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Degrees of separation
- Thread starter webdog
- Start date
In my finite mind, separation is the absence of God's grace and goodness. I suppose that in eternity there can be varying degrees of separation, but my mind cannot conceive of it in our current state. Separation is like total darkness. Total darkness is the absence of all light. You cannot have degrees of total darkness. If you have any light coming in, that is not total darkness - you only have partial darkness. (I've been caving in WV and have experienced total darkness - man, that is scary.) Same thing with separation from God - I don't think he is going to impart any grace or goodness to people in hell, so in that sense there are no degrees of separation. However, it seems that wrath/punishment can be meted out in degrees. At least that's the way I conceive of it. But like I said, things could be different in eternity in ways that we cannot conceive of now.webdog said:
JustChristian
New Member
Outsider said:
What is the LoF?
It seems a viable possibility that degrees of seperation and degrees of God's wrath go hand in hand.
In suffering the unimaginable torture of hell, they are separated from God until they burn into ashes and cease to exist. This punishment, as Jesus says, is an everlasting punishment. Matt 25:46 -They do not come back to life
There may be levels of heat regarding this destruction process which define the level of separation.
Maybe the more evil a person was on earth, he just may burn a little longer before turning into ashes.
"Render every man according to his deeds" yet I don't know exactly how that is carried out.
They cease to exist, burn up, (perish) so they do not live forever to be eternally tormented. Psalm 37:20
My two cents
In suffering the unimaginable torture of hell, they are separated from God until they burn into ashes and cease to exist. This punishment, as Jesus says, is an everlasting punishment. Matt 25:46 -They do not come back to life
There may be levels of heat regarding this destruction process which define the level of separation.
Maybe the more evil a person was on earth, he just may burn a little longer before turning into ashes.
"Render every man according to his deeds" yet I don't know exactly how that is carried out.
They cease to exist, burn up, (perish) so they do not live forever to be eternally tormented. Psalm 37:20
My two cents
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Joe, there is no such thing as the annialation of the lost or better known as the doctrine of annialation. That is a Jehovah Witness and Seventh Day Adventist falicy, more specifically is a false teaching.Joe said:
Man is spirit, the spirit is eternal and was created to be so. That is why scripture describes their torrents by using words like eternal, forever, dieth (dies) not, et...
The first death is seperation from God but there is a hope of rebirth in this one for all that will believe.
The second death is also seperation from God but with no hope for them. Theirs is eternal 'damnation' not annialation. You wont find that taught anywhere in the scriptures.
BTW - The context of Ps 37:20 is about them 'physically' dieing and no longer being there but removed and righteous remain. Please keep it in context.
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I don't know the terms for alot of these beliefs. I just read the bible on my own. It appears you are correct, they call this annialation. I will look into it further, thanks.Allan said:
The few verses which speak of everlasting is not talking about the time period one is tormented. I believe not all the wicked will burn up quickly, as Lazarus was able to say a few sentences out of concern for his family possibly ending up in hell, this was while he was being tormented. It wasn't the "gnashing of teeth torment" or he wouldn't be able to communicate.
Verses which speak of eternal life (live forever) often drop the word eternal when speaking of death. Because we can't be dying forever, perishing forever.
When examining the bible verses which address eternal life, you can see they compare ETERNAL life to it's opposite. Only eternal life is possible.
I understand how the verses could be read torment is forever. Even if we could read these very few verses to mean eternal torment, it would go against God's nature. This tells us we are interpreting the verses wrong. But again, I understand how you can read it that way.
It's just not possible that the Lord will watch his own children suffer an eternal unimaginable tortureous death day in and day out forever and ever, gnashing of teeth etc...because they rejected him.
In our depravity, we couldn't possibly do that to our own children. 99% of child abuse in society doesn't even come close to this level if sickness
We are made in the image of God. There are wonderful, selfless people in the world who care deeply about others. They take good care of the Lord's creations, people and animals (not good works, it's much more than that) and love them to death while I sit on my bum typing to you. Someone is feeding an old lady, gave up their career to ensure she is taken care of, they love her selflessly.
They are selfless compared to you and I, we can only wish to be like them.
In your line of thinking, these folks will suffer eternal torment, knashing of teeth, pain like we CAN'T IMAGINE.
And it will go on forever.
This is not a God of love, or justice. This is not the God of the Bible.
Our justice system on earth isn't that perverted. In the real world, even in our depravity, we don't allow this. It's horrific. We have the death penalty. We do not cause others to suffer needlessly for long periods of time, including the Jeffrey Dahmer's of the world. They even die within minutes.
This is not the theme of the bible. It does not back up a God like this. You can see this way before he ever get's deep into the hell verses.
He is not cruel, and will not sit there watching my son (who as rejected God so far it appears) burn up in eternal torment. He wouldn't do that to me, I am faithful to him. Nor could I be in heaven just dismissing the fact at that very moment, my son is enduring horrific pain.
But he may destroy my son, and just the few minutes it takes to carry out this horrific, unimaginable torture causes a sickness in the pit of my stomache.
Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell[/B].
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Sorry, this statement should read....
The few verses which speak of everlasting is not talking about the time period one is tormented. I believe not all the wicked will burn up quickly, as in the story of Lazarus, the rich man was able to say a few sentences out of concern for his family possibly ending up in hell, this was while he was being tormented. It wasn't the "gnashing of teeth torment" or he wouldn't be able to communicate.
The few verses which speak of everlasting is not talking about the time period one is tormented. I believe not all the wicked will burn up quickly, as in the story of Lazarus, the rich man was able to say a few sentences out of concern for his family possibly ending up in hell, this was while he was being tormented. It wasn't the "gnashing of teeth torment" or he wouldn't be able to communicate.
JustChristian
New Member
Allan said:
Is that being presented as someplace different than Hell? Also, some people talk about Hades as another distinct place. Personally, I believe in one place for the unsaved, Hell.
BaptistBeliever,
Here is why I view the two differently (hell and Lake of fire)
Rev 20:13-15
13) And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14) And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15) And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Here is why I view the two differently (hell and Lake of fire)
Rev 20:13-15
13) And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14) And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15) And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Sorry I didn't respond to this, I didn't notice it.BaptistBeliever said:
Yes, it is speaking of two distinct and different places, just as Outsider shows in the scripture presented. Hell itself is cast into the Lake of Fire. The Lake of Fire however isn't an issue till the final judgment of the Great White Throne. Hell is like a prison to hold those who are awaiting their judgment which is set in the Lake of Fire.
Hades is hell or better it is known in the Greek understanding as the abode of the dead or dead men's spirits. They are not technically two different places however Hades and Shoel are two different or distinct places though we see them translated at times as the same word - 'grave'.
Your last sentence is yours to believe however you have to reconcile that with verse which states that death and "hell" are cast into the lake of fire (another distinct and seperate place, thus 'hell' being 'cast into' it).
Joe said:
Joe I would ask that you do A LOT more research on the eternality of the spirit of man as well as the bible doctrine of Hell and it's eternal punishments.
BTW- you would not be in heaven dismissing anything. You would know that God reached out to them and full well the truth denied and are absolutely deserving of the eternal punishment they will receive for their rebellion, just as the angels who rebelled will.
Let me use aspects of your own illistration of a child:
Take the Anti-Christ for example. He is the son of a mother and has a father. He might even have brothers and sisters, aunts, cousins and uncles who love him and watch out for him. And some of them might even be or get saved before or during the time of the AC's accention to power. Not to mention the false prophet who is another man with family members. And yet God has no qualms about throwing Satan and the beast (the AC) and the false prophet into the Lake of Fire where they will be tormented day AND night - for ever and ever (meaning without it ever coming to an end):
I would encourage to you read maybe even this or this on the subject. There are thousands more this is jsut to show you the argument has greater biblcal support than annialationism which has none.
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If they were the same thing they would have been used interchangably either through out the NT (or even in the OT) because it would have been somthing everyone knew of and therefore used. But also in the specific book of Revelation the usage would have been interchangable. However we know that the Lake of Fire is only mentioned in Revelation and even then it is only after the Great White Throne Jugdment.webdog said:
However in the book of the Revelation it is never used interchangable with hell but as distinct from hell.
Question:
If it were figurative then what is the figurative language representing??
Remember hell gave up the dead to be judged and then all the dead not found in the Book of life were cast into the LoF, and death and hell were cast into it as well. Satan, the Beast (AC) and the false prophet were cast there too. All that is representive of sin and or specific of sin are judged and removed from God's creation (both seen and unseen) to that of the LoF.
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Allan said:
I agree with what I bolded in your post above. I'll also add that the flames burn forever.
In that case, their family will probably understand the severity of the situation
This is an exact opposite situation as to the one I described to you prior.
Evil people exist in the world but most of us know many more good, conservative, tender hearted, loving folks who appear to have difficulty believing in what they cannot see. We consider them rejecting our Lord though because they lack faith. Believing in something they cannot see appears difficult.
They babysit for us, they are our best friends, our spouses, our children and our parents. We love them.
I feel sorry for people who believe these kind folks will be tormented day and night forever and ever by our righteous Lord because they rejected him on earth. He hasn't shown his face to most, or performed a miracle to most people so we must believe what we cannot see.
I feel even more sorry for people who have somehow found a way to jusify this in their minds, to me, that is some hocus pocus. Yet when this situation occurs on earth, we call it evil.
Our Lord has killed innocent humans yes, as he killed all of the boy babies in Moses' day except our Lord. We can tell ourselves there was a reason, they might have all been evil babies but it still happened.
Our Lord doesn't torture his children unnecessarily forever and ever, though he has killed them. This goes against the whole theme of the Bible and his nature, even if we could read those verses that way. Again, we would have to know we are reading them wrong.
You are in the norm regarding beliefs brother so it's expected. Such is life.
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You seem to have a distorted understanding of God's Holiness and our sin.Joe said:
First, they are NOT His children. His children are those saved by faith. The rest, as says the scriptures, are of their father the devil - Satan.
You can try to sugar coat those peoples rejection and hatred of Christ all you want. Those kind and good people whom we love will go to hell and their judgment is eternal, but the question is why?
Because they spat upon the eternal offering of Christ, despised Him whom the Father loved without end and hated that which He gave for them - His own life. They shouted to God through their rejection that there is no god over them and desired for the Eternal Judge to make His judgment upon their righteousness alone. They desire this because the Son's payment was nothing more than a worthless waste of blood and time.
Secondly, This IS the theme of the bible that God is both loving and Just, is both Father and Judge. God does so love but that does not negate the fact that God must deal not only with the sin but the eternal value of sin and the spirit of man like all other spirits which is created to never die. The resurrected bodies will NEVER taste the annialation of death because death is of no consequence to these bodies. The glorified bodies will never die just as their spirit will not and that which was at one time able to die (corruptable) is now made unable to taste death (incorruptable) due to the change.
Also, You do realize that sin does not just affect you but everyone and thing around you. And that the judgment which deals with your 'little' sins encompasses the extent of your sin in the lives of others as well for generations and on ward. You are still being affected by Adams sin, your great grandfathers sins, your friends sins. The impact of your sins will be judged along with the sin committed. Did you ever wonder why God judges all sin and sinners at the Great White Throne Judgment, at a time when sin and it's effects will go no farther into creation or time?
Thirdly, the Lord has killed NO innocent ones. Not one, ever! There is none righteous no not one!
Not only do we deserve hell but we deserve eternity in Hell.
And lastly: What is the point or reason for flames that burn forever when there will be no need after everything is annialated shortly after being placed in hell?
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There are various meanings for his children in the bible depending upon usage, you gave one example.Allan said:
We are all God's children, saved or unsaved. My son is my son whether he rejects me or not. This is the only verse I found so far but it will do. Everyone dies in the flood except Noah and his family. So at this time, they are unsaved. (later they have a chance to be saved when the Lord preaches to them)
Genesis 6:4-6 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.
*5And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
*6And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
I'm not sugar coating anything, thank you.
We were talking of the people we love except now you have done a 360 degree turn and accused them of hating Christ.
Before getting saved, I didn't hate Christ. Didn't know him to hate him.
Agreed. They die, that's eternal
I don't know what to say, so I'll let this bedon't yell please
Satan, false prophet, and the Anti Christ will burn in hell to be tormented day and night forever and ever. We already agreed upon this
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In reading, I found a new verse which appears to indicate eternal torment
Rev 14:11
"And the smoke of their torent ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who woship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name"
Gotta chew on this one for a bit....
Rev 14:11
"And the smoke of their torent ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who woship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name"
Gotta chew on this one for a bit....
Brother Joe,
I would have to disagree with this. We are all God's creation, but only those that are born of His Spirit are His children. Christ tells us this when He says:
Mat 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
Not knowing Him, is hating Him. Until you began following after him, you loved the world. If you love the world or the things of the world, according to Christ, you hate Him.
Like you brother, I know many people that are "Good people" who will end up eternally seperated from God because they fail to trust in Christ. We must remember that they are only good by our standards. None of us are good by the Lords standards. What we say is good, God says is filthy rags. So it is not the morality of a person that God looks at, like we often do.