Let me see if I understand this, Jesus didn't pay the penalty for all sin is that what you are saying? Or is the penalty for sin a different degree of punishment for sins and not death as scripture tells us, therefore Jesus didn't pay the penalty for all sin just the minor ones is that what you are saying? That is what it sounds like! Punishment for sin is death, the wages received for sin is death and Christ death paid for sin, no matter the sin bad or not so bad. Trying to see where a fair and just God requires two payments for sin, Christ death plus the sinners eternal degree of punishment and I just can't see God who is fair and just requiring double punishment for the same sin, which is what degrees of punishment teaches. Satan can then accuse God of not being fair and just and he would have a fairly good appeal!
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Degrees of punishement for the unbeliever
- Thread starter revmwc
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Let me see if I understand this, Jesus didn't pay the penalty for all sin is that what you are saying? Or is the penalty for sin a different degree of punishment for sins and not death as scripture tells us, therefore Jesus didn't pay the penalty for all sin just the minor ones is that what you are saying? That is what it sounds like! Punishment for sin is death, the wages received for sin is death and Christ death paid for sin, no matter the sin bad or not so bad. Trying to see where a fair and just God requires two payments for sin, Christ death plus the sinners eternal degree of punishment and I just can't see God who is fair and just requiring double punishment for the same sin, which is what degrees of punishment teaches. Satan can then accuse God of not being fair and just and he would have a fairly good appeal!
If Jesus paid the penalty of sin for Judas who had just hanged himself (or was about to) and all other reprobates past and future from the cross, then the issue of degrees of punishment is certainly irrelevant as stated in previous posts.
If Christ did not pay the penalty of sin for those the Father had not purposed to save, the issue of degrees of punishment for acts of rebellion committed against God's government is certainly relevant.
If Christ did not pay the penalty of sin for those the Father had not purposed to save, the issue of degrees of punishment for acts of rebellion committed against God's government is certainly relevant.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
If there are rewards for the saved why would there not be degrees of punishment for the lost?
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OldRegular
Well-Known Member
The first point, in my opinion, is nonsense. Jesus Christ made propitiation for ALL the sins of the Elect and only the Elect.
Revelation 20:12, 13 will shed some light on the fate of the lost for those willing to receive it.
Revelation 20:12, 13
12. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
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I believe there are and that is what I believe Jesus is teaching in these verses:
Mat 11:21 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.
Mat 11:22 But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you.
Mat 11:23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.
Mat 11:24 But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.
How else could they be understood?
It will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment than it will be for Capernaum. Sodom would have repented had they seen the miracles that Christ did. Therefore the wickedness of those in Capernaum is greater and they in turn will suffer a greater fate or degree of punishment.
Is this not His teaching?
Sin is sin. That is true.
But the consequences of sin is different--every time.
The consequence of speeding is different than leaving the seen of an accident.
The consequence of murder is greater than the consequence of lying.
Sin is breaking the law. But the gravity of the law is important. The greatest sin is the rejection of Christ. Perhaps the sin of the people of Capernaum was the influence they had on others to turn away from Christ.
A problem the human mind has is comprehension. We cannot comprehend the Lake of Fire and lack the information. We simply think "fire is fire," and that is it. But is it not possible, that God in his infinite wisdom and omnipotent power has made tiers of punishment that presently are beyond our comprehension that exist even in that place we know as the Lake of Fire?
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
I would agree with this response and add...
Hebrews 10:26-29
King James Version (KJV)
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
It just seems to me that the response to the revelation available can be seen to be worse for those who have been exposed to the Gospel.
Another passage that suggests this would be...
2 Peter 2:20-22
King James Version (KJV)
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
Here those who know the truth and turn away are distinguished from them that do not know the truth and at the very least their personal judgment would have been better, suggesting varying degrees of punishment.
God bless.
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This is the crux of it.
There are degrees of sin, and there may well be degrees of punishment. But all of them will involve a lake of burning sulfur.
Lets consider these arguments one by one.
1. Does the doctrine of degrees of punishment, i.e. the afterlife will be more tolerable for some than for others, deny being propitiated is a all or nothing deal? Nope. We are talking about those who are not propitiated. If we define eternal punishment as eternal separation from God, then every lost person receives the same eternal punishment in the afterlife.
2. Every rejecter of Christ gets eternal punishment, but they do not all suffer the same torment, which is based on God’s perfect justice for their individual misdeeds.
3. The doctrine of degrees of punishment (torment) agrees with (a) 1 John 5:12. and has nothing to do with (b) which refers to degrees of rewards for the saved.
4. The doctrine of degrees of punishment does not require “two” payments for sin. The lost receive the punishment God’s perfect justice requires, no more, no less.
5. Yes, the old adage is true, you cannot work your way to heaven, but you can dig yourself a deeper pit in Hell. Some, who have no ability to hear or understand the gospel, should be told to do as little harm as possible to themselves and their loved ones, and not to hinder God’s grace, which may fashion a millstone around their necks.
6. The doctrine of degrees of punishment does not assert that the torment will not result in agony in the flames as described in scripture.
7. This is a repeat of #2, the doctrine of degrees of punishment does not deny each and every lost person will receive eternal and everlasting punishment, as defined as separation from God.
Separation from God? I know of no such teaching in all of scripture. "If I make my bed in hell, thou art there". The punishment of the damned is "in the presence of the holy angels and the lamb". But since the damned have no savior they will suffer according to their deeds.
Satan cannot accuse God, that ended at the cross when he was thrown down as accuser forever. He has no argument, so we can't theorize on how he will continue to attempt thwarting God by ingenious darts of logic.
How can there be 'degrees of reward', when unmerited eternal life that is based solely on Christ's person and work is the greatest reward that God can possibly give? You can't exceed the 'greatest', there is nothing more.
Satan cannot accuse God, that ended at the cross when he was thrown down as accuser forever. He has no argument, so we can't theorize on how he will continue to attempt thwarting God by ingenious darts of logic.
How can there be 'degrees of reward', when unmerited eternal life that is based solely on Christ's person and work is the greatest reward that God can possibly give? You can't exceed the 'greatest', there is nothing more.
quantumfaith
Active Member
I think the word in Ps. 139 is "sheol", which I do not think is equivalent to hell or the lake of fire. It is simply used in this scripture to describe the omnipresence and authority of YHWH. I find it difficult to believe that God will be present with those judged and resigned to eternal justice....in fact I personally think that is the worse aspect of this sentence, the lack of God's presence.
I think what "separation from God" means is a severance of relationship with Him.
revmwc
1 jn 2 when correctly understood does not speak to this issue.
It leaves the righteous judgment of God....to Him:thumbs:
That which is anti thetical can be discovered from other texts not always found in the same text location.
This pastor denied the Covenant nature of the atonement. All sin is punished in the sinner or the Divine substitute.
this is an unbiblical suggestion.
all sin will be punished.....as the scripture declares ...with a JUST RECOMPENCE OF REWARD.
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
unbelief is sin...but there are many reasons for the punishment of all sin...all various sins....Jesus died for the sins of His people...the unbelieving sinner will die for his own sins....eternally separated and unrepentant in the second death.
1 jn 2 when correctly understood does not speak to this issue.
It leaves the righteous judgment of God....to Him:thumbs:
That which is anti thetical can be discovered from other texts not always found in the same text location.
This pastor denied the Covenant nature of the atonement. All sin is punished in the sinner or the Divine substitute.
this is an unbiblical suggestion.
all sin will be punished.....as the scripture declares ...with a JUST RECOMPENCE OF REWARD.
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
unbelief is sin...but there are many reasons for the punishment of all sin...all various sins....Jesus died for the sins of His people...the unbelieving sinner will die for his own sins....eternally separated and unrepentant in the second death.
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I think Martin Luther's words can lend some insight to this topic:
The person who can rightly divide Law and Gospel has reason to thank God. He is a true theologian. I must confess that in times of temptation I do not always know how to do it. To divide Law and Gospel means to place the Gospel in heaven, and to keep the Law on earth; to call the righteousness of the Gospel heavenly, and the righteousness of the Law earthly; to put as much difference between the righteousness of the Gospel and that of the Law, as there is difference between day and night. If it is a question of faith or conscience, ignore the Law entirely. If it is a question of works, then lift high the lantern of works and the righteousness of the Law. If your conscience is oppressed with a sense of sin, talk to your conscience. Say: “You are now groveling in the dirt. You are now a laboring ass. Go ahead, and carry your burden. But why don’t you mount up to heaven? There the Law cannot follow you!” Leave the ass burdened with laws behind in the valley. But your conscience, let it ascend with Isaac into the mountain.
In civil life obedience to the law is severely required. In civil life Gospel, conscience, grace, remission of sins, Christ Himself, do not count, but only Moses with the lawbooks. If we bear in mind this distinction, neither Gospel nor Law shall trespass upon each other. The moment Law and sin cross into heaven, i.e., your conscience, kick them out. On the other hand, when grace wanders unto the earth, i.e., into the body, tell grace: “You have no business to be around the dreg and dung of this bodily life. You belong in heaven.”
By his compromising attitude Peter confused the separation of Law and Gospel. Paul had to do something about it. He reproved Peter, not to embarrass him, but to conserve the difference between the Gospel which justifies in heaven, and the Law which justifies on earth.
In civil life obedience to the law is severely required. In civil life Gospel, conscience, grace, remission of sins, Christ Himself, do not count, but only Moses with the lawbooks. If we bear in mind this distinction, neither Gospel nor Law shall trespass upon each other. The moment Law and sin cross into heaven, i.e., your conscience, kick them out. On the other hand, when grace wanders unto the earth, i.e., into the body, tell grace: “You have no business to be around the dreg and dung of this bodily life. You belong in heaven.”
By his compromising attitude Peter confused the separation of Law and Gospel. Paul had to do something about it. He reproved Peter, not to embarrass him, but to conserve the difference between the Gospel which justifies in heaven, and the Law which justifies on earth.
Hi Farmer34,
1) Here are four verses for you to consider. Isaiah 59:2, 2 Corinthians 6:14, Jude 1:13 and Matthew 8:12. Sin causes a separation, cutting off fellowship with light, and results in being banished to eternal darkness. Thus eternal punishment includes eternal separation in outer darkness. See also Revelation 22:15.
2) The lost will suffer in the presence of the holy angels and the Lamb (Rev. 14:10) but will be in a separated unholy condition, called eternal darkness.
3) Not sure where your objection that Satan cannot accuse God fits into the discussion of degrees of punishment?
4) The the doctrine of degrees of rewards is also taught in scripture, such as entering heaven abundantly or as one escaping from a fire. But lets stick to the topic, degrees of punishment.
2 Thessalonians 1:8-9: 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might. (NIV)
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