Featured Defining Terms (please read the first post)

I actually do not. From what I read in the Scriptures, God is Love, and God so loved the world He created. God knew very well Adam would sin if He placed that fruit in his reach, yet God placed it there anyways. Why?

 

Love is but one of God's attributes. God is also Holy. Infact, we see many times the emphasis of His holiness with the triple repetition that God is "Holy Holy Holy" which is a superlative. We are to take note of His holiness, it is of prime importance. We never see the Scriptures say God is "Love Love Love", interesting yes?

My friends were just discussing this very point today....
God, in His exhaustive foreknowledge, knew that created men would all sin. He ordained the fall of Adam accordingly, and ordained the cross of Christ, accordingly.

This is far different than believing that God made Adam sin . . not so, for Adam is clearly held accountable for his rebellion. All created men sin, because of Adam's original sin, which was no surprise to his Maker.

 

Do you really believe God hates people?

Does this sound like a God who hates people........

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!"

 

This didn't answer my question............

"God knew very well Adam would sin if He placed that fruit in his reach, yet God placed it there anyways. Why?"

It's ok to say you do not know.

 

Why not?
We do not really have an answer to that, but we do know this.
The chief end of man is to glorify God and to enjoy Him forever. I dare say that God receives maximum glory because what followed after the Fall, was the Plan of Redemption and that brings glory to God.

 

Just throwing some verses out there for you. I would be very interested to know what these verses mean, can you please enlighten me?

Psalm 26:5
I hate the assembly of evildoers,
and I will not sit with the wicked.

Romans 9:13
As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

Hosea 9:15
Every evil of theirs is in Gilgal;
there I began to hate them.
Because of the wickedness of their deeds
I will drive them out of my house.
I will love them no more;
all their princes are rebels.

Psalm 5:5-6
The boastful shall not stand before your eyes;
you hate all evildoers.
You destroy those who speak lies;
the Lord abhors the bloodthirsty and deceitful man.

Leviticus 20:23
And you shall not walk in the customs of the nation that I am driving out before you, for they did all these things, and therefore I detested them.

There are just a few. Please tell me what these mean.

 

First, let's deal with what they do not mean.

The Calvinist has fallen into the same mindset as the Jews, not understanding passages such as the ones you have posted here. The Jew, and in today's world the Calvinist, both believe God hates people, chiefly His enemies.

The Jew believes he is "special" for he is said to be "chosen", and to hell with all the rest for God hates all others. The Calvinist has no choice but to develop the same mindset because they are taught that they are "special" and "chosen" apart from all the others who God hates.

God does not hate people. Calvinist mistake God's Holy Justice as hatred towards a person, and this is due to the error of believing God has not given people the freedom to choose Him, but rather has hand picked some special ones to receive His love.

You ask for my understanding of these passages. I believe if you will follow Jesus' instructions concerning the lost you will be forced to abandon your view that God hates people, for I doubt you would believe that Jesus would instruct us to be more loving and kind than He Himself being God would be.

"Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you. That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust."

Note that to love the lost is to show that you are a child of the Father. Now, would you reconsider, does the Father hate people??

 

The Calvinist does not have an answer, for the answer does not fit into the Calvinist doctrine.

That would not be true, for not all men will enjoy God forever, and according to Calvinism it is God Himself who has determined, without freedom of choice, that not all men will enjoy Him forever.

You are correct! No fall, no glorification of Jesus Christ. God had to set Adam up to fail.

 

Do not tell me what I believe. I quoted some verses and asked YOU what YOU think they mean. Not rocket science.
You telling me what I believe is foolishness, because you really do not know what I believe. You know I am Reformed, but there are a number of nuances amongst the Reformed....so leave it to me to tell you what I believe and I am asking you what you believe about these verses.

Try me.
By the way, I never told you what *I* thought of those verses, I merely asked you what they meant. So I would like the answer to that still, since you have told me numerous times that I have not answered questions that you have posed. Then you said... It is okay if you can't answer. I will give you the same grace. It is okay if you cannot tell me what those verses mean.

I seek to follow the Scriptures. I will believe any doctrine if it can be shown to me in the Word of God, for it is my source of faith and practice.

Great verse. Answer my question first and then we shall continue.

 

You have been answered. Continue on as you feel led.........

 

I gave you an answer to that when you asked...God, in His exhaustive foreknowledge, knew that created men would all sin. He ordained the fall of Adam accordingly, and ordained the cross of Christ, accordingly. Which means...for the Plan of Redemption. He ordained it, you know that thing called His Sovereignty.

No one said that ALL men would, but that the Chief end of man is to glorify God and enjoy Him forever.

Far be it from me, some random woman on a theology forum to go against the theologians and scholars of The Westminster Shorter Catechism. You are clearly more special than I am.

BAM!!! I knew if I stuck with this theology thing long enough, I would get at least one right.

:laugh:

 

I asked you to tell me what those verses meant...not what they do not mean.

If you cannot answer then that is fine, you can concede.

 

So say you.........do you still believe God hates people?

 

:BangHead:

 

Never give up. Never surrender.

 

I told you Sister 5 solas....he sucks you in and then tells you how it is....

 

You did indeed.
It is a shame because if he actually engaged in back and forth exchanges, it could be interesting and beneficial.
What he is presently doing is just a waste of time.

 

I have given you scriptural truths many times, you just fail to agree...

??? You mean here----->"And we -- we ought to give thanks to God always for you, brethren, beloved by the Lord, that God did choose you from the beginning to salvation, in sanctification of the Spirit, and belief of the truth,"(2 Thess. 2:13 YLT)



God chose us from the beginning? The beginning of what? The world. In Ephesians 1:4 it even says before the foundation of the world.

"according as He did choose us in him before the foundation of the world, for our being holy and unblemished before Him, in love,"(Eph. 1:4 YLT)


You have this entirely backwards. We receive the effectual call of God because we were ALREADY chosen before the foundation of the world.

Then you must have either blotted out 1 Cor. 2:14, Romans 9:16, John 1:13 outta your "my bible". This crusade you have to refute "total spiritual inability", a crusade you have made foolishly, just makes you look...well...foolish...you've failed mightily at it, btw...but hang in there...:thumbs:

Boy you keep just "swinging and missing"...keep it up, sooner or later you'll hit one...maybe....

Try these verse on for size...you might need to wipe the muck off your glasses first..

"The husbands! love your own wives, as also the Christ did love the assembly, and did give himself for it," (Eph. 5:25 YLT)

"I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd his life layeth down for the sheep;" (John 10:11 YLT)

"according as the Father doth know me, and I know the Father, and my life I lay down for the sheep," (John 10:15 YLT)

We, as sinners, had a fallen nature. A nature with an inclination to sinning. God has to regenerate the sinner, thereby, giving him a new nature. Change the nature, change the will...change the will, change the nature...


BTW, if I had your "my bible", this is what I'd do to it PRONTO.....

 

I referenced 2 Thessalonians 2:13, and it says we were chosen for salvation through faith in the truth. You say I have shown you nothing.

I am not "interpreting scripture" I am just reading it. That is what it says.

I have pulled several verses out and you simply say they do not mean what they say.

I have supported what I believe from scripture.

If I have told you what you believe, perhaps I provided quotes? I have addressed Calvinism which is mistaken doctrine and shown it is mistaken from scripture.

Finally, you make the charge I do not understand Calvinism, which does not address where you claim I misrepresented it, so yet another charge without evidence.

Bottom line, 2 Thessalonians 2:13 teaches we were chosen for salvation from the beginning through faith in the truth, a conditional election during our lifetime, after we came to faith.
Totally different than the claims of Calvinism. Has any verse been presented that says we were chosen for salvation not through faith in the truth? Nope. So I get charged with not providing evidence. See how it works?

 

That's all you know how to do!!! Just disinegrate the word of God.