Degrees of punishment in Hell/in Heaven?

[zrs6v4]

This portion here (started and finished by God from justification to glorificiation) I believe concerns more specific to salvation than the believer living out his christian life. That is IF you are refering back to the Romans 8passage.

Life/ rebirth begins around justification and ends with glorification. Just as it seems, I really believe that the Christian Life is not made up of simply individual choices but is held 100% in the sovereign hand of God over all our choices. I am probably misunderstanding you, but I don't really see how salvation and Christian life can be separated as they are part of each other.

If the above is true, specicially toward our christian living, then God works in some believers to be fairly lazy in their christian walk as well as very undiscerning in some/many of their activities both public and private. Whereas in others others He makes them to live a more holy in life and conversation. In both of the cases it is the not the persons choice to live in such a way but God's moving them to live in each way because it is God who does all things, start to finish in believers. Therfore the desires of both are initiated by God and completed by Him, in the one to live continuously right before the Lord and in the other to live in a much less desirous manner than the first. (as I see it)

Kinda, I see it as people are responsible totally but completely dependent on God for any wise choice to whatever appointed level He gives them for their purpose. So it isn't God's fault that they were lazier or more undiscerning, but is a result of their own sin. God just chooses He gives greater faith and gifts to according to what the big picture is.

As such, we can never forget our responsiblity in both our life and conversation. Without question God does moves us to holiness but we must respond in faith to walk in it. Some seem to forget this.

I think I understand where your coming from and I'm sure you see my view on this as well. Unfortunately, we are totally responsible, totally sinful, and as a result all responses are of sin left totally alone. By the grace of God alone can we do what is right in Christian living. On the other hand I agree that this doesn't send me home to the couch to wait for God to give me some special feeling, in fact, I have no idea what this secret will of God is doing. I act in a totally responsible way by faith and obedience. I am just aware by faith that all of what I am doing is by the grace of God. So 60 years down the road of totally focusing on God's word and all it says I may look back and know that every last wise choice I made was by the grace and sovereign hand of the Lord and none was by my own will, not even faith. The way you explained it seems to be a way that would put the Lord to the test, which biblically I don't dare to do such a thing as to test God and His sovereignty. Is that where you were going?

The rewards I spoke of refer to that responsibility of our self sacrifice and obedience now that we are in Christ.

These rewards reveal the extent of self sacrifice and obedience these people were willing to give.

So if I applied the rewards idea to what I just carried on about then in a sense yes I live my entire life in faith and obedience by what seems to be my free will, but when I get to heaven I look back and see the big picture to where God was totally controlling all events down to the very least of my decisions. How? I have no clue... My response to this in heaven would be to lay my crown at His feet.

 

[Allan]

Life/ rebirth begins around justification and ends with glorification. Just as it seems, I really believe that the Christian Life is not made up of simply individual choices but is held 100% in the sovereign hand of God over all our choices. I am probably misunderstanding you, but I don't really see how salvation and Christian life can be separated as they are part of each other.

I am not saying the christian life is made up 'only' of choices but you can not deny our lives as believers are defined by our choices.

I take some 'potential' issue with your statement that those choices made are held 100% in the sovereign hand of God. This could be 'my' misunderstanding here but if I understand you correctly you are to use the Reformed view of 'soveriegn', and if so then it seems you are implying those unrighteous and sinful things done are due to God's direct involvment in bringing those believers to choose to do them. IF this is the case then yes, I take issue with such a statement. If not, then skip

Secondly, salvation is apart of our christian walk but our christian walk is more than just that. Just because we are saved does not mean we now will walk without sin and be holy. There is choice there and being saved does not negate it. This is typically part of the Reformed view brother so I'm not so sure I understand you contention against it. The reformed position states that when one is regenerate, this does not automatically mean they good and holy in all things but that they must willingly submit and be obedient. God does not actively bring His poeple into sin, as your use of 100% soveriegn over their choices, implies.

Maybe it isn't you who misunderstood me, but me who misunderstood you :laugh:

Kinda, I see it as people are responsible totally but completely dependent on God for any wise choice to whatever appointed level He gives them for their purpose.

So are you saying God determines to make some of His people more godly and God-fearing than others? That He makes some to be more like His Son than others? That is not a Reformed teaching that I have heard of.

So it isn't God's fault that they were lazier or more undiscerning, but is a result of their own sin. God just chooses He gives greater faith and gifts to according to what the big picture is.

Acatully brother, what you just described 'is' God's fault. They were lazier because God didn't want them to be as holy, or godly as another therefore God didn't give then what they needed to make them as the other person. Their choices were conditioned according to God's plan for them 'to be' more unlike Christ than another.

Unfortunately, we are totally responsible, totally sinful, and as a result all responses are of sin left totally alone.

See, here you loose me again. God has given to every believer every spiritual blessing and gifted us accordingly for the ministries He desires us to fufill. Yes when we fall short is our responsibility, but it is such because God was moving us toward another direction, righteousness and we chose differently, for whatever the personal reason was. When we sin it is not because God leaves us totally alone in that area of our life.

By the grace of God alone can we do what is right in Christian living.

Now here we agree with the addition of 'by faith' :thumbs:

On the other hand I agree that this doesn't send me home to the couch to wait for God to give me some special feeling, in fact, I have no idea what this secret will of God is doing. I act in a totally responsible way by faith and obedience.

Yes but you must choose to walk by faith in this or not.
You must choose to walk in the flesh as a believer or the Spirit.

I am just aware by faith that all of what I am doing is by the grace of God. So 60 years down the road of totally focusing on God's word and all it says I may look back and know that every last wise choice I made was by the grace and sovereign hand of the Lord and none was by my own will, not even faith.

First, I do not understand your usage of 'the grace of God'.
Are you saying that only when you do right things the grace of God is there and when you don't it is not there and that is why you do it??


Secondly, I'm not sure what you keep meaning when you say 'by faith', because you use it so differently each time.

Faith as a verb simply put is - the action that proceeds from what you believe is truth.

Faith as a noun simply put is - all that is believed regarding a certain view that establishes your actions/life.

The way you explained it seems to be a way that would put the Lord to the test, which biblically I don't dare to do such a thing as to test God and His sovereignty. Is that where you were going?

No it had nothing to do with testing God.
God is at all times in our life, in every situation in our life (as believers) moving us toward righteousness but we are told to walk by faith. We are responsible for the life we live before God and that is why we are held accountable.

Brother, It might be me but I'm not sure where you are coming from in these positions of yours because they are not typically espoused by most of the Reformed. In fact it 'seems' to go much further. Now, like I said it could be just me not understanding you so please clarify cause I not 'accusing' of anything.

So if I applied the rewards idea to what I just carried on about then in a sense yes I live my entire life in faith and obedience by what seems to be my free will, but when I get to heaven I look back and see the big picture to where God was totally controlling all events down to the very least of my decisions. How? I have no clue... My response to this in heaven would be to lay my crown at His feet.

So you have God controlling all your decisions, including the ones in which you choose to stand in sin/rebellion. See you lost me here again.

Also brother, in the Reformed position it is only when we become regenerate that we actaully and only now have 'free will' to obey or sin of our own choosing.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Heaven is 77 degrees

hell is infinity degrees

purgatory is 166 degrees with humidity

:smilewinkgrin:

.........................:laugh:

 

[OldRegular]

Originally Posted by zrs6v4
I am trying to just stay out and listen to what is being said, but are you hinting that there is only one equal righteousness, and one equal condemnation?

It appears that way, and I would say it appears that OR agrees.

Allen. Please don't try to speak for me and my toy sword. I have said nothing about condemnation. I simply state that the only righteousness we have is that imputed by Jesus Christ. You state in your post#13 the following:

No. There are two types of righteousness spoken of in scripture. One is eternally righteous before God with respect to sin debt.

The other is in respect to our walk before the Lord which is what Paul is dealing with in 2 Tim 4:8 concern the very crown of righteousness.

I have already quoted from Isaiah regarding self righteousness. Read what the Apostle Paul states about righteousness.

Philippians 3:5-9
4. Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
5. Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
6. Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
7. But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
8. Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
9. And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

As for rewards simply consider what Scripture teaches about the Saints:

Romans 8:17. And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

1 John 3:2. Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

That is good enough for me!

 

[zrs6v4]

ALLAN

I am heading to work now and this is definitely a good conversation. Some questions you raised and comments you made will require some thinking, so I will reply later. I understand there a ton of crazy theologies out there and I myself have been guilty of some silly beliefs that aren't biblical. On the other hand my goal is not to get more or less reformed so it is possible that my view differs from the typical reformed view in this specific topic. I could be off here, but in my mind I have this big concept of how things intricately work together namely God's sovereignty and our choices. So after I compile my understanding then we can discuss whether it is or isn't biblical and it very well may be that I am wrong in my view.

really quick, when I talked about faith I has the Hebrews 11:1 definition on my mind more than anything. Knowing without seeing, my point was that I can be living in my choices daily and know without seeing that God is somehow working in all events. I believe the Author puts it that by faith we know there is a better place than this and that God created the world with the word of His power. So we dont logically understand how these things can be or make sense of everything, but by faith we understand that God is working all things out for the good of those who love Him.

I will be more specific in what I think in regards to the new birth.

 

[zrs6v4]

Also brother, in the Reformed position it is only when we become regenerate that we actaully and only now have 'free will' to obey or sin of our own choosing.

I think you are way off from understanding my point . I would never even dream of connecting rebirth to personal holiness which is impossible for us and we understand this more as we go on. The Spirit reveals sin and righteousness to us in that we see our filthy rags to some degree and realize we are hopeless in and of ourselves. This is why we cast ourselves on Christ for mercy in repentance and faith in Him alone. This is a continual occurance in a regenerate life. When we are born of God we begin a life that
does enable us to make "good" choices pleasing to God by faith. If we are not born of God we do not please God and cannot. So it is true and I agree when we are born again that we are enabled to choose good for the first time. Our life with conscious choices to do what is pleasing before God is a human way of seeing it, but seeing it through God's eyes He is sovereign totally over all of our choices in a way that He recieves all glory for our good and we recieve all credit for our evil, but both working out for God's purposes and plan by His complete control.

 

[Allan]

I think you are way off from understanding my point . I would never even dream of connecting rebirth to personal holiness which is impossible for us and we understand this more as we go on. The Spirit reveals sin and righteousness to us in that we see our filthy rags to some degree and realize we are hopeless in and of ourselves. This is why we cast ourselves on Christ for mercy in repentance and faith in Him alone. This is a continual occurance in a regenerate life. When we are born of God we begin a life that does enable us to make "good" choices pleasing to God by faith. If we are not born of God we do not please God and cannot. So it is true and I agree when we are born again that we are enabled to choose good for the first time. Our life with conscious choices to do what is pleasing before God is a human way of seeing it

See, I told you I just needed you to clarify:smilewinkgrin:

but seeing it through God's eyes He is sovereign totally over all of our choices in a way that He recieves all glory for our good and we recieve all credit for our evil, but both working out for God's purposes and plan by His complete control.

Hmmm...
I don't want to throw off your thread here brother, and it has been quite engaging, thank you. :thumbs:
But for an aside or different thread even:
If God is totally sovereign then no credit can go to any man for evil/sinful choices. The whole point of absolute or total sovereignty is God and God alone determines what will happen both in positive and negitive respects. If God gives mere humans the option or right to do anything (even sin) then God must give up His sovereignty and share it with man.


HOWEVER.. With respect to your thread. I was looking over something else today and ran across another passage from Jesus about greater and lesser punishments in hell.
Mat 23:13 But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! Because you devour widows' houses, and for a pretense make long prayers. Therefore you will receive greater condemnation [judgment].

Here is John Gill on the passage with respect to 'condemnation':

therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation; both on account of their plundering and distressing the poor, the widows, and the fatherless; and also because of their hypocrisy in doing this under the cover of religion and holiness. Hence it appears, that there are degrees of punishment in hell, and that hypocrites, and all such who oppress the poor, under the mask of godliness, supposing gain to be that, will be partakers of the greatest degree

 

[zrs6v4]

If God is totally sovereign then no credit can go to any man for evil/sinful choices. The whole point of absolute or total sovereignty is God and God alone determines what will happen both in positive and negitive respects. If God gives mere humans the option or right to do anything (even sin) then God must give up His sovereignty and share it with man.

I have been involved in threads about this and I agree it may be better off saving it for another thread . I do disagree with your first logical statement that God cannot be sovereign over man's choices good and evil without being blamed for sin. This is why I said I cannot understand how God uses man's sin sovereignly without himself tempting or being the cause of sin. I do see this going really far if I keep going on.

HOWEVER.. With respect to your thread. I was looking over something else today and ran across another passage from Jesus about greater and lesser punishments in hell.
Mat 23:13 But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! Because you devour widows' houses, and for a pretense make long prayers. Therefore you will receive greater condemnation [judgment].

I've been pondering this for the last few days, and I do think that there are greater punishments in hell. I guess I have changed my opinion or never really come to a final conclusion on this, it is tough but this passage seems pretty clear to me.

 

[zrs6v4]

The whole point of absolute or total sovereignty is God and God alone determines what will happen both in positive and negitive respects. If God gives mere humans the option or right to do anything (even sin) then God must give up His sovereignty and share it with man.

Dangit, Now you have me interested, can you please explain in greater depth of how you hold that God's sovereignty is merely determination. Thanks