Democracy in Iraq

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Originally posted by Terry_Herrington:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Terry_Herrington:
I fear that, in the long run, he and other neocons like him may prove to be more dangerous that the terrorists.

Only for people who think freedom is dangerous and tyranny is good.

Joseph Botwinick </font>[/QUOTE]If you were against tyranny you would take another good look at your president. </font>[/QUOTE]More rantings of a sore loser. But hey, you can criticize your president without fear of being tortured, imprisoned, or murdered. Isn't tyranny terrible?

The truth is that you still live in a Democracy that allows freedom of speech, free press, free vote, and the right to emigrate. And you take that for granted as if you are oppressed while over 8 million Iraqis face the threat of toruture and death just for the simple right to cast their vote, and they still defy the terrorists. Ironic, isn't it?

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Originally posted by JGrubbs:
"If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy."--James Madison

This foreign policy is devoid of any morality and wrong.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Dragoon68]

Originally posted by JGrubbs:
I believe America was founded on Judeo-Christian principles and based on the foundation of Jesus Christ, but the more Americans thumb their nose at God, the more He will remove his protection from our once great nation, and will turn them over to their sinfull desires. That goes for any nation that rejects Jesus Christ, wether it be America, Israel, Iraq, etc., if a nation rejects Jesus Christ, they are destin for destruction.

I can agree with your basic message on this at least!

Patrick

 

[JGrubbs]

Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
The truth is that you still live in a Democracy that allows freedom of speech, free press, free vote, and the right to emigrate. And you take that for granted as if you are oppressed while over 8 million Iraqis face the threat of toruture and death just for the simple right to cast their vote, and they still defy the terrorists. Ironic, isn't it?

The truth is that we live in a "Democracy" that refuses 4,000 babies a day freedom of speech, free press, free vote, etc. They face "toruture and death" on a daily basis. But, that is okay as long as we spend all of our resources to bring temporary freedom to everyone around the world, and pass a few parental notification laws every few years to keep the "Christians" here at home quiet.

Whose side would you fight on if another country felt the need to invade the US to liberate the thousands of babies that are tourtured and killed daily here in your "Democracy"?

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Yes. That is as undemocratic as slavery was. What do you think the solution is? More democracy or more tyranny? I know where I stand. We should push for more democracy, the right of the people, not the courts, to choose. That would require overturning Roe V. Wade.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[JGrubbs]

Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by JGrubbs:
"If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy."--James Madison

This foreign policy is devoid of any morality and wrong.

Joseph Botwinick </font>[/QUOTE]What foreign policy?? President Madison was giving a word of warning to America, and we have see that his wise words have started to come true more and more since 9/11, tyranny and oppression will only grow in this land as we continue fighting a war against the tactic of terror.

"They that can give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither safety nor liberty."--Benjamin Franklin

Those "racist" founding fathers had some great words of wisdom that we should listen to!

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Originally posted by JGrubbs:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by JGrubbs:
"If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy."--James Madison

This foreign policy is devoid of any morality and wrong.

Joseph Botwinick </font>[/QUOTE]What foreign policy?? President Madison was giving a word of warning to America, and we have see that his wise words have started to come true more and more since 9/11, tyranny and oppression will only grow in this land as we continue fighting a war against the tactic of terror.

"They that can give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither safety nor liberty."--Benjamin Franklin

Those "racist" founding fathers had some great words of wisdom that we should listen to! </font>[/QUOTE]Isolationism didn't work the 20 years or so that we ignored the Middle East problem. You are right about one thing though, many of the founding fathers were racist and immoral. It is too bad that their great words of wisdom did not include the Biblical principles of loving thy neighbor and standing up for the oppressed. No wonder they started out so bad.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[JGrubbs]

Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
Yes. That is as undemocratic as slavery was. What do you think the solution is? More democracy or more tyranny? I know where I stand. We should push for more democracy, the right of the people, not the courts, to choose. That would require overturning Roe V. Wade.

Joseph Botwinick

The President is pushing for more "democracy" on this issue, he is waiting for the majority of the "hearts of the people" to change. He would rather let thousands die, to achieve his "mob rule" "democracy" on this issue. Instead we need some leaders who are willing to put as much attention and energy as they are on saving those persecuted around the world on our own persecuted here in America even if 99% of the people disagree. If we can wage war to liberate Iraq, then we need to wage war to end abortion. We need a leader like Jefferson who will tell the SCOTUS to enforce their own ruling, because his Executive branch will refuse to enforce any ruling that is Un-Constitutional, like Roe v. Wade!

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

And you and Michael Peroutka will wave your Constitutional magic wand and make all evil disappear tommorow.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[JGrubbs]

Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
The truth is that you still live in a Democracy that allows freedom of speech, free press, free vote...

Most conservatives would be surprised to learn that the Patriot Act and Department of Homeland Security was the brainchild of one William Jefferson Clinton. However, a recalcitrant Republican Congress denied Clinton the opportunity to implement these plans. Of course, with the Republican, G.W. Bush, serving as President, that same Republican Congress was all too eager to pass these bills into law.

For those who are willing to objectively analyze Bush's actions and policies, the truth is clearly seen: this President has systematically put in place laws, policies, and bureaucracies that can, are, and will continue to strip the American citizenry of the constitutional protections of their liberties.

Following are examples of freedoms which President Bush and his fellow Republicans in Congress have already expunged (as reported by the Associated Press):

*FREEDOM OF ASSOCIATION: Government may monitor religious and political institutions without suspecting criminal activity to assist terror investigations.

*FREEDOM OF INFORMATION: Government has closed once-public immigration hearings, has secretly detained hundreds of people without charges, and has encouraged bureaucrats to resist public records questions.

*FREEDOM OF SPEECH: Government may prosecute librarians or keepers of any other records if they tell anyone that the government subpoenaed information related to a terror investigation.

*RIGHT TO LEGAL REPRESENTATION: Government may monitor federal prison jailhouse conversations between attorneys and clients, and deny lawyers to Americans accused of crimes.

*FREEDOM FROM UNREASONABLE SEARCHES: Government may search and seize Americans' papers and effects without probable cause to assist terror investigation.

*RIGHT TO A SPEEDY AND PUBLIC TRIAL: Government may jail Americans indefinitely without a trial.

*RIGHT TO LIBERTY: Americans may be jailed without being charged or being able to confront witnesses against them.

These rights have already been lost! Whether individual Americans have been personally subjected to the resultant tyranny or not doesn't change the fact that they have already lost these freedoms! This fact, alone, should be enough for any studious lover-of-liberty to be outraged!

That good men are compliant and unconcerned regarding G.W. Bush's propensity to trample constitutional freedoms bespeaks a great ignorance or a great apathy, or both!

Source: Freedoms Lost Under G.W. Bush

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

JGrubbs,

Did you vote in a free election last November? Have you not criticized the president and his policies right here in the public forum of this board for the past year? Have you not read publications that were critical of the president in the past year? Do you still? If you wanted to, could you emmigrate? (and no, this is not meant to be cute. You have to understand that there are people who are not allowed to leave tyrannical governments when they are not happy). You act as if you are living under Saddam. You have NO idea whatsoever what tyranny is and probably never will. But hey. Your message is fairly simple: Democracy for me, but not for thee. You got yours so who cares about the rest of the poor oppressed slobs living in tyranny.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Terry_Herrington]

Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
You are right about one thing though, many of the founding fathers were racist and immoral. It is too bad that their great words of wisdom did not include the Biblical principles of loving thy neighbor and standing up for the oppressed. No wonder they started out so bad.

Joseph Botwinick

I guess you would say that the "great and all-powerful" George W. Bush is superior to our founding fathers?

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

In some ways, yes he is.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[JGrubbs]

Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
Your message is fairly simple: Democracy for me, but not for thee. You got yours so who cares about the rest of the poor oppressed slobs living in tyranny.

So I guess your message is, "it makes me feel better to spread temporary freedom and democracy around the world, at least I don't have to think about the thousands of innocent babies being tourtured and killed daily in my own country and the liberty's and freedoms being erased in my own country, it probably won't affect me, so it's okay, my children and grandchildren may be persecuted as a result of this tyranny in America, but that's okay, because I can feel good about spreading some temporary freedom, maybe Jesus Christ will come back and rapture us and save us from the tyranny."

 

[Dragoon68]

Originally posted by JGrubbs:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
The truth is that you still live in a Democracy that allows freedom of speech, free press, free vote, and the right to emigrate. And you take that for granted as if you are oppressed while over 8 million Iraqis face the threat of toruture and death just for the simple right to cast their vote, and they still defy the terrorists. Ironic, isn't it?

The truth is that we live in a "Democracy" that refuses 4,000 babies a day freedom of speech, free press, free vote, etc. They face "toruture and death" on a daily basis. But, that is okay as long as we spend all of our resources to bring temporary freedom to everyone around the world, and pass a few parental notification laws every few years to keep the "Christians" here at home quiet.

Whose side would you fight on if another country felt the need to invade the US to liberate the thousands of babies that are tourtured and killed daily here in your "Democracy"? </font>[/QUOTE]Are you saying that because there's a problem with abortions we should do nothing else? Are you saying that another country would be right to invade us to force an end to it?

We should, indeed, put an end to abortions but we're also right in what we're doing in Iraq and has nothing to do with the matter of abortions.

Patrick

 

[Terry_Herrington]

Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
In some ways, yes he is.

Joseph Botwinick

This is, without a doubt, the most ignorant statement you have ever posted.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Do you idolize the founding fathers? Perhaps, you should go read the 10 commandments and the rest of the Bible which says that they are sinners just like you and me because I think you are committing idolatry.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[JGrubbs]

Originally posted by Dragoon68:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by JGrubbs:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
The truth is that you still live in a Democracy that allows freedom of speech, free press, free vote, and the right to emigrate. And you take that for granted as if you are oppressed while over 8 million Iraqis face the threat of toruture and death just for the simple right to cast their vote, and they still defy the terrorists. Ironic, isn't it?

The truth is that we live in a "Democracy" that refuses 4,000 babies a day freedom of speech, free press, free vote, etc. They face "toruture and death" on a daily basis. But, that is okay as long as we spend all of our resources to bring temporary freedom to everyone around the world, and pass a few parental notification laws every few years to keep the "Christians" here at home quiet.

Whose side would you fight on if another country felt the need to invade the US to liberate the thousands of babies that are tourtured and killed daily here in your "Democracy"? </font>[/QUOTE]Are you saying that because there's a problem with abortions we should do nothing else? Are you saying that another country would be right to invade us to force an end to it?

We should, indeed, put an end to abortions but we're also right in what we're doing in Iraq and has nothing to do with the matter of abortions.

Patrick </font>[/QUOTE]I'm saying that if we can spend the time, money and energy to spread temporary freedom throught the Middle East, then we can spend the time, money and energy to end abortion in America. If we are justified in invading Iraq to simply liberate the people of Iraq, then any other country that wants to invade the USA to simply liberate the preborn children would be justified as well. The sad truth is that most politicians and most voters, even those who profess to be Christians simply view abortion as a political problem that is simply ignored, while they put every other issue both here and abroad at a higher priority.

"Or how can you say to your neighbor, 'Friend, let me take out the speck in your eye,' when you yourself do not see the log in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your neighbor's eye."

 

[JGrubbs]

Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
Do you idolize the founding fathers? Perhaps, you should go read the 10 commandments and the rest of the Bible which says that they are sinners just like you and me because I think you are committing idolatry.

It is not committing idolatry to see that the founding fathers were 100 times better Americans that the socialist, NWO promoter George W. Bush.

 

[Terry_Herrington]

Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
Do you idolize the founding fathers? Perhaps, you should go read the 10 commandments and the rest of the Bible which says that they are sinners just like you and me because I think you are committing idolatry.

Joseph Botwinick

I would be surprised if you read the Bible at all. You have repeatedly equated our founding fathers with being pro-slavery; therefore, surely you would not be pro Old Testament.