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Defining "the law" as used in New Testament

DW, I did soften the word 'lie' as I recall. I changed it to misrepresenting the truth, did I not?

If one is truely ignorant of the truth, one might believe a lie, but believing a lie and telling a lie are two different things. Forgive me for not editing out the word 'lie' before I posted.
 

Dr. Walter

New Member
I noticed these two extra posts directed my way so I will answer them.

The term "salvation" is indeed broad. The past tense "saved" refers to the aspect of salvation that is finished - regeneration/conversion/justification/adoption.

The present tense "save" refers to the aspect of salvation that is not finished - progressive sanctification of the life - basis for rewards in heaven and present blessings.

The future tense "shall be saved" refers to the climax of salvation in glorification of the body, rewards of the saints and entrance into heaven.

The past tense secures the present and future tense.

Personal self-examination of your life is necessary for assurance of salvation. Fruits are manifest evidence for assurance but do not save or help save as even the lost religous man is full of such fruits but for the wrong reason (Mt. 7:22). However, there can be no assurance of salvation if there is no practical godliness.



HP: I wonder what conclusion the good Dr. would find exploring the tense of the word or salvation in Scripture? Hmmmm

Here might be one to start with. Lu 9:56 For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them.

Shall we conclude that because salvation here is obviously speaking of an ongoing progressive action (for all are not saved in the same moment) that salvation cannot or is not accomplished in this present world?
 
DW: However, there can be no assurance of salvation if there is no practical godliness.

HP: How can one be saved that has no assurance? If one comes to you with no assurance due to a lack of godliness, are you going to counsel such a one to overlook the lack of godliness and lay hold in faith to an assurance you say cannot be found apart from godliness?

If the Holy Spirit bears witness with our spirit that we are sons of God, who are we to even suggest that a proper relationship can or does exist where such a witness is not present as exhibited by a lack of assurance?
 

Dr. Walter

New Member
No problem. I am sure that I have or will make my share of mistakes as well:thumbs:

DW, I did soften the word 'lie' as I recall. I changed it to misrepresenting the truth, did I not?

If one is truely ignorant of the truth, one might believe a lie, but believing a lie and telling a lie are two different things. Forgive me for not editing out the word 'lie' before I posted.
 

Dr. Walter

New Member
Assurance is not what saves a person - The Christ provision is what saves a person.

Personally the condition of the saint has been changed by new birth.

Positionally the objective legal status of the saint has been changed by justification.

Progressively the subjective experiential status of the saint changes constantly. Assurance has to do with the subjective experiential changable status as it is dependent upon our continuing responses to God and others as well as to our self, the world and Satan. However, this is a battle to redeem our "TIME" not our entrance into heaven (Eph. 5:16-19). This is a battle to make our life count for the glory of God not to enter heaven. This is a battle for experiential blessings (assurance, joy, peace, prosperity, growth, etc.) not to enter heaven. This is a battle for future rewards that give an ABUNDANT entrance into heaven but not for entrance into heaven (2 Pet.1:11 with 1 Cor. 3:14-15). This is a battle to EXPERIENCE salvation here and now not to obtain it or maintain it. This is a battle for the salvation of our daily life and some days it is lost and some days it is gained.

When you read the last Biblical account of the Old Testament personage Lot, what do you read about? Drunk and committing incest. Can you find much of anything recorded about his life, and there is a lot, that provides fruit that he was a saved man? Not very much from the Old Testament. Yet, Peter informs us that he was a "vexed" with sin and he was a "righteous man."

He was "righteous" in regard to his inward new creation as it is created in true righteousness and holiness. He was "righteous" in his legal position before God. However, in regard to his EXPERIENTIAL life there is very little righteous that we can find and we certainly cannot find it in the last comments of his life.

He LOST his witness to his family - they would not heed his word. He LOST his wife. He LOST his self-respect with his daughters. He LOST nearly EVERYTHING experientially in life but the verdict of the New Testament was that he was not a LOST man. He is an example of a person whose soul was "saved even as by fire" (1 Cor. 3:14-15).

Our salvation is not determined by our EXPERIENTIAL life but by Christ's life. Our EXPERIENTIAL life determines our present joy, peace, assurance, witness, usefulness, rewards or EXPERIENTIAL salvation here and now.

The most miserable person in the world is a born again man in sin (Psa. 32; 51). David did not ask to restore his salvation but rather to restore "the joy" of his salvation or the SUBJECTIVE experience of the objective reality obtained by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone.



HP: How can one be saved that has no assurance? If one comes to you with no assurance due to a lack of godliness, are you going to counsel such a one to overlook the lack of godliness and lay hold in faith to an assurance you say cannot be found apart from godliness?

If the Holy Spirit bears witness with our spirit that we are sons of God, who are we to even suggest that a proper relationship can or does exist where such a witness is not present as exhibited by a lack of assurance?
 

Dr. Walter

New Member
The difference between a lost and saved man

There is a difference between their spiritual condition. The saved man has the "inward" or "new" man that delights in the law of God, whereas the lost only has the "old man."

The saved man has the Indwelling Spirit to combat indwelling sin whereas the lost man only has indwelling sin.

The saved man is converted to the gospel and justified while the lost man is lost.

The saved man desires to please God for the glory of God whereas the lost man does everything for some other motive.

The saved man is still a sinner like the lost man but sin mores than he wants to while the lost man cannot get his fill of sin.

Both can live in sin but both cannot get away with it. The saved man cannot live in sin without internal misery and chastisement. David appeared to live in sin without repentance for nearly nine months and a child of God can live longer in sin. However, throught this period David provides his inner state:

Psa. 32:3 When I kept silence, my bones waxed old through my roaring all the day long.
4 For day and night thy hand was heavy upon me: my moisture is turned into the drought of summer. Selah.

Every child of God receives chastening and only those without chastisment are illigitimate children:

Heb. 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

Children of God do not live above sin and often can live in sin but can never enjoy living in sin. If you can find a professor living in sin and getting away with and enjoying themselves you have found an illigitimate child of God. However, you can find legitimate children of God LIVING IN SIN and the proof is that they are MISERABLE.

How much sin unsaves you if a child of God can live in sin and become unsaved? One sin? Continuing in sin for a day? a week? a month? nine months? God never forsakes His children and never ceases to chastening them even if he is to the extent of taking them home early.
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Children of God do not live above sin and often can live in sin but can never enjoy living in sin. If you can find a professor living in sin and getting away with and enjoying themselves you have found an illigitimate child of God. However, you can find legitimate children of God LIVING IN SIN and the proof is that they are MISERABLE.

How much sin unsaves you if a child of God can live in sin and become unsaved? One sin? Continuing in sin for a day? a week? a month? nine months? .

Romans 6 states that you are the slave of the one you obey either of sin or of righteousness and then ends with "the wages of sin is death".

1Cor 7:19 says "What matters is keeping the Commandments of God"

1John 2 says that the one who claims to know Christ and yet does not keep His Commandments is not telling the truth.

Matt 7 Christ said "not everyone who SAYS Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven - but he who DOES the will of My Father"

Romans 2 Paul says "it is not the HEARERS of the Law that are just before God but the DOERS of the Law will be justified"

Romans 8 says "IF by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the flesh" THEN are you the children of God.

You respond with the "sit in God's chair" argument in your "how many sins is too many".

In Matt 18 Christ shows the example of forgiveness revoked. In Ezek 18 we see the same thing.

Hence the NT emphasis on "perseverance of the saints".

in Christ,

Bob
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Hint from the Bible about the Law in the NT -

1Cor 9

8 I am not speaking these things according to human judgment, am I? Or does not the Law also say these things?
9 For it is
written in the Law of Moses, "" YOU SHALL NOT MUZZLE THE OX WHILE HE IS THRESHING.'' God is not concerned about oxen, is He?
 

Dr. Walter

New Member
Romans 6 states that you are the slave of the one you obey either of sin or of righteousness and then ends with "the wages of sin is death".

1Cor 7:19 says "What matters is keeping the Commandments of God"

1John 2 says that the one who claims to know Christ and yet does not keep His Commandments is not telling the truth.

Matt 7 Christ said "not everyone who SAYS Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven - but he who DOES the will of My Father"

Romans 2 Paul says "it is not the HEARERS of the Law that are just before God but the DOERS of the Law will be justified"

Romans 8 says "IF by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the flesh" THEN are you the children of God.

You respond with the "sit in God's chair" argument in your "how many sins is too many".

In Matt 18 Christ shows the example of forgiveness revoked. In Ezek 18 we see the same thing.

Hence the NT emphasis on "perseverance of the saints".

in Christ,

Bob

What a confused mess of scriptures jerked out of context and given the wrong inference by jamming them together.
 

Dr. Walter

New Member
Hint from the Bible about the Law in the NT -

1Cor 9

8 I am not speaking these things according to human judgment, am I? Or does not the Law also say these things?
9 For it is
written in the Law of Moses, "" YOU SHALL NOT MUZZLE THE OX WHILE HE IS THRESHING.'' God is not concerned about oxen, is He?

He is applying this to taking care of the minister not in order to be SAVED but to be faithful. If it were to be saved he would not refuse to DEMAND obedience to it for their own sake. Wow, what extent will you go to preach your false gospel????
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Romans 6 states that you are the slave of the one you obey either of sin or of righteousness and then ends with "the wages of sin is death".

1Cor 7:19 says "What matters is keeping the Commandments of God"

1John 2 says that the one who claims to know Christ and yet does not keep His Commandments is not telling the truth.

Matt 7 Christ said "not everyone who SAYS Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven - but he who DOES the will of My Father"

Romans 2 Paul says "it is not the HEARERS of the Law that are just before God but the DOERS of the Law will be justified"

Romans 8 says "IF by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the flesh" THEN are you the children of God.

You respond with the "sit in God's chair" argument in your "how many sins is too many".

In Matt 18 Christ shows the example of forgiveness revoked. In Ezek 18 we see the same thing.

Hence the NT emphasis on "perseverance of the saints".


What a confused mess of scriptures jerked out of context and given the wrong inference by jamming them together.

Just looking at the texts appears to give you heartburn. ;)

There are many more along those lines for that heartburn - why not just accept them?

in Christ,

Bob
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
1Cor 9

8 I am not speaking these things according to human judgment, am I? Or does not the Law also say these things?
9 For it is
written in the Law of Moses, "" YOU SHALL NOT MUZZLE THE OX WHILE HE IS THRESHING.'' God is not concerned about oxen, is He?


He is applying this to taking care of the minister not in order to be SAVED but to be faithful. If it were to be saved he would not refuse to DEMAND obedience to it for their own sake. Wow, what extent will you go to preach your false gospel????

Each time the subject of perseverance of the saints - or obedience of the saints comes up - you circle back to "what about the lost becoming saved".

Paul says in Heb 6 - 1 Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,

In the case of 1Cor 9:8-9 the point was to show that the Law of Moses was considered of more authority by Paul, and more binding upon the saved saints of the church - in Paul's writings - than the word of Paul. (Which gets us to the title for this thread)

in Christ,

Bob
 

Dr. Walter

New Member
1Cor 7:19 says "What matters is keeping the Commandments of God"

This text has nothing to do with obtaining or losing salvation. It follows a command to remain in a marriage with a lost person as long as that lost person is willing to stay with you as your influence may win them to Christ.

Don't change things simply because the Lord has saved you unless the Word of God demands that change - remain in the situation you are found in when saved in regard to marital status as with this lost mate.

Marriage with a lost person is not what you are to be concerned with but with obeying God's Word in this matter.

Don't change anything that God's word does not demand changed. Remain in whatever state you are found when saved. If you are a slave remain so, and don't use your Christian profession to demand your freedom. If you are circumcised remain so or uncircumcised remain so and don' use either as excuses to escape responsibility to obey God's Word in regard to marriage. The commandments of God are final in regard to marriage.

Using this text to teach works for salvation shows how desparate your position is.
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
1Cor 9

8 I am not speaking these things according to human judgment, am I? Or does not the Law also say these things?
9 For it is written in the Law of Moses, "" YOU SHALL NOT MUZZLE THE OX WHILE HE IS THRESHING.'' God is not concerned about oxen, is He?


Each time the subject of perseverance of the saints - or obedience of the saints comes up - you circle back to "what about the lost becoming saved".

Paul says in Heb 6 - 1 Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,

In the case of 1Cor 9:8-9 the point was to show that the Law of Moses was considered of more authority by Paul, and more binding upon the saved saints of the church - in Paul's writings - than the word of Paul. (Which gets us to the title for this thread)

This text has nothing to do with obtaining or losing salvation.

That is what the OSAS POV needs to "imagine" text after text no matter what the facts to the contrary. Now let us see if that imagination stands up to the test of scripture.

1. The point of 1Cor 9:8-9 was to address the title of this thread - regarding the Law in the NT that the NT saints respected. You dodged this point entirely.

2. Heb 6 has everything to do with salvation and the basics of the Gospel -- no way to bend it to another point.

3. 1Cor 7:19 deals with a number of issues but then zeros in on the continued authority of the "Commandments of God" as being "that which matters".

The point being that the NT saints still had value for the Commandments of God.

Walter said said:
It follows a command to remain in a marriage with a lost person as long as that lost person is willing to stay with you as your influence may win them to Christ.

Don't change things simply because the Lord has saved you unless the Word of God demands that change - remain in the situation you are found in when saved in regard to marital status as with this lost mate.

Marriage with a lost person is not what you are to be concerned with but with obeying God's Word in this matter.

Here you freely admit that the "Commandments of God" are in fact the "Word of God" and are to be obeyed by even NT saints.

I thought you were going to jump ship just then - but you stayed with the point. Bravo!

Using this text to teach works for salvation shows how desparate your position is.

Dredging up a "works for salvation" straw man on your own is a desperate argument on your part to divert the reader away from the key points that you have just admitted to - your fellow posters here notwithstanding apparently.

I for one am happy to see you willing to admit it.

in Christ,

Bob
 

Gerhard Ebersoehn

Active Member
Site Supporter
.............
1. The point of 1Cor 9:8-9 was to address the title of this thread - regarding the Law in the NT that the NT saints respected. You dodged this point entirely.............

GE:
Absolute NONSENSE!


You just ignore the context.

"This text has nothing to do with obtaining or losing salvation. It follows a command to remain in a marriage with a lost person ......."Dr Walter
 
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Dr. Walter

New Member
Amen! I totally agree with my brother Gerhard - absolute nonsense and a clear misinterpretation of the context as I an others have repeatedly pointed out.

GE:
Absolute NONSENSE!


You just ignore the context.

"This text has nothing to do with obtaining or losing salvation. It follows a command to remain in a marriage with a lost person ......."Dr Walter
 
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