Defining "the law" as used in New Testament

[Dr. Walter]

In Romans 1:1-17 he is addressing saints and concludes that section by stating why he wants to come to Rome and preach the gospel and why he is not ashamed of preaching the gospel. He lists some reasons why he is not ashamed for preaching the gospel. His last reason is because the wrath of God is against those who suppress the truth they have been shown by God in nature and in themselves.

From Romans 1:18 to Romans 3:21 he provides the reason why the lost need to hear the gospel. They are digressing in sin under God's wrath - Romans 1:18-32.

They are hypocritical in their thinking. They make comparisons between themselves and those listed previously (Rom. 2:3) and beleive that they can escape judgement because they believe God's judgement is based on a sliding scale (Rom. 2:1-5).

However, Paul quickly informs them that God's judgement is based upon strict justice in keeping with the law's standard of righteousness (Rom. 2:6-11) and this is clearly spelled out in James 2:10 WHERE JAMES IS ADDRESSING BELIEVERS as well as many other places.

Paul addresses the Jews (Rom. 2:11-24) who believe the very same thing, that God's judgement is a SLIDING SCALE and because they are a Jew they will have an advantage over those described in Romans 1:18-32 and because they have the law of Moses they have a further advantage in judgement and so expect to escape judgement just as those in Romans 2:1-5.

Paul destroys the advantage theory based upon natural distinctions in verse 11. Paul destroys the advantage theory based upon HAVING Jewish law in verses 12-15. Paul destroys the advantage theory based upon KNOWING Jewish law in verses 17-24.

Paul destroys the SLIDING RULER theory as judgement of works will be according to the "truth" and "righteousness" as God's law defines it in Romans 2:5-10 and how the Gospel of Jesus Christ reveals it in the life and death of Christ in Romans 2:16.

Bob, your whole basis for justification is totally dependent upon the very same SLIDING RULER theory. James is talking to Christians and James flatly denies that the Law has TWO standards of righteousness but just one if WORKS are the objects being judged - fail in only "ONE" point under law and your are forever judged a sinner and thus under condemnation and the wrath of God. To be justified UNDER LAW you must keep ALL POINTS - James 2:10. That is why "NO FLESH" (not merely lost flesh) shall be justified under law.

We are justified by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone ONCE AND FOR ALL. Christ is THE END of the law for righteousness for those who believe in Christ (Rom. 10:1-4) NOT THE BEGINNING OF LAW KEEPING!!!

You are confusing progressive sanctification with justification before God and that is what Paul defines as "another gospel."

Paul's letter to the Romans calls for obedience to God's Law - in Romans 2:11-16 it is the basis for acceptance in that future Gospel judgment when "judgment is passed in favor of the saints" Dan 7:22.

You have inserted the idea that the "obedience of faith" in Romans 1 is to be divorced from the "doers of the law" in Romans 2 who are justified.

That idea does not survive the text.



Agreed. But in Romans 1 and in Romans 2 Paul is not talking about Christ "obeying" in the "obedience of faith among the gentiles" nor in Romans 2 is he talking about christ being a "hearer but not a doer" of the Law.

In both Romans 1 and 2 - the choice to obey - is the choice that the saved saint makes. And it is seen in Romans 6 and 8 as well- actually DOING what they have chosen to do.

In Romans 7 we see the "choosing" and in Romans 2, 6, and 8 we see the "doing".

Hence Paul starts out the entire letter with the concept of "the obedience of faith".



I am teaching the Bible "alone" - and insisting that we not ignore texts just because they do not fit the man-made traditions of OSAS or just because they do not deny the Bible doctrine on perseverance of the saints. It is the "ONE Gospel" of all ages.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DW: Bob, you are teaching an "accursed" gospel.

HP: DW, show us why it could not be truthfully said you are teaching an antinomian gospel and a sinning religion.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DW: fail in only "ONE" point under law and your are forever judged a sinner

HP: What an outright misrepresentation of the facts. DW, you are trying so hard to elevate your sinning religion while degrading everyone else that you have lost touch with truth completely here. Have you no understanding of the word repentance and the consequences of true repentance?

 

[BobRyan]

In Romans 1:1-17 he is addressing saints and concludes that section by stating why he wants to come to Rome

True. He calls the saints "obedience" in vs 1-17 -

In Romans 1:18-32 Paul addresses the lost world that are NOT the readers of the letter to the Roman church using the term "THEY".

Romans 2:1-29 is speaking again to "you" - the readers of the letter in Rome. Condemnation in Romans 2 is not to the saved saints of Rom 1:1-17.

Speaking to the lost - Paul does not say in vs 1-3 that HE is the one doing those things - nor that the saints mentioned in vs 1-17 of chapter 1 are doing those things.

Romans 2 vs 5-29 shows BOTH the failing and the succeeding cases among jews and the gentiles. The succeeding cases fit perfectly with the saints of chapter 1.

Rom 2 Gospel context is the "Goodness of God that leads to repentance" vs 4. Gospel Justification of vs 13-16. The chapter also deals with the lost among both Jews and Gentiles.

No surprise there.

Then in Romans 3 Paul begins to deal with the more basic issue of salvation for lost mankind in general. Showing that the continued authority of the Law of God declares ALL mankind to be lost and in need of the Gospel.
================================

Romans 1:1-7 begins with the “Gospel of God” vs 1 and the point that the apostles are calling for the “obedience of the faith among all the gentiles” vs 5.

It is there that we see that the letter is most certainly directed to gentiles “obedience of faith among all the gentiles for His name’s sake among whom you also are the called of Jesus Christ” vs 5-6

The Letter further points to the intended readers in this way “to ALL who are beloved of God in Rome, called as saints: Grace to you and peace”. Vs 7.

Paul is actually giving thanks in Chapter 1 for the faith of those to whom he is writing “I thank God through Jesus Christ for you all, because your faith is being proclaimed throughout the whole world”

James 2 states that the faith of the saints is shown by their obedience.

Paul in Romans 1 argues for the "obedience of faith".

5 through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith among all the Gentiles
for His name's sake,
6 among whom you also are the called of Jesus Christ;
7 to all who are beloved of God in Rome, called as saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.


Amazed to find that this is the very chapter where we are sometimes told to imagine that Paul is describing only “failure” and never “success” in the Gospel of Christ.

Paul affirms this portion of his letter written to his contemporaries – brothers and sisters in Christ. “that I may be encouraged together with you while among you, each of us by the other’s faith, both yours and mine…” vs 12.

This is not a “you are all failing in the eyes of God” chapter – not by a long shot!
Romans 1:14-17 is explicitly referencing the Gospel condition.

Even when it gets down to vs 13 – Paul still refers to the reader as his brethren “I do not want you to be unaware brethren” speaking to the Romans as those who are to be included as “among the rest of the gentiles” with whom Paul has also being obtaining fruit in the Gospel.

Paul continues with the introductory “gospel” theme in chapter 1 “thus for my part I am eager to preach the Gospel to you also who are in Rome.. for I am not ashamed of the Gospel for it is the power of God for salvation.. to the Jew first and also to the Greek”. Vs 15-16

That is the key phrase for the next chapter and a half because Paul shows both the succeeding Gospel examples “to the Jew first and also to the Greek” – as well as the failing examples among both Jews and Gentiles using that same key phrase.

Vs 17 “For in it” (the Gospel mentioned in vs 15-16) the righteousness of God is revealed from Faith to Faith” as it is written “but the Righteous shall live by Faith” Habakkuk 2:4.

In Vs 18-32 Paul points to the wrath of God “against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men.. who although THEY know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, THEY not only do the same, but also give hearty practice to those who practice them” vs 18, vs 32. Switching from "you" to "they".


These are what Paul calls "barbarians" who have no access to the Word of God.


14 I am under obligation both to Greeks and to barbarians, both to the wise and to the foolish.

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress
the truth in unrighteousness,
19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen,
being understood through what has been made[/u], so that they are without excuse.

 

[BobRyan]

From Romans 1:18 to Romans 3:21 he provides the reason why the lost need to hear the gospel. They are digressing in sin under God's wrath - Romans 1:18-32.

They are hypocritical in their thinking. They make comparisons between themselves and those listed previously (Rom. 2:3) and beleive that they can escape judgement because they believe God's judgement is based on a sliding scale (Rom. 2:1-5).

There is no "sliding scale" argument being made in Rom 2 by the lost. Rather the lost among the Jews suppose that "being a Jew" is sufficient to get them saved - based on the arbitrary selection of the Jews over the gentiles - regardless of what they are doing.

It is an early form of Calvinism.

Paul counters by saying that God is NOT partial - He is not selecting out one over the other for some arbitrary idea like race or culture - but that all are judged on the subject of obedience to the Law of God.

7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.
9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,
10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.


11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified

That is right - Gospel "justification" in that future judgment is being explicitly discussed in Romans 2. Pretty surprising for those who imagine that only "failing Jews" are discussed in Romans 2.

Paul addresses the Jews (Rom. 2:11-24) who believe the very same thing, that God's judgement is a SLIDING SCALE

At no point do those condemned in vs 11-29 claim to believe in a sliding scale - rather they believe in the concept of arbitrary selection, reflected in the Calvinist doctrine on that same point.

In Romans 2 Paul speaks to the perseverance of the saints - arguing that those who persevere are those who inherit eternal life. This is the work of the saints - the born-again.

To be justified UNDER LAW you must keep ALL POINTS - James 2:10. That is why "NO FLESH" (not merely lost flesh) shall be justified under law.

We are justified by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone ONCE AND FOR ALL.

Predictably you have circled back to the case of the lost and the justification that is past - even in a Romans 2 chapter where the perseverance of the saints is being discussed - in the context of future Gospel justification is the subject - just like Dan 7:22 "Judgment passed in favor of the saints".

In Heb 6:1 Paul argues that such circling back is merely rejecting the mature food of scripture and continually focused on the start. Paul says "leaving the elementary things" -- in his effort to get the reader of that letter to get to the more weighty doctrinal topics.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Dr. Walter]

HP: DW, show us why it could not be truthfully said you are teaching an antinomian gospel and a sinning religion.

Very very simple. I am teaching the only gospel in the world that clearly declares that God's law has been fully vindicated and completely satisfied in precise accordance to the strictest demands of James 2:10 in the person and work of Jesus Christ IN OUR PLACE.

Secondarily, this justification by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone is not alone but is necessarily accompanied by the new birth which is God giving a new heart that desires to repent of sin and believe the gospel as well as to obey the Lord BECAUSE of what Christ completed IN HIS BEHALF - thus service out of love - and in addition to the new birth, the indwelling Spirit of God who worketh in us both to will and to do of his good pleasure. His good pleasure is not instant sinless perfection. His good pleasure is not the same measure of grace and faith to each saint. His good pleasure is not to prevent sin from occuring in the life of the saint. His good pleasure is that NOT ONE GIVEN TO THE SON SHOULD BE LOST.

 

[Dr. Walter]

How many lies does it take to be a liar? How many murders does it take to be a murderer? How many sins does it take to be a sinner? How many sins does it take to be condemned by the law as a sinner?

If breaking the law of God in all of its points only requires breaking "one point" then what would the Law require to keep the whole law? Very simple, "Be ye therefore Perfect EVEN AS God is perfect" or break no single point of the Law.

God has never sinned once in the past, does not sin once and never will sin once in the future. That is why Jesus could say "There is NONE GOOD but one and that is God."

This is the righteousness required to be justified by the law and that is precisely why it is called "the rightouesness OF GOD."

There is none that doeth good, no, NOT ONE by this standard of righteousenss and that is why the Law is a school master to lead you to Christ as He is THE END of the law for righteousness to every man that believeth. Notice, He is the end OF THE LAW not the BEGINNING of law keeping FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS in order to be justified in the future as you and Bob teach

HP: What an outright misrepresentation of the facts. DW, you are trying so hard to elevate your sinning religion while degrading everyone else that you have lost touch with truth completely here. Have you no understanding of the word repentance and the consequences of true repentance?

 

[BobRyan]

How many lies does it take to be a liar? How many murders does it take to be a murderer? How many sins does it take to be a sinner? How many sins does it take to be condemned by the law as a sinner?

If breaking the law of God in all of its points only requires breaking "one point" then what would the Law require to keep the whole law? Very simple, "Be ye therefore Perfect EVEN AS God is perfect" or break no single point of the Law.

God has never sinned once in the past, does not sin once and never will sin once in the future. That is why Jesus could say "There is NONE GOOD but one and that is God."

This is the righteousness required to be justified by the law and that is precisely why it is called "the rightouesness OF GOD."

There is none that doeth good, no, NOT ONE by this standard of righteousenss and that is why the Law is a school master to lead you to Christ

When you circle back to the problem for the lost - you do well in getting the points straight. Where you struggle is in the Bible doctrine of the perseverance of the saints.

7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.
9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,
10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.


11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,
16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.


"Do we then make void the LAW of God by our faith? God forbid! in fact we ESTABLISH the Law of God" Rom 3:31.

"But what matters is keeping the commandments of God". 1Cor 7:19

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DW: You are confusing progressive sanctification with justification before God and that is what Paul defines as "another gospel."

HP: Certainly all believers grow in grace, but where is “progressive” sanctification taught in Scripture?? It would seem to me just as impossible to believe in progressive sanctification as it would be to believe in progressive regeneration. Death is no sanctifier. Death is the last enemy. Scripture teaches we can be now, in this present world, sanctified. I would like to see you produce a single solitary text that depicts sanctification as something accomplished in heaven.

Here are just a few that depict sanctification as something completed in this present world. 2Ti 2:21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.
Heb 2:11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,
Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
Jude 1:1 ¶ Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:
1Co 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus,
1Co 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
1Co 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus,
2Ti 2:21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

Certainly sanctification can be thought of in differing senses, but that is a far cry from just pulling ‘progressive’ sanctification out of thin air. Shall we call your 'progressive' sanctification 'another' sanctification? That would certainly seem appropriate to me.

 

[Dr. Walter]

The term means to "set apart." The term sanctification when used in the perfect tense refers to the past tense salvation unto which you have been set aside as a finished work.

However, there is a present tense aspect of sanctification. Take a look at 2 Cor. 3:18. Take a look at 1 Thessalonians 4:1-5; Take a look at Ephesians 5:1-19. The warefare between the old and new man is progressive. Christians are told to put off the flesh and put on the new man. The command to "be holy" is progressive sanctification. etc.

HP: Certainly all believers grow in grace, but where is “progressive” sanctification taught in Scripture?? It would seem to me just as impossible to believe in progressive sanctification as it would be to believe in progressive regeneration. Death is no sanctifier. Death is the last enemy. Scripture teaches we can be now, in this present world, sanctified. I would like to see you produce a single solitary text that depicts sanctification as something accomplished in heaven.

Here are just a few that depict sanctification as something completed in this present world. 2Ti 2:21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.
Heb 2:11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,
Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
Jude 1:1 ¶ Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:
1Co 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus,
1Co 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
1Co 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus,
2Ti 2:21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

Certainly sanctification can be thought of in differing senses, but that is a far cry from just pulling ‘progressive’ sanctification out of thin air. Shall we call your 'progressive' sanctification 'another' sanctification? That would certainly seem appropriate to me.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DW: How many lies does it take to be a liar?

HP: One.

DW: How many murders does it take to be a murderer?

HP: Just hate your brother once in your heart will do.

DW: How many sins does it take to be a sinner?

HP: Just one.

DW: How many sins does it take to be condemned by the law as a sinner?

HP: Just one.

Now with those questions answered, listen to the Word of God concerning a truly repentant believer and praise the Lord with me!!

Jude 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

 

[Dr. Walter]

or "I SHALL LOSE NOTHING" - very good, I am glad you came to see the divine promise of preservation of the saints based upon the finished law by Jesus Christ and not based upon personal obedience of the saints.

HP: One.



HP: Just hate your brother once in your heart will do.


HP: Just one.



HP: Just one.

Now with those questions answered, listen to the Word of God concerning a truly repentant believer and praise the Lord with me!!

Jude 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DW: The command to "be holy" is progressive sanctification. etc.

HP: Says who?? DW?? Let God’s Word be true and everyman a liar.

Tit 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this PRESENT world; (EM)

There is a perfect picture of the sanctified life. It is not simply something conferred upon us after death, but a present living reality to be experienced by all believers, IN THIS PRESENT WORLD, that have ears to hear and a heart of love set on obedience towards God.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Notice the verse you selected is in the PRESENT tense not the past tense! Teaching is an ongoing progressive action that is never completed in this life. So your own text condemns the real liar.

HP: Says who?? DW?? Let God’s Word be true and everyman a liar.

Tit 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this PRESENT world; (EM)

There is a perfect picture of the sanctified life. It is not simply something conferred upon us after death, but a present living reality to be experienced by all believers, IN THIS PRESENT WORLD, that have ears to hear and a heart of love set on obedience towards God.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DW: or "I SHALL LOSE NOTHING" - very good, I am glad you came to see the divine promise of preservation of the saints based upon the finished law by Jesus Christ and not based upon personal obedience of the saints.

HP: Saints are those living godly in Christ Jesus. That involves personal holiness on our part with the help proffered by the Holy Spirit. There is absolutely no doubt that all that persevere in obedience and love will find their eternal rest in Him!

That still begs the question who are in Christ and who might simply be deceived. Many will in the end be deceived you know. If one lacks fruit of obedience, what will they find as evidence of their salvation when they fulfill the command to examine “themselves???”

2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DW: Notice the verse you selected is in the PRESENT tense not the past tense! Teaching is an ongoing progressive action that is never completed in this life. So your own text condemns the real liar.

HP: I am reminded of the words of Paul. 1Co 4:3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.

 

[Dr. Walter]

You know I was thinking the very same thing when you charged me with lying when in fact the very text you placed with that charge proved there is a progressive sanctification when you were the one denying it and calling others liars.

HP: I am reminded of the words of Paul. 1Co 4:3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DW: Notice the verse you selected is in the PRESENT tense not the past tense! Teaching is an ongoing progressive action that is never completed in this life. So your own text condemns the real liar.

HP: I wonder what conclusion the good Dr. would find exploring the tense of the word or salvation in Scripture? Hmmmm

Here might be one to start with. Lu 9:56 For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them.

Shall we conclude that because salvation here is obviously speaking of an ongoing progressive action (for all are not saved in the same moment) that salvation cannot or is not accomplished in this present world?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DW: You know I was thinking the very same thing when you charged me with lying when in fact the very text you placed with that charge proved there is a progressive sanctification when you were the one denying it and calling others liars.

HP: Very well, then we shall just leave it to God to sort out who is really telling the truth. Moving right along…..:thumbs:

 

[Dr. Walter]

I cannot think of anyone better suited:thumbs:

HP: Very well, then we shall just leave it to God to sort out who is really telling the truth. Moving right along…..:thumbs: