed He does not give aid to angels, but He does give aid to the seed of Abraham. {17} Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. {18} For in that He Himself has suffered, being tempted, He is able to aid those who are tempted.
(Heb 3:1-2 NKJV) Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our confession, Christ Jesus, {2} who was faithful to Him who appointed Him, as Moses also was faithful in all His house.
Ken
A Spurgeonite
[ August 29, 2002, 10:07 PM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]
Perhaps ya'll should continue reading after Hebrews 2:9.(Heb 2:10-18 NKJV) For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. {11} For both He who sanctifies and those who are being sanctified are all of one, for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren, {12} saying: "I will declare Your name to My brethren; In the midst of the assembly I will sing praise to You." {13} And again: "I will put My trust in Him." And again: "Here am I and the children whom God has given Me." {14} Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, {15} and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. {16} For indeed He does not give aid to angels, but He does give aid to the seed of Abraham. {17} Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. {18} For in that He Himself has suffered, being tempted, He is able to aid those who are tempted.
(Heb 3:1-2 NKJV) Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our confession, Christ Jesus, {2} who was faithful to Him who appointed Him, as Moses also was faithful in all His house.
Ken
A Spurgeonite
[ August 29, 2002, 10:07 PM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]
Terry_Herrington
New Member
Why is it hard to understand that the "children God has given" and the "brethern" and the "sons" are people who have responded to the grace that God offers in the cross of Christ?Originally posted by Ken Hamilton:
Do you non-Calvinists ever read a verse within the context in which it is written?
(Heb 2:10-18 NKJV) For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. {11} For both He who sanctifies and those who are being sanctified are all of one, for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren, {12} saying: "I will declare Your name to My brethren; In the midst of the assembly I will sing praise to You." {13} And again: "I will put My trust in Him." And again: "Here am I and the children whom God has given Me." {14} Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, {15} and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. {16} For indeed He does not give aid to angels, but He does give aid to the seed of Abraham. {17} Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. {18} For in that He Himself has suffered, being tempted, He is able to aid those who are tempted.
(Heb 3:1-2 NKJV) Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our confession, Christ Jesus, {2} who was faithful to Him who appointed Him, as Moses also was faithful in all His house.
Ken
A Spurgeonite
I have been a christian for over 30 years. I was saved in a baptist church and have attended several baptist churches during my christian lifetime. None of the pastors I have sat under believed in calvinist doctrine. All of these fine christian men have preached that "whosoever will" can come to Christ. I will admit that I do not have all the answers and I could be wrong, but it will take more than I have seen posted here to make me believe that God has chosen some to eternal damanation and that these people could not come to Christ, even if they wanted to.
I think you are mistaken on why God does not lie. It is because it is impossible for God to lie. And not because he desires not to. In speaking God brings into creation the thing spoken. Therefore if God said that Mount Everest is only ten feet tall, an obvious lie in our minds.... Guess what..... Mount Everest would be only ten feet tall...... His word is truth. If God hath said it.... it is!!!!
Therefore if God has said, "My sheep hear my voice, he has just enabled the hearing of his sheep. If God has said, "No man can come unto me unless it were given of my Father....." then only those given of the father will come to him. His word prospers and accomplishes what it is sent out to do.
Primitive Baptist
New Member
Terry Herrington,
I think you misunderstood my post. Primitive Baptists are strongly Calvinistic in doctrine. Therefore, I believe the doctrine of Limited Atonement to be scriptural.
I think you misunderstood my post. Primitive Baptists are strongly Calvinistic in doctrine. Therefore, I believe the doctrine of Limited Atonement to be scriptural.
Terry_Herrington
New Member
I don't believe that, either. Man damns himself by sin and no man, no man, is prevented from coming to Christ who wants to do so.
So I guess we have some common ground.
Ken
A Spurgeonite</font>[/QUOTE]Thank you for your response, Ken. I appreciate your explanation. Really, I do not think any of us know as much as we think we do. I do not, presently, hold to the calvinistic doctrine the way I understand it; however, I am willing to let God be God and try to live by what, I think , the Scriptrue is saying. Probably there is not as much distance between our beliefs as we think.
Primitive Baptist,
Maybe I did misunderstand what you said, I don't know. I do know that I have never been in a Primitive Baptist Church and, therefore, I do not feel qualified to criticize your beliefs. I will admit that, on the surface, there is a litte difference in the order of our church services. (I used to be the church organist years ago and I understand that you do not have instruments in church?). I refuse, however, to allow these differences to separate my accepting you as a brother in Christ. Saying that, I feel it is important to stress that we all, if we are Christians, look to Jesus for our salvation. If it were not for His sacrifical death and resurrection it would not matter what we believed. We would have all eternity in hell to discuss it.
Primitive Baptist
New Member
Terry Herrington,
There is probably more differences between our beliefs than you think. I sincerely believe Arminians preach "another Jesus" (2 Cor. 11:4), and I will not fellowship with such a doctrine. I know that discussing issues on this board can sometimes be burdensome and confusing with people constantly changing the subject and the common "boo-hoos" of Arminians who cannot admit the sovereignty of God because it does not compliment their theology. I admit there are probably multitudes of the elect bound up in such systems of men, and they have the zeal of God but not according to knowledge (Rom. 10:2). Nevertheless, their persuasion cometh not of Him that calleth them (Gal. 5:8). I would be more than willing to answer any of your inquiries concerning Primitive Baptist and Calvinistic doctrine.
My E-mail address is: PrmtvBptst1832@cs.com
"But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:" (1 Pet. 3:15)
No, the Primitive Baptists do not use musical instruments in the church. What denominational church do you attend?
There is probably more differences between our beliefs than you think. I sincerely believe Arminians preach "another Jesus" (2 Cor. 11:4), and I will not fellowship with such a doctrine. I know that discussing issues on this board can sometimes be burdensome and confusing with people constantly changing the subject and the common "boo-hoos" of Arminians who cannot admit the sovereignty of God because it does not compliment their theology. I admit there are probably multitudes of the elect bound up in such systems of men, and they have the zeal of God but not according to knowledge (Rom. 10:2). Nevertheless, their persuasion cometh not of Him that calleth them (Gal. 5:8). I would be more than willing to answer any of your inquiries concerning Primitive Baptist and Calvinistic doctrine.
My E-mail address is: PrmtvBptst1832@cs.com
"But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:" (1 Pet. 3:15)
No, the Primitive Baptists do not use musical instruments in the church. What denominational church do you attend?
Terry_Herrington
New Member
Primitive Baptist,
I am not an Arminian and do not believe that a saved person can ever lose their salvation. I do, however, sincerely believe that you are sincerely wrong in your judgment of their "preaching another Jesus." I guess this is just something that we disagree on.
I am not an Arminian and do not believe that a saved person can ever lose their salvation. I do, however, sincerely believe that you are sincerely wrong in your judgment of their "preaching another Jesus." I guess this is just something that we disagree on.
Ray Berrian
New Member
Terry Harrington,
I agree with you that even Calvinists are not preaching another Jesus.
We along with many other worthy, scholarly, expositors of the truth believe that Jesus saves from sins and gives as a free gift everlasting life with Him. A few brethren do not like our views just as we do not like their Calvinistic structured beliefs centered around one human exponent of alleged truth. But, is better that they take error to Heaven with them than not make it at all. We all make Heaven because of His blessed grace. Thanks be to God!
I agree with you that even Calvinists are not preaching another Jesus.
We along with many other worthy, scholarly, expositors of the truth believe that Jesus saves from sins and gives as a free gift everlasting life with Him. A few brethren do not like our views just as we do not like their Calvinistic structured beliefs centered around one human exponent of alleged truth. But, is better that they take error to Heaven with them than not make it at all. We all make Heaven because of His blessed grace. Thanks be to God!
Terry_Herrington
New Member
Ray
This board should be called "The Calvinistic Baptist Board." (just kidding) I did not know that there were this many calvinistic baptist believers in the entire world, let alone on this one board. I find it difficult to both understand what they are saying and difficult to get them to understand what I am saying. It seems that to disagree with their doctrine automatically makes a person an arminian. I will be the first to admit that I do not understand all the complexities of reconciling God's sovereignty with man's free will. I also believe that they, the calvinists, do not understand half as much about this as they think they do. (half way kidding)
Sometimes I feel like posting here is kin to entering a war zone, and one of the most important things it to identitfy and then destroy the enemy. I spend much energy trying not to get mortally wounded. I, however, enjoy the differences of opinion. It would be a boring life if we all saw things in exactaly the same light. I will continue to listen, post and try to distinguish between the peanuts and the hulls.
This board should be called "The Calvinistic Baptist Board." (just kidding)
I did not know that there were this many calvinistic baptist believers in the entire world, let alone on this one board. I find it difficult to both understand what they are saying and difficult to get them to understand what I am saying. It seems that to disagree with their doctrine automatically makes a person an arminian. I will be the first to admit that I do not understand all the complexities of reconciling God's sovereignty with man's free will. I also believe that they, the calvinists, do not understand half as much about this as they think they do. (half way kidding)