Defining Specific Aspects of Sin

[Van]

Returning to the idea of defining "sin" such that clarity and not confusion arises from God's word, let us consider different aspects of Sin.
1) Any deviation from God's will for our thoughts and actions.
2) Any deviation where we knew beforehand such thought or action violated God's express will.
3) The just consequence imposed by God for any deviation from His will, volitional or inadvertent.

What if we used "sin" for #1, "trespass" for #2 and "forfeiture" for #3.

Thus Eve did not trespass in the likeness of Adam's trespass because she was deceived. However, Adam willingly sinned, Genesis 3:17, and so his action should be translated as "trespass."


Romans 2:12 (NASB)
For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have trespassed under the Law will be judged by that Law.

Romans 3:23
for all forfeited and fallen short of the glory of God,

Romans 5:12
Therefore, just as through one man forfeiture entered into the world, and death through forfeiture and so death spread to all mankind, because all forfeited.

Romans 5:14 (NASB)
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the violation by Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

There is no support that those who died during that period knew they were sinning. In fact, a reasonable interpretation is they did not know, as Adam did, they were going against God's will. And recall that Paul himself did not know "coveting" was sin, until he learned from the Law that it was.

And to repeat, if Eve was deceived, then she did not realize she was actually going against God's will, thus her action was not said to be a transgression.

Thus, Romans 5:14 could be better rendered as: Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not trespassed in the likeness of the violation of Adam, who is a type of Him who was come.

Note that to be "made sinners" Romans 5:19 would now read the many were made to forfeit.

 

[Van]

Oops! Here is my mistake!
Romans 5:12
Therefore, just as through one man forfeiture entered into the world, and death through forfeiture and so death spread to all mankind, because all forfeited.

Clearly Adam sinned volitionally, thus I should have translated the phrase "one man's trespass."

Technically, this verse can be found wanting also:
Romans 2:12 (NASB)
For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have trespassed under the Law will be judged by that Law.

Because if we stretch "all" to include babies that have done nothing good or bad, then "forfeited" provides a seemingly better fit, but contextually the verse is comparing those without the law to those with the law, and so "sinned" is to be preferred.

 

[Van]

Romans 5:19
For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.

Here the aspect of the penalty of sin is in view, thus "the many were made to forfeit, so also....

 

[Piper]

Returning to the idea of defining "sin" such that clarity and not confusion arises from God's word, let us consider different aspects of Sin.
1) Any deviation from God's will for our thoughts and actions.
2) Any deviation where we knew beforehand such thought or action violated God's express will.
3) The just consequence imposed by God for any deviation from His will, volitional or inadvertent.

What if we used "sin" for #1, "trespass" for #2 and "forfeiture" for #3.

Thus Eve did not trespass in the likeness of Adam's trespass because she was deceived. However, Adam willingly sinned, Genesis 3:17, and so his action should be translated as "trespass."


Romans 2:12 (NASB)
For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have trespassed under the Law will be judged by that Law.

Romans 3:23
for all forfeited and fallen short of the glory of God,

Romans 5:12
Therefore, just as through one man forfeiture entered into the world, and death through forfeiture and so death spread to all mankind, because all forfeited.

Romans 5:14 (NASB)
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the violation by Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

There is no support that those who died during that period knew they were sinning. In fact, a reasonable interpretation is they did not know, as Adam did, they were going against God's will. And recall that Paul himself did not know "coveting" was sin, until he learned from the Law that it was.

And to repeat, if Eve was deceived, then she did not realize she was actually going against God's will, thus her action was not said to be a transgression.

Thus, Romans 5:14 could be better rendered as: Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not trespassed in the likeness of the violation of Adam, who is a type of Him who was come.

Note that to be "made sinners" Romans 5:19 would now read the many were made to forfeit.

Not one Lexicon (The result of hundreds of years of scholarly study) anywhere interprets the word "αμαρτια" translated sin as "Forfeiture."

None.

Zero.

Therefore your conclusions will be incorrect.

 

[Van]

Not one Lexicon (The result of hundreds of years of scholarly study) anywhere interprets the word "αμαρτια" translated sin as "Forfeiture."

None.

Zero.

Therefore your conclusions will be incorrect.

What are the words used to describe the consequence of sin imposed by God?

Does sin result in the loss or forfeiture of life? The wages of sin is death.
Did sin result in a separation or forfeiture of being together with God? See Isaiah 59:2.

If we reject the gospel of Christ we forfeit our opportunity for salvation from God's wrath.

Some deny the lost living today but never chosen for salvation have an opportunity to be chosen for salvation, but their conclusions are incorrect.

One side offers the doctrines of futility, but Christ's gospel offers the opportunity and hope of salvation.

 

[Piper]

What are the words used to describe the consequence of sin imposed by God?

Does sin result in the loss or forfeiture of life? The wages of sin is death.
Did sin result in a separation or forfeiture of being together with God? See Isaiah 59:2.

If we reject the gospel of Christ we forfeit our opportunity for salvation from God's wrath.

Some deny the lost living today but never chosen for salvation have an opportunity to be chosen for salvation, but their conclusions are incorrect.

One side offers the doctrines of futility, but Christ's gospel offers the opportunity and hope of salvation.

You can not just make up your own definitions of Greek and Hebrew words.

amartos or hamartanw are never translated or have the meaning of forfeiture.

You're barking up a heresy tree, brother.

 

[Van]

You can not just make up your own definitions of Greek and Hebrew words.

amartos or hamartanw are never translated or have the meaning of forfeiture.

You're barking up a heresy tree, brother.

You can call me names, apparently with impunity. You can deny the consequence and penalty of sin is forfeiture of fellowship with God. And you can deny sometimes the consequence of sin, or what sin brought about is in view rather than missing the mark.

Romans 5:12 NASB
Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all mankind, because all sinned— ​

Here the Greek noun "hamartia" (G266) is translated sin (twice) and the Greek verb "hamartano" (G264) is translated as "sinned."
However we know that Adam's sin was volitional, he knew God had said not to eat of that tree, so trespass provides a better translation of the intended message for the first usage of "hamartia" in the verse. And in the second usage, clearly the consequence of sin, death, is in view, therefore forfeiture presents a superior translation choice. Ditto for the verb. as the many were made to forfeit fellowship as a consequence of Adam's sin.

You can deny this till the cows come how, but the above is an accurate and trustworthy translation. The concept of suffering loss due to sin is found several times in scripture using this and other Greek words.

 

[Piper]

You can call me names, apparently with impunity. You can deny the consequence and penalty of sin is forfeiture of fellowship with God. And you can deny sometimes the consequence of sin, or what sin brought about is in view rather than missing the mark.

Romans 5:12 NASB
Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all mankind, because all sinned— ​

Here the Greek noun "hamartia" (G266) is translated sin (twice) and the Greek verb "hamartano" (G264) is translated as "sinned."
However we know that Adam's sin was volitional, he knew God had said not to eat of that tree, so trespass provides a better translation of the intended message for the first usage of "hamartia" in the verse. And in the second usage, clearly the consequence of sin, death, is in view, therefore forfeiture presents a superior translation choice. Ditto for the verb. as the many were made to forfeit fellowship as a consequence of Adam's sin.

You can deny this till the cows come how, but the above is an accurate and trustworthy translation. The concept of suffering loss due to sin is found several times in scripture using this and other Greek words.

Yes, trespass is in the linguistic range.

Forfeit is NOT. Never. Give it up, bro.

 

[Van]

Yes, trespass is in the linguistic range.

Forfeit is NOT. Never. Give it up, bro.

When the consequence of sin is in view, forfeit is the meaning intended.

Sometimes the consequence of sin, or what sin brought about is in view rather than missing the mark.

Romans 5:12 NASB
Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all mankind, because all sinned—


Here the Greek noun "hamartia" (G266) is translated sin (twice) and the Greek verb "hamartano" (G264) is translated as "sinned."
However we know that Adam's sin was volitional, he knew God had said not to eat of that tree, so trespass provides a better translation of the intended message for the first usage of "hamartia" in the verse. And in the second usage, clearly the consequence of sin, death, is in view, therefore forfeiture presents a superior translation choice. Ditto for the verb. as the many were made to forfeit fellowship as a consequence of Adam's sin.

You can deny this till the cows come how, but the above is an accurate and trustworthy translation. The concept of suffering loss due to sin is found several times in scripture using this and other Greek words.

 

[Piper]

When the consequence of sin is in view, forfeit is the meaning intended.

Sometimes the consequence of sin, or what sin brought about is in view rather than missing the mark.

Romans 5:12 NASB
Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all mankind, because all sinned—


Here the Greek noun "hamartia" (G266) is translated sin (twice) and the Greek verb "hamartano" (G264) is translated as "sinned."
However we know that Adam's sin was volitional, he knew God had said not to eat of that tree, so trespass provides a better translation of the intended message for the first usage of "hamartia" in the verse. And in the second usage, clearly the consequence of sin, death, is in view, therefore forfeiture presents a superior translation choice. Ditto for the verb. as the many were made to forfeit fellowship as a consequence of Adam's sin.

You can deny this till the cows come how, but the above is an accurate and trustworthy translation. The concept of suffering loss due to sin is found several times in scripture using this and other Greek words.

No, it does not. You are ignorant of translation theory and guidelines.

 

[Van]

No, it does not. You are ignorant of translation theory and guidelines.

Animosity driven "taint so" posts waste readers time and hinder actual discussion of translating the correct word meaning when options offer error.

To claim "hamartia" is not used to refer to the consequence of sin, the forfeiture of fellowship, demonstrates unstudied behavior. See 1 Corinthians 15:17 where "you are still in your sins" means the consequence of your sins, what you erroneously that had been forgiven, still exists, i.e. your forfeiture of fellowship.

 

[Piper]

Animosity driven "taint so" posts waste readers time and hinder actual discussion of translating the correct word meaning when options offer error.

To claim "hamartia" is not used to refer to the consequence of sin, the forfeiture of fellowship, demonstrates unstudied behavior. See 1 Corinthians 15:17 where "you are still in your sins" means the consequence of your sins, what you erroneously that had been forgiven, still exists, i.e. your forfeiture of fellowship.

Accusing me of animosity is wrong. I am simply pointing out facts. Hamartia is never translated Forfeit or forfeiture. Never. You are the only person who translates them like that.

 

[Van]

Accusing me of animosity is wrong. I am simply pointing out facts. Hamartia is never translated Forfeit or forfeiture. Never. You are the only person who translates them like that.

Hamartia is used to refer to the consequences of sin, as I have supported, and you have ignored.
What is the consequence of sin? Forfeiture of fellowship with God, which I have supported and you have ignored.

Eternal life forfeited – When Adam and Eve were driven from the Garden, they lost access to the tree of life. God did this so they would not “eat, and live forever” (Genesis 3:22). As a consequence of Adam’s sin, all of us will face physical death (1 Corinthians 15:21-22). Besides physical death, we also stand to face “the second death, the lake of fire” (Revelation 20:14) – not because of Adam’s sin, but because of our own sin (Ezekiel 18:20; Romans 6:23). Sin causes us to forfeit our hope of eternal life.​

 

[Van]

Here is a statement from "TGC" concerning the consequence of "The Fall."

The Fall - We believe that Adam, made in the image of God, distorted that image and forfeited his original blessedness—for himself and all his progeny—by falling into sin through Satan’s temptation.​

Obviously the concept that the consequence of "Hamartia" includes "forfeiture" is widely held, even in Reformed circles.

 

[Van]

Here is my premise, that our current English translations are not perfect and can be improved, such that God's actual message is made more clear and understandable to those who study our English translations, using bible study aids written also in English.

Of course our current translations are effectual, reaching the lost and helping to lead them to Christ. But the fields are white with harvest, and more laborers are needed. Ambiguous words, having more than one meaning can in many cases be better translated by identifying contextually which of the words historic meanings is in view. Thus the effort is not to alter the message of scripture, but to actually do a better job of revealing God's intended message.

 

[Piper]

No. You are wrong. Hamartia is never translated Forfeiture. It is sin or transgression.

Your translation is unacceptable.

 

[Van]

Romans 5:12 (interpretive translation)
So then, just as trespass entered the world through one man (Adam) and therefore sin's consequential forfeiture of fellowship (spiritual separation from God) spread to all people as all forfeited fellowship..

 

[Van]

No. You are wrong. Hamartia is never translated Forfeiture. It is sin or transgression.

Your translation is unacceptable.

Denial of the obvious betrays bias. Note this poster does not deny Hamartia sometimes is used to mean forfeiture, but only that he is unaware of anyone who translates the Greek word as meaning forfeiture. Never mind that Hamartia results in forfeiture, it is wrong to so indicate.

Obviously the concept that the consequence of "Hamartia" includes "forfeiture" is widely held, even in Reformed circles.

 

[Piper]

Denial of the obvious betrays bias. Note this poster does not deny Hamartia sometimes is used to mean forfeiture, but only that he is unaware of anyone who translates the Greek word as meaning forfeiture. Never mind that Hamartia results in forfeiture, it is wrong to so indicate.

Obviously the concept that the consequence of "Hamartia" includes "forfeiture" is widely held, even in Reformed circles.

Untrue. You twist words, like one who used to be an angel but fell from his exalted place.