Degree mill problems!

[paidagogos]

Disagree

Jesus showed compassion - and as Christians, are we not to follow His example?

A church, is an organization aiming to win souls -- not sell drugs or porn -- and regardless of how weak its administration may be, surely it is deserving of MUCH respect from the rest of us. We do that we our parents -- no matter their flaws, we show respect. Right? Or am I in the wrong board?

I see no need to make offensive remarks about ANY church.
It is not Christian to do so.

Don't know which is worse, an honest mistake made by a church, or an offensive remarks from a "Christian leader" about another Christian?

Can we not correct with love? Not knowing how that happened, should we be hasty to judge? And is this degree of judgement acceptable in the eyes of God.

Dr. Bob, with all due respect and brotherly love, why do i keep running into posts by you in which you throw offenses at organizations who work so very hard to spread the word of God?

What would non-Christians who run into the board think of this cruel "Christians-attacking-Christians" conduct? Where is the love?

Why no "good Christians" of this board suggest prayers for this unfortunate event?

So sad.

Although I tolerate your opinion (anyone has the right to his view), I thoroughly disagree with your premise. What is the basis of your statements? If you read the context of the Scripture to which you alluded, you will find that it is dealing with hypocrites who do the very thing or worse. It further seems to allow judging after one has cleared the beam out of his eye (Matthew 7:5). One must be careful not to read the prevailing pop theology into the Scriptures. There is no sweepng mandate here against making judgments--it warns against hypocritical judgments.

As for Christians confronting other Christians, Paul wrote that he "withstood him (Peter) to the face, because he was to be blamed (Galatians 2:11)." I think you would be hard-pressed to substantiate your views, as stated, from the Scriptures.

Simply put, one must be able to critique even other Christians if we are to stand for truth and righteousness. There is no Biblical prohibition on disagreeing with other Christians.

 

[Capewell]

angels of light?

I have observed over the years as a Christian that the church has, and is being plunged into non-soul winning in a great part because of degrees/bible colleges period. Credited or otherwise. When the religion makes it imperative that a pastor requires a degree from their school, always remember that guess who can send his folks to garner this requirement, that's right Satan. Appearing as an angel of light, his folks will have in hand all that most churches require, a degree, so surely this man can lead us on to victory. Point to make, 50 years ago when I got saved, you could witness on the job, in your apartment complex, soul winning night at the church, etc. Since then the world has changed to you must not do so anymore. So, along comes the angel of light with his degree, telling the church that God does not want them to preach/witness apart of what society says to. Well, do we obey God or man? The light goes under the bushel basket, the lost die without Christ to our shame. So we ponder the earned degree vs the bought one for our pastor/leaders. Oh well, the Word tells us that in the last days.........

 

[Havensdad]

I have observed over the years as a Christian that the church has, and is being plunged into non-soul winning in a great part because of degrees/bible colleges period. Credited or otherwise. When the religion makes it imperative that a pastor requires a degree from their school, always remember that guess who can send his folks to garner this requirement, that's right Satan. Appearing as an angel of light, his folks will have in hand all that most churches require, a degree, so surely this man can lead us on to victory. Point to make, 50 years ago when I got saved, you could witness on the job, in your apartment complex, soul winning night at the church, etc. Since then the world has changed to you must not do so anymore. So, along comes the angel of light with his degree, telling the church that God does not want them to preach/witness apart of what society says to. Well, do we obey God or man? The light goes under the bushel basket, the lost die without Christ to our shame. So we ponder the earned degree vs the bought one for our pastor/leaders. Oh well, the Word tells us that in the last days.........

Sorry, but this has NOTHING to do with Seminary, whatsoever. Every good seminary that I know of, stresses the importance of evangelism: some even require it. Certainly they have Biblical evangelism classes, many of which hit the street for "field trips", so to speak...

No, the problem is, that the false Gospel of "happiness" ('Jesus has a wonderful plan for your life: come to the savior to make your life happy. He loves you just the way you are' etc.) has filled our churches with false converts, who have no desire to see the lost come to a saving knowledge of Christ. This has spilled over into Hollywood, which has further portrayed Christians as "weird" for witnessing.

And most of this with good seminaries and Godly seminary professors (such as for instance, Albert Mohler) screaming that it was happening every step of the way.

No, the problem is not in the seminaries, but the local church. A bunch of unsaved lazy people, are never going to want to go out and preach repentance and faith, on the streets.

 

[PilgrimPastor]

I have observed over the years as a Christian that the church has, and is being plunged into non-soul winning in a great part because of degrees/bible colleges period. Oh well, the Word tells us that in the last days.........

Two quick points:

First, with the exception of some very liberal seminaries, (Chicago Theological Seminary, Union in Minneapolis, etc.), no seminary is actively teaching people NOT to evangelize. Even in the liberal traditions they are not opposed to it, their theology just doesn't tend toward its need.

Second, these may well be the last days but it is the general acceptance of Universalism theology that has crept into the Church that is pushing the Church further and further off of its foundation. The seminaries may be a part of that, but I am not convinced that they are THE problem.

 

[Dr. Bob]

Part of the issue is perception.

My role in everything I am and do is "doxological" (giving glory to God). I leaven the "soteriological" (getting folks saved) to the work of the holy Spirit.

I proclaim truth, but the Gospel alone leads to easy believism and the shallowist (and weakest) of Christians. Remember, the Great Commandment is to love God and love others. The Great Commission is to Disciple, Baptize and Train. That puts the "soul winning" mentality is its proper perspective.

Out where I minister the largest group of people converting to LDS is former Baptists. They raised a hand, prayed a ditty, saw the dirty secrets and walked away. And because they were themselves AND their "pastors" uneducated, they walk into the false doctrine of Mormonism.

I don't "attack" soul winning (a term non-existent in the Word, but everyone knows that). I think the greater danger to our churches is what our uneducate "pastors" are doing. Just my opinion.

 

[PilgrimPastor]

I don't "attack" soul winning (a term non-existent in the Word, but everyone knows that). I think the greater danger to our churches is what our uneducated "pastors" are doing. Just my opinion.

I would suggest the need to clarify; in my experience, within Baptist and non-Baptist circles, their are basically three types of "uneducated or seriously undereducated" pastors. The kind that are ultra-fundamentalist and by necessity are ultra literal interpretive biblicists - these are the most dangerous and the least dangerous all at the same time...

Then their are the "anything goes" folks who follow whatever the latest trend is or whatever they see another local "successful" pastor do, I know a few of these personally. This category can also apply to a lot folks from some pretty mainstream seminaries as well...

Then their are the well studied folks after the order of Charles Spurgeon; certainly the smallest group.

Just some thoughts.

 

[Capewell]

The Church

The PROBLEM is the church of today with their secular requirements to fit in with the society they belong to. Along with the institutions accredited, non-accredited, and the purchased degree mills. We, as Christians, must understand that our degrees from Bible based institutions mean nothing to secular society. So, it is within the church that we demand such. Facts, there are doctorates/degrees of every persuasion within the Christian community, speaking of one another as how stupid the different positions are. Spurgeon, as great a preacher he was, is frowned upon in the world and by most modern day progressive Christian theologians. But, the reason Spurgeon/Paul/Peter, etc. were used so greatly by the Lord is that the more they were educated by the Holy Spirit, the greater the All Mighty became and the more they decreased in statue. Which means that the more educated you become in the Lord, the more the great commission burns in your heart to see the world saved by preaching the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Havensdad]

The PROBLEM is the church of today with their secular requirements to fit in with the society they belong to. Along with the institutions accredited, non-accredited, and the purchased degree mills. We, as Christians, must understand that our degrees from Bible based institutions mean nothing to secular society. So, it is within the church that we demand such. Facts, there are doctorates/degrees of every persuasion within the Christian community, speaking of one another as how stupid the different positions are. Spurgeon, as great a preacher he was, is frowned upon in the world and by most modern day progressive Christian theologians. But, the reason Spurgeon/Paul/Peter, etc. were used so greatly by the Lord is that the more they were educated by the Holy Spirit, the greater the All Mighty became and the more they decreased in statue. Which means that the more educated you become in the Lord, the more the great commission burns in your heart to see the world saved by preaching the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ.

???

Spurgeon is required reading in many seminaries. He is certainly not "frowned upon" by anyone except those who disagree with his theology.

The fact is, good seminaries are probably the ONLY thing that is preventing the complete apostasy by the Churches in America today: Institutions such as Southern Seminary, for instance, have become the fortresses fighting against complete loss of the true Gospel message. God has used them mightily; without them, I shudder to think what kind of silliness would be preached in the churches today. OH WAIT! All we have to do is look at the uneducated preachers on TBN! All we need is an "anointing" right? Wrong. We are commanded to be diligent in our studies. Paul was highly educated (formally, in that day). And who was it that God decreed would Pen the largest amount of New Testament theology?

As far as accreditation, there is absolutely nothing wrong with demanding academic standards. This has absolutely nothing to do with problems in the church today. In fact, I would say the opposite: the problem lies with uneducated Pastors, "shooting from the Hip"with no idea of how to study their Bible.

 

[Martin]

Hello Capewell. I hope all is going well for you. I wanted to take a moment and comment on some of the things you said in your reply.

The PROBLEM is the church of today with their secular requirements to fit in with the society they belong to. Along with the institutions accredited, non-accredited, and the purchased degree mills. We, as Christians, must understand that our degrees from Bible based institutions mean nothing to secular society

==That (highlighted) is simply not a true statement. I know several people who have transferred credits from a Bible College/Seminary into a secular University. More than a few people who have earned graduate degrees (M.A. or MDiv) from a Seminary and have been accepted into secular PhD or EdD programs based on that seminary graduate education.

I have a M.A. in Religion from Liberty Baptist Theological Seminary (of Liberty University) and I am currently finishing up my M.A. in History. My religion degree from Liberty was honored by the secular university from which I am earning my history degree. In fact they accepted six hours (maximum allowed) in church history from my religion program. My seminary (Bible) education did mean something to UNC. Why? Because it was a quality education earned from a regionally accredited university.

I currently teach history at a state community college. I was hired based on my M.A. from Liberty, and the fact that I had over eighteen graduate hours in history (six of which were from Liberty).

So your assertion that secular schools care nothing for work done at Bible Colleges/Seminaries is simply not true. They do care and they do accept those degrees/credits as long as the Bible College/Seminary is regionally accredited.

So, it is within the church that we demand such. Facts, there are doctorates/degrees of every persuasion within the Christian community, speaking of one another as how stupid the different positions are.

==That paragraph does not make much sense to me. Could you clearify what you were trying to say here? Thanks.

Spurgeon, as great a preacher he was, is frowned upon in the world and by most modern day progressive Christian theologians.

==Outside of liberal/heretical camps I have not known that to be true. Please provide the names of Christian theologians who frown upon Mr. Spurgeon.

But, the reason Spurgeon/Paul/Peter, etc. were used so greatly by the Lord is that the more they were educated by the Holy Spirit, the greater the All Mighty became and the more they decreased in statue.

==As much as I admire the works of Spurgeon, I don't think I would put him on the same level as Paul or Peter. I doubt he would be comfortable with that either. :laugh:

Degrees do not make people prideful. Pride comes in many different forms. Some of us earn degrees so we can do what God has called us to do, others earn degrees to learn more about a subject, still others do it in order to feel more important than others (ie...pride). Only one of those reasons is sinful. Knowing what I know about Spurgeon and Paul, I doubt they would agree with your arguments. Education is not everything, but it is not a bad thing. The Holy Spirit calls us to study, to be faithful disciples in whatever ministry the Lord calls us in to. The fact is that sometimes those callings require a degree and even if they don't, earning a degree to learn more is not a bad thing.

Which means that the more educated you become in the Lord, the more the great commission burns in your heart to see the world saved by preaching the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ.

==Not sure how that fits in with your thesis that degree requirements are nothing more than Christians trying to fit in with the world. One can be educated in the Lord, on fire for His Word, have a big heart for missions, and be educated (ie...degrees) at the same time.

 

[Martin]

More observations

I have observed over the years as a Christian that the church has, and is being plunged into non-soul winning in a great part because of degrees/bible colleges period. Credited or otherwise.

==Clearly you are not aware of the fact that many evangelical seminaries require their students to be involved in soul winning. Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary and Liberty Baptist Theological Seminary have very active outreach programs for their students. Many other such schools do as well.

When the religion makes it imperative that a pastor requires a degree from their school, always remember that guess who can send his folks to garner this requirement, that's right Satan. Appearing as an angel of light, his folks will have in hand all that most churches require, a degree, so surely this man can lead us on to victory.

==Again you have been mislead away from the facts. Churches do not hire men to be pastors based soley on degrees from seminaries. Churches interview the man, spend time with the man, hear the man preach the Word, etc. Usually churches also look for men who have been ordained into the ministry of the Gospel by a Bible believing church. Many pastors have never been to seminary.

Point to make, 50 years ago when I got saved, you could witness on the job, in your apartment complex, soul winning night at the church, etc. Since then the world has changed to you must not do so anymore.

==Our church, and other churches I know of in this region, go door to door witnessing to people on a weekly basis. As for witnessing on the job, that has to do with the employer and not with seminary trained pastors. Before I became a history instructor I worked at a state University in the School of Education. Our department head had regular prayer meetings. In her office, in the hall, and in other people's office. I realize that she was far from the norm in that respect, but she was never told not to do that. Everyone who was involved did so on their own. The University never complained. So things are not as bad as you think.

So, along comes the angel of light with his degree, telling the church that God does not want them to preach/witness apart of what society says to. Well, do we obey God or man? The light goes under the bushel basket, the lost die without Christ to our shame. So we ponder the earned degree vs the bought one for our pastor/leaders. Oh well, the Word tells us that in the last days.........

==Again, you seem very confused about the reality of the situation. Bible teaching churches do not hire someone simply because he has a degree. Nor would they hire someone who denies the need for evangelism and discipleship.

 

[PilgrimPastor]

Degrees do not make people prideful. Pride comes in many different forms. Some of us earn degrees so we can do what God has called us to do, others earn degrees to learn more about a subject, still others do it in order to feel more important than others (ie...pride). Only one of those reasons is sinful.

Interestingly, it is easy for folks to deliver one good or even greatly blessed and anointed sermon, or even one of those once in a while with no education. The trouble is that it is very difficult to week in and week out teach, equip, and disciple Christians without a solid foundation from which to build on in personal study during each week.

Indeed, it is the difference between a guy who once built a really nice shed in his backyard and a professional contractor. Experience and training are tools God uses to prepare His servants.

Capewell: Suggesting that Spurgeon was not educated is a bit misleading. The man devoured books of all types; rather than going to seminary, he owned a personal seminary library and used the books for something other than decoration.

 

[Ed Edwards]

What do you mean "degree mill diploma"? I even wrote a three page Master's disertation ;(

( The subject was: Why does a Conservative College call it a 'Liberal Arts Degree' ? )

 

[Capewell]

I'll give it my best shot!

Of course Spurgeon was educated, and a real Holy Ghost led witness to the saving grace of the Lord Jesus Christ. Yes you can be both! Spurgeon/Peter/Paul all equal sinners saved by grace period. All works belong to Christ that the Holy Ghost worked through them to His plan. Who in Christian circles frown on Spurgeon? The vast majority, to include their universities, that believe that Christ paid the down payment on the cross for our salvation, and then their good works make the monthly note, just for one. My initial comments were about degrees, whether earned, accredited or not, or purchased in degree mills, that the devil uses to gain foothold within Bible Believing Chruches to water down core beliefs to the point that the lost do not hear the Gospel. How shall they hear without a preacher? Our Bible believing schools better begin to warn called preachers that when they begin to pastor they may warn the flock that at the rate it is going in this country, it will be a hate crime, as it was in Christ's day, to tell someone that without Chirst they will spend eternity in hell without hope. Yes, most major Christian denominations require the pastors of their fellowship churches to have a degree from their schools to be able to submit an application for the open pulpit. Where and why do your think the schisms occur? And finally, remember, both sides of the schisms graduated from the same schools. As for me, I'll just keep looking up, for I believe that the time is at hand. Even so come Lord Jesus.

 

[Martin]

Who in Christian circles frown on Spurgeon? The vast majority, to include their universities, that believe that Christ paid the down payment on the cross for our salvation, and then their good works make the monthly note, just for one.

==I asked you to provide the names of Christian theologians who frown upon Mr. Spurgeon. All you have provided is some sort of general statement.

My initial comments were about degrees, whether earned, accredited or not, or purchased in degree mills, that the devil uses to gain foothold within Bible Believing Chruches to water down core beliefs to the point that the lost do not hear the Gospel.

==Again, all you are doing is repeating the same assertions without providing any evidence. I, and others, have pointed out that your assertion here is a very dangerous over generalization.

Our Bible believing schools better begin to warn called preachers that when they begin to pastor they may warn the flock that at the rate it is going in this country, it will be a hate crime, as it was in Christ's day, to tell someone that without Chirst they will spend eternity in hell without hope.

==What does that have to do with degrees? Jesus told us what would happen (Matt 10:16-39). Degrees or no degrees that is going to happen. So maybe you could explain what that has to do with this issue.

Yes, most major Christian denominations require the pastors of their fellowship churches to have a degree from their schools to be able to submit an application for the open pulpit.

==That is not true of the largest "denomination" in the south, maybe the United States, the Baptists. Point of fact, a person does not have to hold a degree from "their" schools. There are plenty of Presbyterians, Pentecostals, Methodists, and others attending Baptist schools/seminaries.

Where and why do your think the schisms occur?

==Divisions occurred before and after the rise of seminaries (etc). Schisms also occur in churches where the pastor has never been to Bible College or Seminary. So you have failed to prove a direct connection.

 

[Capewell]

Martin

Take a break, we disagree.