Delayed Response

[Darrell C]

Due to the great effort Brother Joseph has put into his responses I would at this time like to respond in this thread, primarily because the other thread was closed (and not to Moderators, if you could open that again it would be appreciated).

The original posts can be viewed here.

Originally Posted by Darrell C
First note that condemnation came to all men.

That includes the Elect. They are not secluded from that general group w call sinners, and natural, and lost.

Secondly, the text dot not say every man is saved, but as condemnation came upon all men, so too, the Gift, not salvation, came to all men....

Brother Darrell,

You left off the last part of the verse, it says, "...the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life." (Romans 5:18), thus if you interpret the "all men" in this verse as every human being, we see the effect of the free gift is "unto justification", thus you have every human being justified with your interpretation, thus your interpretation cannot be correct.

First, I would ask you to address the point made. I said...

Originally Posted by Darrell C View Post
Some take that view, so I will ask that you explain the meaning found in...


Romans 5:18

King James Version (KJV)

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

And I add the note:

"Charisma "is found in vv.15 and 16, dorea found in v.17, so the argument "the free gift" does not appear in the text is not a good one, I think the translators were correct and saw that it is in the context. It actually makes it clear that salvation is not universal.

"All men" cannot be manipulated as the world is in discussions like these....

You are shifting the focus and in so doing evade answering the question. In view is the fact that the free gift came upon all men, which means no-one is restricted. As far as being justified that applies only to those who believe, and does not change the fact that the free gift came to all men.

And I have highlighted what you have stated was "left out."

Originally Posted by Darrell C
Now we can supplement the teaching in this verse with...


Romans 5:15-17

King James Version (KJV)

15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.


The primary point is that condemnation came upon all men, which laces all men in the same category, and that it is also by One that the free gift came upon those you deny it describes...all men. Since we cannot eradicate the all men, as seen in the initial response, the conclusion is that in view is not the giving of salvation, but the giving of the Gift, which is repeatedly stated as being motivated by God's love for the world and those that dwell there.

Again, if you interpret the "all men" to mean every human being you have another problem because Romans 5:16 states that those who receive the free gift, receive, "free gift is of many offences unto justification.", thus you would have every human being becoming justified, thus again your interpretation does not fit the context.

Not exactly. In v.16 the simple point is that "the free gift is of many offences unto justification." We do not have to impose that all men are justified, just what it states, which is that "even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men."

Thus my interpretation is not so much interpretation, simply conveying what the text actually states.

Also, you speak of God loving every human being, but how does that reconcile with "but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth" (Psalm 11:5) and "The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity" (Psalm 5:5)?


God bless,

Brother Joe

Let me ask you this: do you consider yourself above those that are wicked, love violence and, and work iniquity?

Were you free from these charges before you were saved?

After you were saved?

The reconciliation is pretty simple, it is because of our sin, of which all we stand guilty of before Holy God, and despite our sin...Christ died for us.

It is true that an unbroken pattern of refusal to repent leads to God withdraw from sinners, however, we can distinguish between the Covenants and what was available to men under them, as well as understand that it is expected that God would hate sin and those who commit it.

Lastly, you have yet to show why the text does not mean what it states.

Here it is again:


Romans 5:15-17

King James Version (KJV)


18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.


Just as condemnation came to all men, so too the free gift has come upon all men. That does not mean that all receive the free gift, only that it is available to all men, which corresponds to the rest of the New Testament teachings that show men receiving the truth and rejecting it, with a particular emphasis on rejecting the Ministry of the Comforter, Who is at this time, and exclusively in this Age...convicting men.

And that conviction does not necessitate regeneration.

And I apologize, Brother Joseph, I read your message got about it, lol. I am about out of time, and reposting the posts is going to take some time.

Hope you're having a great holiday, and I will get back to this as time allows.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Originally Posted by Darrell C
I think that whether God maintains a love for people after rejecting the revelation He has provided for them is a topic for another discussion. In view here is the general principle that God is said to love the world, and to send the Gospel to every man. He is not willing that any should perish, which is a statement that cannot achieve the moderation to "...except for those He never loved."...

You state, "He is not willing that any should perish", I believe you are quoting from 2 Peter 3:9, "9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance." Peter states his audience that the Lord is not slack concerning his promise is "toward us", therefore he must be referring not willing that "any" of the elect perish as he was talking "toward us" not "toward every human being".

This statement follows this:


2 Peter 2:20-22

King James Version (KJV)

20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.


They have received the Knowledge of the Lord and Savior, Who is The Way of Righteousness...

...and they turned from it.

There was no conversion, they are still dogs and pigs.

The Holy Commandment delivered to them is to believe on Christ, which is revealed to them through the Ministry of the Comforter.

This verse...


2 Peter 3:9

King James Version (KJV)

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.


No commentary will ever change this basic truth: God does not take pleasure in the consequences of sin, He is not willing that any should perish. That does not just apply to the elect, which is illustrated by the fact that the free gift is given to all men (which does not mean all men receive it) and that the Way of Righteousness is given unto unregenerate men:


John 16:7-9

King James Version (KJV)

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;

Also, if you take the "any" to mean every human being, it means his will is not that any should perish, but we know n the end some do perish, thus His will would not be done, but how would that be consistent with "of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:"? How could he be working it after the counsel of his own will if he wills none should perish, but some do?

God can maintain a position that He does not want anyone to perish while maintaining a position of righteous judgment.

You're kind of over-thinking this, brother.

We don't combat the holiness of God with how He feels about it.

Here is an example of this:


Mark 10:17-22

King James Version (KJV)

17 And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?

18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

19 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.

20 And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth.

21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.

22 And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

Originally Posted by Darrell C
That He chastises His Children is also not in dispute. ."...

Does God love those he doesn't chastise?

God loves the whole world.

We need not put John 3:16 in the past tense, lol.

And I would suggest that there is a difference between chastisement and judgment: a child is chastised, a convicted murderer is punished. The difference is that the child is not judged on an eternal basis, but is on a temporal. And we shouldn't think that unbelievers are not, in some sense of the word, chastised, meaning that God will punish unbelievers for their sin in this world as well.

Originally Posted by Darrell C
So again we see the importance of the revelation provided man, and their condition in direct relation to their obedience. In Chapter Ten the Writer makes it clear those who reject Christ, the Comforter, and the New Covenant...will be punished with more severity than those who rejected the First Covenant (Moses' Law). The reason is that Christ is the ultimate Sacrifice and Covenant that all other Covenants pictured and pointed to.."...


Hebrews chapter 10 is not talking about someone who is unsaved rejecting Christ.

In point of fact that is precisely what he is talking about.

The passage in context states, "26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?"


Notice verse 27, the person who commits this act possesses a "certain fearful looking for of of judgment", thus this person cannot be one who has become unsaved

They themselves do not have that fearful looking for of judgment, Brother Joseph, that is insight on our part. We know that is all they have to look forward to...they do not. For if they did have that fear they would repent.

And I agree, they did not become "unsaved," for they were never saved to begin with.

Consider:


Hebrews 10:29

King James Version (KJV)

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?


The above does not describe a person who has been saved and then sinned to the point where they lose their salvation, it describes one who has rejected Christ, Christ's Sacrifice, and the convicting ministry of the Holy Ghost.

If you consider that in view, as it is throughout this chapter, is a contrast between the First Covenant (which the writer is exhorting they leave) and the New Covenant (which the writer exhorts to embrace in truth), then you will understand this verse better:


Hebrews 10:28-29

King James Version (KJV)

28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?


His point is this: if one received judgment for rejecting the First Covenant...it will be far more severe judgment for those who reject the New.

seeing it is distinctly declared in the Scriptures of the unsaved, "The transgression of the wicked saith within my heart, that there is no fear of God before his eyes" (Psalm 36:1).

Agreed, which makes it highly unlikely that a born again and indwelt believer would...


Hebrews 10:28

King James Version (KJV)


29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?


The willful sin is rejecting Christ. That is why they forsake the assembling of the brethren, brother. That is the point of the whole chapter, which he ends by saying...


Hebrews 10:39

King James Version (KJV)

39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.


The exhortation is to truly believe, rather than simply being associated with the Church while clinging to the First Covenant.

Also, notice verse 30 of the chapter in Hebrews says, "30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people." Therefore the person in consideration in this passage is said to be one of "His people" not one who is not his child.

This is a quotation which has as the subject...Israel.

Hebrews.

Hence the title.

And one could be of Israel without being a born again believer. Both prior to and following Pentecost.

If we fail to keep the Historical context in view we will mistakenly apply the teachings in erroneous manner.

So what is the passage referring to if it is not talking about an unsaved person rejecting Christ? The verse right before Hebrews 10:26, tells us "Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; ..." (Hebrews 10:25). This it is when a child of God church member willfully ceases the attendance of the assembly of believers (i.e. church).

Sorry, no. This is the popular interpretation among the L.O.S.T. (loss of salvation teachers).

The forsaking in view is by those who reject Christ and maintain their allegiance to the Law. They "crucify Christ again" by offering up sacrifices of the Law. Now if you go back to the beginning of the Chapter you will see that this is discussed, and is the basis for his later comments:


Hebrews 10:1-4

King James Version (KJV)

1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.

4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.


The Chapter is, again, an exhortation to progress to that which is perfect, which is...Christ and the New Covenant, which was promised in the Old Testament.

The very next verse says, " For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth..."As the forsaking the assembling of ourselves together is named in the immediate context, this particular sin as an example of sinning willfully.

Look at it again with a perspective that shows that rejecting the New Covenant is the sin in view.

That is why "there remaineth no more sacrifice for sin," because if one rejects the sacrifice of Christ they have no other sacrifice to turn to.

The Christian who absents himself from the assembling of the church, either does it willfully, if he absents himself by choice, having the ability and not the disposition, he sins willfully; and if he be a child of God, it is "after he has received a knowledge of the truth" as he is a member of the church.

2 Peter makes it clear that one can receive the truth without conversion.

So does John 16.

He who has received a knowledge of the truth, knows his God too well to believe that his willful transgressions will go unchastised. He knows full well that God will judge his people, but it is in this life, not in Hell afterwards for the same book of Hebrews explicitly tells us, "7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons." (Hebrews 12:7-8)


God bless,

Brother Joe

The problem is imposing salvation on all who receive the truth. This is the primary mission of the Comforter, to glorify Christ and in doing so bring conviction to the unregenerate heart. Look at v.29 again and explain what it means to "do despite unto the Spirit of Grace." In view is a rejection of that which the Spirit seeks to accomplish, which is to enlighten the natural man to the spiritual truths of the Gospel.

And that is all the time I have today, my friend.


God bless.

 

[BobRyan]

The passage in context states, "26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?"

They themselves do not have that fearful looking for of judgment, Brother Joseph, that is insight on our part. We know that is all they have to look forward to...they do not. For if they did have that fear they would repent.

And I agree, they did not become "unsaved," for they were never saved to begin with.

The problem with that idea is that it reduces the text to merely trying to get people to be "lost" rather than allowing them to choose to be "lostER".

In the Bible there is not much point to "just being lost" and "not lostER".

Rather in the Bible the point is to be saved rather than LOST.

When you make this into an appeal to be "lost" rather than making the mistake of being "lostER" - you turn the Bible on its head.

 

[Darrell C]

The passage in context states, "26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darrell C View Post

They themselves do not have that fearful looking for of judgment, Brother Joseph, that is insight on our part. We know that is all they have to look forward to...they do not. For if they did have that fear they would repent.

And I agree, they did not become "unsaved," for they were never saved to begin with.

The problem with that idea is that it reduces the text to merely trying to get people to be "lost" rather than allowing them to choose to be "lostER".

On the contrary, Bob, it makes the clear point that there is a more severe judgment for those that reject Christ, the New Covenant, and the ministry of the Comforter...than there is for those who rejected "Moses' Law."

That is clear in the text.

There is no reduction of the text, simply the imposition of a concept that cannot be seen in my statement. I have not created a dichotomy of lost people, but pointed the more severe judgment between the same lost people.

We see that here as well:


Matthew 11:20-22

King James Version (KJV)

20 Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not:

21 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.

22 But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you.

In the Bible there is not much point to "just being lost" and "not lostER".

I would agree, but not sure how you feel that is relevant to what I said, lol.

Rather in the Bible the point is to be saved rather than LOST.

Ditto.

When you make this into an appeal to be "lost" rather than making the mistake of being "lostER" - you turn the Bible on its head.

Read it again, my friend:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darrell C View Post

They themselves do not have that fearful looking for of judgment, Brother Joseph, that is insight on our part. We know that is all they have to look forward to...they do not. For if they did have that fear they would repent.

And I agree, they did not become "unsaved," for they were never saved to begin with.

The fearful looking for of judgment is insight on the part of the Word of God, not something possessed by those in view. Again, if they feared their judgment they would likely turn to God in repentance.

Those in view are those that have rejected Christ, and that is precisely why "there is no more sacrifice for sin:" they have rejected the only Sacrifice by which they can escape judgment.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Original Post

Originally Posted by Darrell C

God's Sovereignty remains intact and we see that it is the revelation of God through which men are enlightened as to their condition. They are not born with this ability but it manifests only when that revelation is bestowed upon them.

And in keeping with previous revelation it is given to all men.


Continued...

If the "revelation of God" or the gospel is the means God uses to make a child of God born again (I take it from what you have said in your posts you believe in what is called "Gospel regeneration", but if I am mistaken please let me know),

Then you have missed what I have said in my posts, lol.

It all hinges on the Ministry of the Comforter, my friend.

It is not a matter of one simply hearing the Gospel, it is a matter of the Comforter enlightening and convicting of sin, righteousness, and judgment.

And we know it is a Ministry to natural men...


John 16:7-9

King James Version (KJV)

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;


Now if you would like to show how the Lord is referring to believers, rather than the unbelievers so clearly stated, I would be glad to see your reasoning.

So it is not a "Gospel Regeneration" but a Holy Ghost regeneration.

And we can see that there are those who have been given the truth who reject it...


2 Peter 2:20-22

King James Version (KJV)

20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

wouldn't it be logical to conclude everyone would have an identical response to the gospel

Not at all. It would illogical and would demand that all men were the same person.

The singular aspect you neglect is the nature of man, which is a nature predisposed to reject God. The intervention of God in the lives of men is the catalyst for first knowledge of truth and then secondly the response to truth.

(either all will believe or all will not believe) because every human being has the same nature inherited from Adam,

Having the same nature is not the same as having the same personality, which would have to be the case in order for there to be an equivalent reaction in all men. But due to the diversity of experience and knowledge among men, that is almost certain to maintain a diversity in reaction.

But we still go back to the basic point, man is depraved, possessed of a nature which neither seeks after God nor has the capacity to understand spiritual truth apart from that intervention. Not one Biblical figure ever sat down and worked out a way to come into relationship with God. God has always initiated whatever relationship we see take place in Scripture.

Every single one.

but why do some respond to the gospel differently, one believing and having faith and one not believing?

First, keep in mind that most do not immediately accept the Gospel, but like in my case, a period of years can take place. One difference is the rejection one asserts to the Ministry of the Comforter. For some, they will sear their conscience and cross that line whereby God withdraws His attempt to bring conviction unto salvation.

Secondly, we know that there will simply be those who refuse to believe, sadly, the many contrasted with the few that will. This does not suggest failure on God's part, but rather emphasizes the destructive nature of sin and the destruction the Fall created.

Third, if we believe Romans 1 we understand that all men "believe" there is a God, whether through the internal witness God has placed in men, the testimony of Creation, or direct revelation...then we do not deny belief on the part of even so-called atheists.

Lastly, we see in that same passage that men willingly turn their backs on God...despite having a knowledge of God:


Romans 1:19-22

King James Version (KJV)

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,


And while I think we must be very careful not to confuse the differing economies of Biblical History, we can say that the revelation provided to them (and all men) is sufficient for them to be condemned.

The transgression is on their part, not that God fails in saving them. He will not twist their arms, but that does not deny clear Biblical truth that He has provided His will to all men:


Romans 10:13-17

King James Version (KJV)

13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.


This illustrates the fact that the Gospel went out to all men. Knowing the Gospel of Christ was a Mystery in these days helps us to understand that the term "Gospel" simply refers to the revealed will of God, and that there are "specific Gospels" through the differing Ages depending on the revelation provided men.

While the Word of God is consistent and we can say that the Gospel preached by Isaiah was in fact relevant to the Gospel of Christ, we cannot violate Scripture and impose understanding of the Gospel of Christ, for again...it was a mystery at that point, that is, unrevealed to men.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

Why did you for example choose to believe the gospel, but for arguments sake, perhaps your neighbor didn't?

My friend...I didn't choose to believe the Gospel, I simply did not reject the truth that was shown to me.

Mankind has no "free will" in a salvific context with one exception: to choose not to believe.

And that is a conscious decision to violate divinely revealed truth. And it is the Comforter Who reveals the specific Gospel of Christ to men today. They do not "choose" to believe, they choose not to reject truth.

It seems to me the law of cause and effect would come into play if your theory of gospel regeneration is true, in other words, if the cause of regeneration is the gospel being preached to mankind, and the effect is one placing faith in the gospel, thus becoming born again, we would observe the same cause and effect in every human being if they have identical natures prior to the new birth because identical causes applied to identical things will produce the same effect.

First, it is not my "theory," as I have not ascribed salvation to anyone other than God Himself.

Secondly, it is a little absurd to suggest this. That is like saying everyone should like milk. But an analogy might be those who are lactose intolerant, lol. All people are different, and their experiences are different, thus making a broader avenue of reception on the part of men.

The reason for some believing and some not believing is because regeneration precedes believing in the gospel, thus we see why some believe and some do not.

Sorry, but no. This would necessitate that those spoken of by Peter and the writer of Hebrews were born again believers who lost their salvation, and that stands in direct conflict with a great many passages which make it clear salvation is eternal.

If it can be lost it can't be eternal.

"For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God." (1 Corinthians 1:18). This verse clearly states the gospel is the "power of God" to those who ARE (PRESENT TENSE) saved, it does not say it is the "power of God" to those who "will be saved" as you would have to insert for gospel regeneration to be true.

This has a perspective that is after the fact and does not change the Ministry of the Comforter in bringing conviction to the world. It does not change the fact that God has revealed Himself to all men ever born in one way or another.

Unquestionably their salvation is present tense...because it would not apply if they were not saved, lol.

As far as those who will be saved, here is a verse that is relevant to the future tense:

Hebrews 1:13-14

King James Version (KJV)

13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?

14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

Also, that the unsaved are incapable to repent and believe in the gospel is apparent as Paul declared, "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned" (1 Corinthians 2:14),

But he also makes it clear Who reveals the spiritual things of God to men:


1 Corinthians 2:6-11

King James Version (KJV)

6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.


And before you try to make this have application to the saved only, remember...



John 16:7-9

King James Version (KJV)

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;


The belief that God regenerates men that they might believe and trust on Christ is contradictory to what Scripture teaches. It is the unbelieving world the Comforter came to minister to, and despite the fact that many will reject that ministry, that does not change how divine truth has always been revealed.

Peter, for instance, before being Baptized with the Holy Ghost...declared that Jesus was the Christ, the Son of the Living God.

He did not know this but through divine revelation...


Matthew 16:16-17

King James Version (KJV)

16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.


...and we see that this does not imply that Peter understood the Mystery of the Gospel, but was in fact in opposition to it, which is rebuked by Christ:


Matthew 16:21-23

King James Version (KJV)

21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.

23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.


The Lord knew that Peter meant well, but made the point that he was an offense unto the Christ. That is, why the Lord came from Heaven in the first place, to die that He might eternally save men from their sins.

but if you believe in gospel regeneration, then you believe the natural man can receive the things of God.


God bless,

Brother Joe

I do, but only through divine revelation from God.

But what we do not say is that all men who have divine truth revealed to them...receive that truth.

You will not make the world of John 16:9 to speak of believers, and it matters not whether one wants to interject election into the teaching, because the bottom line is that the Comforter ministers to the unbelieving.

That is who is in view.

All men who receive the Gospel and believe to the saving of the soul are not regenerated in order to do that, but, it is when they believe, repent, and trust in Christ that they are regenerated.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Brother Darrell, no verse in scripture explicitly uses the word "offer" in regards to the gospel, can you give me one?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darrell C View Post

Sure:


Romans 10:10-17

King James Version (KJV)

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

This reaches back into the Old Testament Eras. God has always made His will known to man, and has done in many various times and ways.

But has in these last days spoken unto us by His Son Jesus Christ, by Whom HE also made the worlds, or in other words, as the Old Testament teaches...

...there is no Savior besides Him.

Man will either try to save himself, in which case he will fail, or he will yield to the revealed will of God and come under obedience to the Gospel, the last word in Redemption..

Brother Darrell,

Your response above was for my request for you to give a passage that explicitly uses the word "offer" in reference to the gospel, but the passage you gave me in the above reply does not contain this word.

So give me one verse that has the word "phase" in it.

That God is "offering" the Gospel to the world is very apparent, though the word offer is not in there.

Now let me ask you, what is the Gospel? Is it not the Death, Burial, and Resurrection of Christ?

Do you seclude the Gospel only to the peaching of the Word, or do include the meaning of the Gospel in that as well:


Hebrews 10:12

King James Version (KJV)

12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;


Now there is a verse with the specific word offer in it...is that relevant? I think it is.

Now let's see who this offering was for:



John 3:16

King James Version (KJV)

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


Consider another verse that also shows the Gospel goes out to unbelievers:


Romans 1:16

King James Version (KJV)

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.


The statement demands that there are those, as we see in many passages, who hear the Gospel and do not believe.

This word is not used in connection with the gospel in the entire Bible,

It is a simple concept: if I tell everyone on this forum that if they send me a SASE I will send them $100 then I have made an offer.

So too with the Gospel, God has said "Believe on my Son and you will be saved," that is...an offer.

And if you go back to the original proof-text provided you will see that the Gospel (and not necessarily the Gospel of Christ but the general will of God through the revelation provided in each Age) has gone out to the whole world:


Romans 10:10-17

King James Version (KJV)

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.


When Paul writes "the Jew and the Greek" here that contrasts the Jew and the non-Jew, it excludes...no-one.

Consider:


Romans 10:17-18

King James Version (KJV)

17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.


Now, unless we want to say the Gospel, both that which went out in the Old Testament as well as the Gospel of Christ, is a construct of man, then we are forced to admit that it is God offering salvation through the revelation of His will to man.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

that is why you couldn't supply a passage that contains it.

I did, lol. But if you demand the specific word "offer," rather than accepting the concept (as we do with the word Trinity), then it is doubtful you will be satisfied. That is a distraction from the point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darrell C View Post
Sure:

Romans 10:9

King James Version (KJV)

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved...

Brother Darrell,

Your response above was for my request for you to give a passage that explicitly uses the word "accept" in reference to accepting Jesus, but the passage you gave me in the above reply does not contain this word.

Do we not impose the concept of acceptance for those who believe?

In the KJV, the concept of accepting is drawn out by the word...receive.

When one receives Christ they are accepting all relevant knowledge and requirements.

You use it your self...

give a passage that explicitly uses the word "accept" in reference to accepting Jesus

Why? Because it is an accepted term. lol

Now reword the question using another word, please.

Though this is a popular word used by modern day evangelicals, again like the word "offer" you will not find it in the entire Bible as it is a false doctrine.

We "offer" every time we propose the Gospel to someone. And those efforts are directly from God. He works through us, and the Gospel is offered to unbelievers.

This "offer" can be accepted or refused, received or rejected.

It is a long way from being classified as a "false doctrine, for it is not a doctrine, but simply a term used to explain what really is the doctrine.

But...you're in luck, I have found a verse with the very word you demand in it:


2 Corinthians 11

King James Version (KJV)


3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.


Now if they have not accepted the gospel the false teachers preached...what did they do?

They accepted the Gospel that Paul preached, and in doing so accepted the Christ that Paul preached.


Matthew 10:40

King James Version (KJV)

40 He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.


It is not a false doctrine nor is it unrelated to Biblical Christianity.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darrell C View Post
And that negates quite a large number of texts which conflict with this teaching, which is summed up that Christ declared His victory over sin, death, and the grave, and somehow all of the Elect are automatically saved.]..

Paul said he was saved before the world began (II Tim 1:9),

This applies to the omniscient God Who did in fact settle events before they began.

That doesn't mean Paul was saved while he was murdering Christians or before he was in fact converted. There is a moment in time when conversion took place and Paul was at that moment a born again believer indwelt by God, something lacking from his previous life.

when Jesus came into the world (I Tim 1:15),

Bingo. Salvation on an eternal basis could not begin until Christ died and rose again, and it was not until He returned to Heaven and sent the Comforter that men were reconciled to God and brought into union through the Eternal Indwelling of God, which at that time became possible through Atonement.

Abraham, Moses, and David all died awaiting the redemption of their transgressions.

when the Spirit regenerated him (Titus 3:5),

Bingo.

when he took heed to himself and the doctrine (I Tim 4:16),

He specifically took heed of the Gospel of Christ, which was a Mystery until Pentecost. Prophesied, yes, but not revealed, just as it was not revealed how the Seed of Abraham would bless all families of the earth.

and would be saved sometime in the future (Rom 13:11).

This speaks only of the redemption of our bodies, it does not deny the fact that we are eternally saved in Christ. Hebrews goes to great lengths to drive the point that the New Covenant is complete in regards to salvific issues.

Paul clearly mentions five different stages or phases of salvation. And this is the key to understanding our wonderful salvation in Jesus Christ.

Since God saves sinners in stages, or phases, we must not limit salvation to just one idea or one event at one time. Paul saw his own salvation occurring in five phases.

This is questionable doctrine, and confuses, I believe, some very simple concepts in regards to salvation in Christ.

We are not "saved in five phases," we are eternally saved the moment we respond to the Gospel of Jesus Christ, which the Comforter enlightens us as to the truth of the Gospel.

It used to be called the Ordo Salutis of salvation, which means the order of salvation; but it is not studied or preached much any more. We live in the perilous times of the last days, when men no longer want sound doctrine preached to them (II Tim 3:1 - 4:4).

It is amazing that you decry such terms as offer and accept as false doctrine yet embrace this teaching.

There are still men that want sound doctrine, and the Lord is still suing men to give it.

They prefer fables over truth, so the true doctrine of salvation has been almost lost from the earth.

No, the Gospel will never be "almost lost from the earth." This diminishes the fact that God's Word always reaches those He sends it to.

The primary problem in embracing such a fatalistic view is failing to recognize that there has always been a many/few ratio, but even the Prophet Isaiah trespassed into such a fatalistic view, only to be told, and I paraphrase..."Relax, I have reserved unto Myself a remnant."

In other words, "Isaiah...you are not the only true believer left in the world."

Everyone talks about "getting saved," but no one can explain it from the Bible.

Come again? Many people explain just fine on many forums around the world on a minute by minute basis.

That people are not accepting Christ en masse does not negate that fact.

There are "invitations" and "decisions" and "methods" for salvation, but none of these words or ideas are from the Bible.

The invitation:


Revelation 3:20-22

King James Version (KJV)

20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.


The decision:


Acts 4:24

King James Version (KJV)

24 And when they heard that, they lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, Lord, thou art God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is:


The methods:



1 Corinthians 9:19-21

King James Version (KJV)

19 For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.

20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;

21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

Paul clearly taught five phases of salvation.

The ETERNAL PHASE is God's plan and choice from eternity to allow sin into the world and to save His elect from it. Since He is eternal and sovereign, God planned in eternity all that He does in time. There are no surprises to God. He planned to allow sin, so that He could display His glorious grace in saving His elect from it and displaying His power and wrath on the rest. This phase of being saved is found in 2 Timothy 1: 9, "9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,"

Again, that does not mean that men are "born saved."

The Bible is clear that all men are separated from God, hence the necessity of God's intervention by means of Christ.

The LEGAL PHASE is God's work to satisfy His holy nature and perfect justice for the salvation of His elect. Because every sin must be punished, He sent a Substitute to die for their sins. His perfect holiness and justice cannot overlook sins and acquit wicked men. He must punish their sins in Another, even Jesus Christ. And this He did at the crucifixion of Jesus Christ 2000 years ago. This phase of Jesus saving his people is seen in 1 Timothy 1:15, "15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners" and again in Matthew 1:21, "And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins"

Also dependent on the Work of Christ.

So what do you do with all of the History prior to the Cross?

And by the way, did you notice...

This phase of Jesus saving his people is seen in 1 Timothy 1:15, "15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners"

The VITAL PHASE is God's application of these benefits to us personally and individually. Though He planned to save us from eternity and legally did so with Christ's death on the cross, we still have a depraved and wicked nature at enmity with Him. So He regenerates us into a new life by His Spirit and gives us a new heart that loves Him and righteousness. This is being born again, and it is done entirely by the power of God sometime during our lives. This phase of being saved is seen in Titus 3:5 "5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost"

Not "sometime during our lives," but in fact at the moment of conversion.

At this time we receive positional sanctified.

The PRACTICAL PHASE is our response to His salvation. He sends His Spirit into our hearts, and we cry "Abba, Father." With new hearts from regeneration, we then hear the gospel, and we believe it. We want to be baptized to show Him our love. This being saved is by faith in believing the gospel, thus in our experience, we come to know that Jesus already legally saved us on Calvary through the atonement. This being saved is found in 1 Timothy 4:16, " 16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee" Also, please pay special attention to this verse, "...our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel" (2 Timothy 1:10). Notice it says the gospel only brings "to light" life and immortality, thus these things were already there in a regenerated child of God, but the gospel sheds light to his children as to how life and immortality got there-through Christ's death and resurrection.

Regeneration does not take place in order that men might believe, this is the work of the Comforter, who has always enlightened natural men to truth.

You actually almost hit it here...

Notice it says the gospel only brings "to light" life and immortality, thus these things were already there in a regenerated child of God, but the gospel sheds light to his children as to how life and immortality got there-through Christ's death and resurrection.

As to "life and immortality...already there," sorry, that is about as erroneous as it gets.

Good thing teachings like these are losing favor.

One does not have life and immortality in their natural state, but are, as Christ teaches in John 6...dead:


John 6:53

King James Version (KJV)

53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.


The requirement for salvation is express belief in Christ and the Work of the Cross. That is what He means by eating of His flesh and drinking of His blood, it is a reference to His death.

And no man did this before Christ died. And no man partook of the Bread of Life prior to His coming down from Heaven. They had manna, which gave physical life.

The FINAL PHASE is that great day in the future when we shall be declared the sons of God to the whole universe and enter heaven for eternity. Our bodies will be raised from graves and glorified into new spiritual bodies, and we will be thoroughly purged from all sin to be perfectly holy in His presence forever. This great conclusion to the plan of salvation is yet in the future. It is mentioned in Romans 13: 11, "11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed"

Brother Joe

This is the redemption of our bodies and like God's omniscient view of the elect...is as sure as our conversion was. God is not surprised when someone is saved for He knew them before the foundations of the world.

And the redemption of the body is not a separate event from salvation in Christ, it is part and parcel, even as positional and progressive sanctification is.


God bless.

 

[Yeshua1]

The problem with that idea is that it reduces the text to merely trying to get people to be "lost" rather than allowing them to choose to be "lostER".

In the Bible there is not much point to "just being lost" and "not lostER".

Rather in the Bible the point is to be saved rather than LOST.

When you make this into an appeal to be "lost" rather than making the mistake of being "lostER" - you turn the Bible on its head.

the author of hebrews makes it clear that a more severe Judgement awaits those who refuse and reject Jesus as only messiah God has provided, as jesus himself stated that Sodom would fare better in last judgement then they who refused the son of God now in their midst!

 

[Darrell C]

Post #262

Post #262

Originally Posted by Darrell C View Post
You're forgetting that these people...knew about God.

These are not people ignorant of God.

Now ask yourself...why did they know in the first place? Do you think that God revealed His will to them so he could have an excuse to judge them?

Notice that "what may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them."..

Brother Darrell,

The passage we are discussing that you commented on above is Romans chapter 1. So what is they knew there was a God as it is written "Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble." (James 2:19) ? [/QUOTE]
[/QUOTE]

You are missing the entire point: God first revealed Himself to men.

Had He not done that...they could not have turned away.

It does not necessitate that they simply heard about God, but that they are directly charged with having the revelation of God known to them, and that they turned away knowing the truth.

And you actually kill your own argument by quoting...

and finally, "What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction" (Romans 9:22)

You confirm that these men were known to God to be men that would not believe to the saving of the soul, yet you are confronted with the singular fact that they...knew.

And it is the same today: the Comforter reveals the truth to the natural man...they do not have that ability to understand spiritual things from birth, nor do they gain that ability during their life.

All divine truth is revealed by God to men, then...they receive or reject.

We see that here:


Acts 7:51

King James Version (KJV)

51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.


We see that here:


Genesis 6

King James Version (KJV)


3 And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.


Two different Economies and still we see God revealing His will to godless men.

Are we to infer that God loves the devils too because they also know there is one God?

Not sure where that comes from, as in view is God's love for the world. I will not speculate about His views towards demons, because there is a difference between men and Angels, and that we are not made Angels, or, that this is not our final destiny in glorification (though there is a similarity), seems pretty clear.

Consider a verse that is pretty simple:


Romans 5:18

King James Version (KJV)

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.


That doesn't say "salvation came upon all men," but the free gift (and I realize the free gift is an insertion, but a justified insertion due to the context, that is what is in view).

What that means is that the opportunity provided in Christ is not excluded from any man. When God judges men they will not say "I did not know" or cast God in a light that has Him responsible for their destruction.

Therefore, I will reiterate what I asked you in a prior post on Romans 1, "This passage says not one word about the "love of God". What verse in the above passage mentions the "love of God", moreover what verse in the above passage says that this "love" extends to every human being?"

Because you don't see the word "love" does not negate the general principle of God's love for the world.

Tell me what they were to be thankful for...


Romans 1:21

King James Version (KJV)

21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.


They knew God, and were not thankful. For what? For denying them salvation? No, they were not thankful for the opportunity provided through the provision He gave them. Namely...revelation concerning Himself, whether the internal witness, the testimony of Creation, or direct revelation (He speaking directly, through Prophets, and through the Word).

It all boils down to God will justly judge all men according to their response of the revelation they are provided. That is a Biblical Principle that can be seen in every Age.

Also, God doesn't need an "excuse" to judge the wicked. "That the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction? they shall be brought forth to the day of wrath" (Job 21:30) also, "The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil" (Proverbs 16:4),

I agree, but that doesn't negate the fact that He has an excuse...


Romans 1:18-21

King James Version (KJV)

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.


Instead of making this about what God does not do, let's concentrate on the focus: what men do.

God has always done His part where men are concerned, and not one man has ever died that did not first have the ministry of God reveal to him that which needed to be known in order for them to obey God, and thus be saved.

and again, "And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed"

Again we see revelation precede disobedience.

I have mentioned many times that there is a clear distinction in guilt between those who disobeyed revelation prior to the unveiling of the Mystery of Christ, and those who reject Christ. Both stand condemned, but the point is that revelation is progressive, and that revelation is a constant theme that precedes guilt.

All men will know the truth, but not all men will obey the truth.

and finally, "What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction" (Romans 9:22)

Brother Joe

So let's go on down and see that revelation is necessary:


Romans 9:33

King James Version (KJV)

33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.


Then let's continue to see how they believe:


Romans 10:13-17

King James Version (KJV)

13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.


That has always been the case. Show me a man of faith in Scripture, and I will show you where God revealed Himself to that man.

Paul goes on to make clear this is a Biblical Pattern:


Romans 10:18

King James Version (KJV)

18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.


Those who try to misconstrue this...


2 Peter 3:9

King James Version (KJV)

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.


...to refer only to the Elect suggest that God is worried that perhaps...some of the Elect just might not make it.

They forget that God so loved the World that He sent His only begotten Son.

They forget that He came unto His own and His own received Him not.

Revelation precedes culpability, and God is Just to give every man opportunity to obey.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Post #263

Post #263

Originally Posted by Darrell C View Post

Nobody is indwelt until they receive the Gospel....

On the contrary, everyone is indwelt with the Holy Spirit before they put faith in the gospel.

Then explain how it is that the Comforter ministers to unbelievers...


John 16:7-9

King James Version (KJV)

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;


Then explain how it is that men are seen to be condemned despite knowing the truth:


2 Peter 2:20-22

King James Version (KJV)

20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.


Go back to the beginning of the chapter to find the context, it equates the false prophet of before with the false teacher of today...that is who...

1...escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ (Have come to know the truth as contrasted with the many false doctrines and religions out there);

2...known and turned from the holy commandment delivered unto them;

3...are unconverted, the dog is still a dog, and a sow is still a pig.


You cannot deny these false teachers did not know the truth, yet were not converted, They were not born again, and they were not indwelt by God.

But they had been ministered to by the Comforter. They had been brought under conviction of the truth, but...they turned away from the truth.

Do you believe Cornelius was unsaved prior to Peter preaching the gospel to him?

In a New Testament sense of salvation...no question, yes.

However, we do not equate the word saved with Born Again, because those who were justified by God through faith in the revelation they had received were in the eternal sense "saved."

That does not change the fact that they died not having their transgressions redeemed through the Blood of Christ, which took place at the Cross, whereby they were made suitable to come into the presence of God, which no man had done before the Cross:


Hebrews 9:12-15

King James Version (KJV)

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.


After this was done, the shadow of the Tabernacle gives way to the True Holy Of Holies:


Hebrews 9:24

King James Version (KJV)

24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:


Hebrews 10:18-20

King James Version (KJV)

18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;

Also, how do you explain John the Baptist being indwelt from his mother's womb? "...and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb" (Luke 1:15)

Very simple, he was not indwelt, but as the text states...he was filled with the Holy Spirit.

That is the same empowering He effects in us today, and should not be confused with our being indwelt. That is a separate issue.

John makes the distinction himself:


Matthew 3:11-12

King James Version (KJV)

11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.


And Christ clarifies that John is speaking about the Eternally Indwelling Comforter that would come on the Day of Pentecost:


Acts 1

King James Version (KJV)


4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.


After they are Baptized with the Spirit, which is what happens to everyone that is Born Again, then the disciples will be empowered:


8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.


And that is what the Lord has done for men since the beginning, He has empowered men for ministry. The Spirit came upon them, but Christ makes a distinction between then and what was coming, when He would be in us:


John 14:16-17

King James Version (KJV)

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.


In verse 16 we see the Lord's own departure is contrasted with the Comforter...who will not go away, but will be with us for ever.

There is a difference between being filled with the Spirit and being indwelt. When Paul wrote "Be ye filled..." he was not telling the believers he wrote to that they should go out and get saved. He was exhorting them to come under submission to God so that they could be used of God.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darrell C View Post
One is nor regenerated so they can believe, but are born again because they believe.....

You have already correct admitted that faith is a fruit of the Spirit (as it states in Galatians), therefore how can one have faith without first having the Spirit in them that produces that faith?

You do not see a difference between saving faith and general faith? Are you constantly being saved? Is there a possibility that you can lose or need to renew saving faith?

Faith is not a broad-brushed singular issue, but involves more than saving faith. One can have saving faith and yet be weak in general faith, thus Paul wrote...


1 Corinthians 12:8-10

King James Version (KJV)

8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:


Now consider this carefully, brother: are there believers without faith? This clearly shows the impartation of the gift of faith is not given to every believer.

And when it comes to saving faith that is a result of the Comforter ministering the truth to an unbeliever, they understand, believe, and place their faith in the Cross of Christ.

And then they are born again.

But it is not until they believe and respond in obedience to the Gospel that they are saved. The false teachers of 2 Peter 2 are those who hear and reject the Holy Spirit's ministry, described by the writer of Hebrews as "doing despite unto the Spirit of Christ.

Also, Jesus said, "A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit" (Matthew 7:18), thus how can a sinner with an evil nature bring forth the good fruit of faith as Jesus said, "neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit"?

Show me where you find the Lord mention the "good fruit of faith."

The Lord is speaking on a temporal basis, not an eternal basis. The Lord did not reveal the Mystery of the Gospel of Christ to those He taught...the Comforter did.

The Lord's ministry is an Old Testament ministry in the sense that the Old Testament ceased on the Day of Pentecost, when the promises of God began being bestowed upon men.

I know that sounds radical but that is why I have taken the time to point out Peter's very opposition to the Gospel of Christ.

He was not a Christian until Pentecost, because it was then that he had revealed to him the Mystery of the Gospel.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darrell C View Post
We cannot deny the part the Word of God, in this Age the Gospel of Christ, has in man's new birth:


1 Peter 1:22-23

King James Version (KJV)

22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.


James 1:18

King James Version (KJV)

18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures......

Brother Darrell, the "word" mentioned in James 1:18 and 1 Peter 1:23 that makes one born again is not the preached word, but rather Jesus himself mentioned in John 1:14, "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us".

You should read the Chapter again, as it is the Word of God, the Gospel in particular...which is in view:


1 Peter 1:9-12

King James Version (KJV)

9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.


Also consider:


Romans 1:16

King James Version (KJV)

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.


It is the Gospel which the Comforter uses to convict unbelievers, my friend.


John 16:13-14

King James Version (KJV)

13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

The scriptures themselves do not give life, but testify that Jesus himself does this as Jesus said, "Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me" (John 5:39)

It is true that God is the Source of Life, and that is made clear in John 6, where we see that the Bread of Life came down from Heaven (contrasted with manna which provided only physical sustenance, and was temporal).

The rebuke above was specific to those who used Scripture erroneously, and thought God was beholden to them for their efforts in the Word.

Yet they were clueless to the heart and will of God, despite their knowledge. It was intellectual, not spiritual.

So we do not diminish the role of the Word of God in salvation, nor do we neglect the principle that God always reveals Himself to man first. He is the Author, He is the Finisher...of faith.

And then, we are careful to maintain revelation and understanding of that revelation in it's own historical context, because if we impose something that wasn't taking place, as many do, we will surely err in our own understanding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darrell C View Post
This is of the pre-Pentecost Era.

No-one was born again at this time......

You say this in response to what Jesus said in John 8:43, "Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.",

No, I say it because it is simply a Bible Truth which many miss.

but if nobody was born again before the pre-Pentecost era why did Jesus tell Nicodemus, "3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." (John 3:3)? Moreover, if what your asserting is true, that one becomes born again at the time they believe the gospel, why did Jesus compare how one becomes born again to being like unto the wind that you cannot tell "whence it cometh, and whither it goeth", "8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit" (John 3:8)?

Same reason that the Law was given when God knew they would not keep it.

Briefly...

1. The Kingdom in view is the Millennial Kingdom. No man will enter into that Kingdom except they are born again.

2. Nicodemus should have understood what Christ was teaching, which like His teaching about the Comforter...was prophetic.

3. Just because a command is given, doesn't mean that it can be accomplished at that point:


John 20:22

King James Version (KJV)

22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:



John 7:38-39

King James Version (KJV)

38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)


Did they receive the Spirit then?

No, because the Spirit did not come until after Christ ascended back to Heaven:


John 16:7

King James Version (KJV)

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

This would not be true in the case of gospel regeneration, because one could point to a specific time they trusted the gospel and thus received the Holy Spirit, thus how could that be like the wind?

I can, it was in the early part of 95 at Colonial Heights Baptist Church, Pastor Terry Harper preaching in the pulpit.

As to the wind, the point there is that no man can see what effects the movement, my friend. It is the opposite to the point you seek to make.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darrell C View Post
No, mankind is not free to choose. He cannot choose to be saved.

Only God can enlighten a man and give him that opportunity.

You actually cancel your point in saying he is free to choose, and I reject free will totally.......

I said, "mankind is free to choose according to his nature which is totally evil".

And that is correct. Only through the enlightening of the Spirit of God can any man understand and receive the spiritual things of God.

And it is God's intervention through which men come to the point where they receive or reject the will of God as expressed by the Holy Spirit in their hearts.

In a similar manner a dog can choose to walk, but not fly because he has no wings,

Agreed.

likewise those without the spirit can only choose to reject the gospel because mankind is totally depraved.

I agree, just not for the same reasoning you impose into this. And without regeneration.

Hence the teaching of the false teachers that knew the truth and rejected it.

For gospel regeneration to be true, you need to deny that mankind is totally depraved, otherwise how can they repent and believe the gospel?

Through the Ministry of the Comforter, I have made that clear throughout this discussion and every discussion I am in on this subject.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darrell C View Post
That era has nothing to do with regeneration. No-one was born again until after Pentecost. Only in this Age have men been made acceptable to come into God's presence in Heaven. Sins still remained to the account of even men like Abraham and David, Elijah and Moses........

I am not gong to debate you on what you said about Abraham, David, etc, though I disagree with you, it would just take us off the topic of this thread.

And when you see the relevance of the Atonement of Christ and what was redeemed, compared to the atonement afforded through vicarious animal sacrifice...then you will see the magnitude of the Work of Christ.

It is not off topic, it is vital to our understanding.

At any rate, I quoted Genesis 6:5, " "And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually" only to prove my point that a man not indwelt with the Holy Ghost cannot believe the gospel due to his nature, or do you think the nature of mankind has changed since Genesis 6:5?

No-one was indwelt in that day, only filled with the Spirit. It is designated usually in terms of "The Spirit came upon..."

Paul said in Romans 8:8, "So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.",

That is true of believers and unbelievers alike.

but wouldn't it be very pleasing to God if someone in the flesh without the Holy Ghost could have faith in the gospel to become born again, as you assert is possible?

When one gets to the point where the convicting ministry of the Comforter results in faith...they are then regenerated.

Again, there is a difference between general faith and saving faith. General belief and saving belief. Many people believe Christ is Who He claimed to be, but they do not have faith in His death, and that is required by Christ in John 6 (we must eat of His flesh and drink of His blood, which is faith in the Cross, not Communion).

The Hebrews written to in Hebrews had a knowledge and a belief, enough to be associated with Christ and the Church, but had to be warned not to sacrifice according to the Law again, which denied faith in the Cross, and thus true belief and faith (if they maintained the Law, or forsook the assembling of the brethren).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darrell C View Post
However, that does not mean men are quickened so they can believe.

You realize you defeat the Sovereignty of God as well as Eternal Security with this well intentioned, but unscriptural position, don't you?

This does not negate eternal security

Ever so subtly it does, because either the false teachers of 2 Peter 2 and the ones trodding under foot the Son of God were unbelievers rejecting the truth after having received it...

...or salvation can be lost and it is born again believers in view.

Secondly, you are teaching that if a man has to be regenerated to know the truth, then again we have a pattern for loss of salvation.

Hence it is a denial of Eternal Salvation in Christ, and a dismissal of His Sovereignty.

because men are quickened so they WILL (not can) believe.

The distinction does not change a thing. It makes no difference if they will or can, the same objective with the same elements are in view.

And the solution is simply agreeing with Scripture that teaches that God reveals divine truth. The reaction to the revelation varies between rejection and receiving. Most who are saved do not embrace the truth immediately, but the Spirit must minister for some time. It was over more than a year for me, can you remember your conversion, and when you began to embrace the truth?

"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:" (John 10:27), notice they will not fail to follow Jesus and believe.

Nobody would argue that, it is a truth taught by Christ.

Now how do they become sheep? Are they born that way?

No, they are first introduced to the revelation of God's will, then they are obedient to it. It is a given that the elect will be obedient and the non-elect will not be.

Also scripture makes it clear that all who believe will subsequently never perish. "And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die" (John 11:26)

Brother Joe

You're preaching to the choir, my friend, salvation is Eternal and cannot be lost, misplaced, given up, recalled, nullified, or any other means of cause for cessation of that which is eternal.

He will finish the work He has begun in us, for He is the Author and Finisher (Completer) of our faith.


God bless.

 

[steaver]

Darrell,

You have to understand what is at stake here for the Calvinist. If they were to accept the overwhelming biblical evidence that regeneration does not cause belief, but rather is the result of belief AND the calling upon the Lord Jesus Christ, then Calvinism is destroyed. Which of course would be a great thing, but for some reason they are bewitched by it.

Now once a person is born-again, then belief is sealed forever because one becomes a new creation having the Spirit of Christ joined within them as one. One cannot stop believing in that which they have a personal knowledge of is an absolute truth. You are one with Christ, Christ in you.

 

[Darrell C]

Darrell,

You have to understand what is at stake here for the Calvinist. If they were to accept the overwhelming biblical evidence that regeneration does not cause belief, but rather is the result of belief AND the calling upon the Lord Jesus Christ, then Calvinism is destroyed. Which of course would be a great thing, but for some reason they are bewitched by it.

I don't think I would say Calvinism hinges on that doctrine alone, as there are a few key Calvinistic points which I would be found in agreement with which also make Calvinism distinct. Like a preacher once said, "There's a little bit of heretic in all of us," lol. The same can be said of any given system of theology, I believe.

I will agree that it is an important Calvinistic Doctrine, and that it might radically impact our Calvinist brethren if they were to give it serious consideration.

I will also ay that Calvinism does hold the potential for some of our weaker brethren to engage in animosity rather than allowing the Word of God to instill the love of God in their hearts.

Had a "friend" who one day decided, well, he really liked Reformed Theology, and decided, well..."I'm going to be a Calvinist."

I cautioned him in what I saw as a foolish and in fact religious mentality (though not in those words, lol), and warned him that such a mindset would end in division.

And that is what happened.

It became a matter of accept my new doctrine (that I don't even really understand yet but will one day)...or we cannot be friends.

It seems so simple to me, really, and not sure why most ignore the Ministry of the Comforter and the fact that the Gospel remained a Mystery until revealed by Him.

Think of all the Arminians and Calvinists that could have obeyed Scripture and loved each other...if they simply got that one point straight. It is sad.

People have died over this, and you know, I can't find a verse to justify Christians murdering each other.

Now once a person is born-again, then belief is sealed forever because one becomes a new creation having the Spirit of Christ joined within them as one. One cannot stop believing in that which they have a personal knowledge of is an absolute truth. You are one with Christ, Christ in you.

To be honest, I believe all people believe. When they are held accountable their sin will be rejection. The state of "unbelief" is a self-imposed state in which, like the "friend" I use to have, people indoctrinate themselves into. This is the hardening of the heart, the conscience seared as with a hot iron.

In 2 Peter 2 we see this illustrated by the false teachers, who knew the way of righteousness, and turned away. In their natural state they did not come to understand, but were enlightened by God, that they might be saved. The Old Testament provides great illustration of this principle, in that the Children of Israel witnessed firsthand the power of God, and this impacted not just the Hebrew People but a mixed multitude left with them. Yet this did not suffice. It is like Christ taught (via Abraham)...

Luke 16:31

King James Version (KJV)

31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.


Unbelief is a concerted effort to reject the revelation of God. All men have it, and all men owe it to God, not something in their ability...for that revelation.

Nowhere in Scripture do we see the first person initiate relationship with God of his own accord, that always follows the intervention of God. He began this process in Creation itself, then in each of us in our individual creation (the internal witness), and should men be fortunate enough to come under the Gospel of Jesus Christ, then that two-edged sword will also cut in judgment should they reject it.

I say it often, "The only free will men will exercise in regards to salvation will be to reject it."

We cannot credit man with any participation in redemption, only an obedience to truth.


God bless.

 

[steaver]

I don't think I would say Calvinism hinges on that doctrine alone, as there are a few key Calvinistic points which I would be found in agreement with which also make Calvinism distinct. Like a preacher once said, "There's a little bit of heretic in all of us," lol. The same can be said of any given system of theology, I believe.


God bless.

Calvinism is TULIP. Every letter of TULIP is based on the New Heart taking place before any faith is ever expressed towards God. Take away the Calvinism doctrine of when the New Heart is given and every letter falls with the exception of maybe perseverance which is actually preservation. If one letter falls it is no longer Calvinism. And here we see at least 4 of the 5 would fall if they put the New Heart in it's proper order.