Definition of worship

Well said.

Idol worship is so empty. I remember seeing some Japanese kids one time worshipping a jizo, a child Buddha statue. After they finished praying to it I said to them, "Has the jizo ever answered your prayers?" They all looked confused and said, "No." So I was able to tell them about the true God and how He answers prayer.

 

Amen and amen!

 

Gee John, I thought we were talking about true worship of the living God.

I thought I said worship could take various forms. Yes, I did.

So the word "Worship" doesn't appear for a whole 2 verses after God reveals men can't give him anything because He created everything for Himself and He gets all the glory. And let's just ignore the "therefore" as well. That word never connects what comes before with what comes after.

Look, the op asked for a definition of worship. One definition starts with man giving something to God. The second definition starts with God giving something to man, and man responding in worship. I find the second to be biblical.

peace to youraying:

 

So if I bow down to and serve the true and living God, it is somehow a different action from what an idolator does when he bows down to and serves his false god? There is no special definition of worship that occurs simply because it is towards the true God. Are you then saying that idolators don't worship simply because they have the wrong god? That is linguistically ridiculous.

There are many things that should distinguish our worship from idol worship: it should be in spirit, not just outward, it should not involve repetitious prayer, etc. But you can't change the basic definition of worship just to fit your theology. The original manuscripts of the Bible did not use the word "worship" in some mysterious way that a first century lost person could not understand.

Sigh. Proper exegesis demands finding out what the "therefore" is there for. No doubt. So I agreed with you that the worship in 12:2 is a response to God's graciousness.

But now you say that man cannot give God anything? You think that man giving something to God takes away God's glory? Do you also deny then that Rom. 12:1 says we should offer up our bodies to God as a living sacrifice?

By what you said, then, no offering can ever be given to God. I'd like to know who the offering is given to then. When you put an offering in the offering plate you must be saying in your heart, "Yep, this one goes to the church, but not to God."

Your definition of worship includes "worship" in the definition. That is a lexical no-no!

Peace back at you.

 

Nice to talk to you again John.
Sorry, but John I must say you are giving the "technical understanding of a word" in the noun setting which looks to me of activity being the defining part of worship, and the understanding of it in other countries and languages that point to an outward show of religion. But without the noun meaning also of our spiritual profound love and admiration, we are left with empty activity of show. Some of what you present (and is true) is of the verb use of worship of Love, yes, but in excess show as in idol worship.

No, I do not always bow my head in prayer. Many times such as now as I type and look at this monitor, I am praying I not speak falsely, or try to interpret His Word which He has interpreted for us. Sometimes my eyes or open, and sometime they are closed as I like probably most of you "touch type" and concentrate to bring to mind His Word. In my activity of praying, I am sometime vacuuming, or washing dishes, making the bed to the delight of my wife. Driving, cutting the yard, grocery shopping, or whatever, I have no Holy Moment, Time, Place or positional stance to accomplish communicating with Him. Yes at times I bow my head in certain settings, and other times look up to face Him in His glory.

I don't mean to discount your knowledge of languages, and meaning/s to gain a truth, but I saw in your post the performing of religious rites deemed necessary when we worship.

 

I'm sorry you saw some kind of necessary religious rite in my post. I really don't know where you got that. I didn't say a physical action was necessary. I didn't consciously put it there, nor did I mean to put it there! I certainly don't believe outward acts are necessary for faith.

I'm a word oriented person, and I think linguistically. As a missionary I must also be a linguist--what I believe to be a gift from God. So when I define a word or concept I do it according to the common usage of the word among normal people, and that is how I have been defining worship on this thread. The typical Japanese person, and I believe the typical Greek-speaking person of the 1st century, would understand worship in the Bible just as I have been defining it.

I believe it is dangerous to put our 21st century American or European meanings back into the Bible when we read it. I was taught in college and grad school and still practice and believe in what is called "grammatical-historical interpretation," in which we must understand the original intent of the 1st century author and meaning in 1st century culture in order to interpret the Bible correctly.

 

We need to be careful when we make claims that others are fundementally wrong. This is not to be done lightly.

The Word of God should always direct our Worship. But it is not in error to say that worship of God is giving our all to Him. This definition is vague, but not wrong. It is not wrong to say that worship is praying. It is not wrong to say that worship is singing praises to Him and about Him. None of these definitions are complete but neither are they wrong.

Worship is not defined by what guides us in it but by the action involved in it. Worship is the effect not the cause. We worship because of who God is. We discover who God is by His written and Living Word. In neither of these has worship yet begun.

When discovering the context of Romans 12:1,2 it is necessary to consider the whole of chapter 11 not just the few verses before it. Paul has just discussd the grafting in, of the gentiles into the covenant with Israel to bring us into the Kingdom of God. It is because of ths grafting, it is because of this salvation, it is because of our relationship with God that we presnrt ourselves a living sacrifice. It is because of this that we worship God with all that we are and take up our cross daily. The "therfore" is not refering to worship with a starting point in scripture. Again the "therefore is speaking to the context of ch 11 which is our salvation.

It does not matter how you play with semantics Pastor Tim is not wrong.

 

Wow, I had forgotten I posted in this forum.
I think canadyjd and I agree more than appears...
I consider the words "giving to God" as responding to God.

Maybe a better word than giving should have been offering.
I offer my praise to God
I offer my talents to God
I offer my prays to God
I offer my life to God
I offer my money to God.

Why?

He has given them all to me!
Without God we would have nothing.

Worship is ascribing worth to something.
God is worth all.. for without him, we would have nothing.

I hope this clears up the confusion.
I still say we give to God in worship.
We give Him our all, because he gave it to us.

How else can we show God what he is worth to us?
If we tell Him we are giving Him praise.
If we show Him we are giving Him our life.

What other ways can a Human respond to God?
Anything we do to show God we count Him as worthy, in someways gives to God.

 

Your words are very gracious, and I agree. I never meant to attack what you said, only to point out the starting point of worship must be with God's revelation of something. We do seem to be saying the same thing, now that you have explained what you meant.

I apologize, Tim. In looking back at my posts, I was somewhat harsh, and lacked grace. That was not what I intended.

peace to youraying:

 

I think the reason I said what I did in my first post about giving, is from some of the responses of people that I have been in church with...

I am sure you have heard some of these also:
They will say, "I didn't get anything out of worship today."
or, "Worship was great today, I certainly got a blessing."
or "I got something out of worship this morning."

You see, I have seen people go to church to get something out of it.
That is the wrong reason to worship God. It is selfish.

But I feel we are seeing more of this, because we are a consumer driven society. Church is just another commodity that we consume.
How many go to church to get a feel good feeling?
How many go to church to be entertained?

 

I do! I like that "good feeling" that flows from breast to breast. If you took the "feeling" out of church, I would be lost.

I admit I haven't read this whole thread and my comments may be misplaced but the "feeling" means a lot to me.

 

But I am sure Bob, you do not go to church just for the feeling.
Some do.

I have also been thinking about this.
Canadyjd is right in more ways.

In Romans 12, it says it is our "reasonable" service.
That means we have to "reason" (think logically) why we must worship.
This is tied in with the last verses of chapter 11.

God gives to us, so out of love we logically want to give back to him. It is our reasonable response.

I have also seen those that serve God out of fear. They are afraid if they don't, God will send them to Hell...
That is selfish also.

If we try not to sin because we are scared of the consequeces, we are being selfish... we are thinking about us, and how we can better our future.

The only worship God will accept is the worship out of love... simply because He is God, and who he is.

I try to live right because I have a deep appreciation of what God did for me... not to try to convince him to do something for me.

I am afraid, also, that there are some that only go to church to try to appease God... just so God will bless them.

Think about this:
If God had condemned every human to Hell, would He still be worthy of Worship?

 

Amen

peace to youraying: