Democrats and Abortion

[donnA]

Abortion more important than invading Iran?

well I don't know,,, how many babies have to die before they become important.

 

[go2church]

I'll phrase this questions in perhaps an unfair way, here goes,

1. What items are more important than the murder of millions of innocents?

2. How high on your list does the murder of millions of innocents come?

3. Does the importance on someone's list of the murder of millions of innocents amount to a kind of tolerance?

Please note in the final question I am not accusing you of anything, but it seems if something is considered "relatively" unimportant then there is a level of tolerance and acceptance there.

Relatively unimportant are your words not mine, I said it was not at the top of my list, doesn't mean it isn't on the list. Would put it right after outlawing capital punishment and yes, you are correct about there being a level of tolerance.

It just seems to me that there is a lot of blathering on about abortion from conservative Christians as an excuse not to do anything to help the poor already living, many times right down the street.

You want to stop abortion...you can make a HUGE dent by making sure every girl in your town graduates high school. Oh, but see that would take lots of hard work and you might have to hold off building that multi-million dollar sanctuary that sits empty 6 days out of the week. Don't tell me you care about life when you aren't doing anything to help those already born.

 

[just-want-peace]

Relatively unimportant are your words not mine, I said it was not at the top of my list, doesn't mean it isn't on the list. Would put it right after outlawing capital punishment and yes, you are correct about there being a level of tolerance.

(emphasis mine)

Do you mean you favor killing an innocent child, is LESS important to you than executing a convicted killer, rapist, child molester etc.?
Surely I am misreading your intent.
Please clarify this statement; Thanks!

It just seems to me that there is a lot of blathering on about abortion from conservative Christians as an excuse not to do anything to help the poor already living, many times right down the street.

Whew!!!! Pretty dogmatic in your judgements, aren't you? Seems that you have had a pretty bad experience with a "CHRISTIAN" somewhere along the way.

You want to stop abortion...you can make a HUGE dent by making sure every girl in your town graduates high school. Oh, but see that would take lots of hard work and you might have to hold off building that multi-million dollar sanctuary that sits empty 6 days out of the week.

They must have approved a building project that you don't agree with!

Agreed that this can be a "status" for some churches, but it's also necessary sometimes for a congregation to grow. The main sticking point here is whether God has led to expand, or, is the staff/congregation just wanting to show how successful they are by the "NEW" construction.

Don't tell me you care about life when you aren't doing anything to help those already born.

And of course you are knowledgable of all endeavors in this area; yes, no???

You might try going back to bed & getting up on the other side!:BangHead:

 

[mnw]

I feel like I went out of my way to phrase this questions in a friendly manner, maybe I did not succeed. But you seem to have become quite agitated about this.

Relatively unimportant are your words not mine, I said it was not at the top of my list, doesn't mean it isn't on the list. Would put it right after outlawing capital punishment and yes, you are correct about there being a level of tolerance.

Nobody said it was not on the list, I just wondered what you considered more important than millions of innocents.

As has already been pointed out it seems unthinkable that you would favour the murderers over the innocent. In fact, it seems down right immoral and depraved to favour a muderer over an unborn child. All I can imagine is that you do not believe the unborn child to be life. This is the only way I can imagine a person "tolerating" ANY abortion.

It just seems to me that there is a lot of blathering on about abortion from conservative Christians as an excuse not to do anything to help the poor already living, many times right down the street.

Blathering on? About protecting innocent MILLIONS?

By the way, your argument is a typical, old and absolutely non-sensical liberal pro-choice (pro-death) statement.

So, you're saying we should murder millions of innocents in order to give a better quality of life to the living?

Who says we are doing nothing for the existing poor?

One of the strong arguments that helped win the masses over to abortion 30-40 years ago was the argument that there would be less child abuse if the only child was a "wanted child". You know what happened instead? There is a direct link between the increase in abortions and the increase in child abuse.

You do not help the living by murdering the unborn.

You want to stop abortion...you can make a HUGE dent by making sure every girl in your town graduates high school. Oh, but see that would take lots of hard work and you might have to hold off building that multi-million dollar sanctuary that sits empty 6 days out of the week.

Hey fella, my church meets in rented rooms, where do you get a multi-million dollar sanctuary?

Again, your statement is just pro-choice rhetoric, you didn't even take the time to make sure your argument applied to the situation. Did you just copy and paste it from somewhere?

Don't tell me you care about life when you aren't doing anything to help those already born.

Seems this amounts to an unwarrented personal attack and worthy of deletion.

As I said, all I can think is that you do not consider the unborn child to be life.

 

[Baptist in Richmond]

Which candidate has stated that they "love abortion?"

That about covers it.

Nobody would expect anything more from you, carpro.
Thanks so much for your input.

I'm sure you know it's hyperbole.

So, you are stating that you didn't really have anyone in mind when you made the statement. Let's remember that the word "love" describes a specific opinion/viewpoint. If not stated, it's generally not a good idea to assign such a strong emotion to an entire group of Americans. This is especially true in the case of a topic that has so much potential to turn into an all-out fight.
Although I would STRONGLY disagree with your contention, we'll leave it at that.

However, none of the Democratic candidates realizes the gravity of the horrendous scourge of abortion.
If they did, they'd be pro-life.

Or perhaps simply roll out the issue in an election year just to shore up the captive base of true conservatives.

While religious issues such as abortion come up in U.S. political campaigns, I'm not sure how much they really mean. I think more often than not politicians see them as a mean to rally religious voters more than having a true belief in it themselves.

:thumbs:

Not love, but they will do everything to return partial birth abortion and have taxpayers pay for it.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/...8,1,639458.story?coll=chi-newsnationworld-hed

It is worth noting that this article only references three Democrats:
1. Elizabeth Edwards - she is not running for office.
2. Barak Obama - he didn't specifically address abortion, and the amplification came from an aide.
3. Hillary Clinton - she didn't really give an answer that would lead one to the conclusion you offer.
Most importantly, nobody made a comment that would indicate that "they will do everything to return partial birth abortion
and have taxpayers pay for it." Nobody said anything about partial-birth abortions, and nobody said anything about taxpayer-funded
partial-birth abortions.

Regards to all - even to you carpro,
BiR

 

[mnw]

Here are some important quotes by some of the democrat candidates and reps:

Obama

Obama then criticized Justice Anthony Kennedy, who penned the partial-birth abortion ban that passed 5-4 in April. "Justice Kennedy knows many things," declared Obama, "but my understanding is that he does not know how to be a doctor."

Sounds like he is in favour of partial birth abortion. Look up some facts and pictures of this procedure and then tell me how any right thinking human being could support such a thing. To get you started, it involves partially delivering a child, in the process often limbs are ripped off, then a hole is punched in the back of the skull and the brains sucked out. You do not have to be a doctor to know that is wrong!

"We must never be willing to consign a teenage girl to suffer because she [lacks] birth control."

I guess this is moving into the field of eugenics and it brings in other ethical issues as well as abortion itself. So Obama is saying we need to kill some people in order to improve the quality of life for others?

Here is Obama's reaction to the ban on partial birth abortion:

I strongly disagree with today's Supreme Court ruling, which dramatically departs from previous precedents safeguarding the health of pregnant women. As Justice Ginsburg emphasized in her dissenting opinion, this ruling signals an alarming willingness on the part of the conservative majority to disregard its prior rulings respecting a woman's medical concerns and the very personal decisions between a doctor and patient.

I am extremely concerned that this ruling will embolden state legislatures to enact further measures to restrict a woman's right to choose, and that the conservative Supreme Court justices will look for other opportunities to erode Roe v. Wade, which is established federal law and a matter of equal rights for women.

Obviously in favour of partial birth abortions. Concerning the health aspect, the last stats I saw showed that only about 2-4% of all abortions took place as a result of health concerns for the mother. Even then, partial birth is not necessary.

Hilary Clinton
According to this article Hilary Clinton, attacked the partial-birth abortion ban in her speech before the PPPAAF.

In reaction to the ban on partial birth abortions Hilary said this

This decision marks a dramatic departure from four decades of Supreme Court rulings that upheld a woman's right to choose and recognized the importance of women's health. Today's decision blatantly defies the Court's recent decision in 2000 striking down a state partial-birth abortion law because of its failure to provide an exception for the health of the mother. As the Supreme Court recognized in Roe v. Wade in 1973, this issue is complex and highly personal; the rights and lives of women must be taken into account.

It is precisely this erosion of our constitutional rights that I warned against when I opposed the nominations of Chief Justice Roberts and Justice Alito.

It has NOTHING to do with women's health, NOTHING at all! Medical procedures necessary to save a woman's life that may result in the death of the unborn has always been legal. It is a pro-choice (pro-death) red herring.

What about the Constitutional Rights of the innocent babies Hilary? The vast majority of doctors and scientists concur that life begins at conception, the Bible supports this view, but for some reason the refuse to see it.

John Edwards
Here is his reaction to the ban on partial birth abortions:

I could not disagree more strongly with today's Supreme Court decision. The ban upheld by the Court is an ill-considered and sweeping prohibition that does not even take account for serious threats to the health of individual women. This hard right turn is a stark reminder of why Democrats cannot afford to lose the 2008 election. Too much is at stake - starting with, as the Court made all too clear today, a woman's right to choose.

Another democrat in favour of the slaughter of innocents.

Here are the stats on the reasons people give for abortions:
http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/abreasons.html

Here is the link with the candidates reactions to the ban on partial birth abortions:
http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2007/apr/07041902.html

 

[StefanM]

So, you are stating that you didn't really have anyone in mind when you made the statement. Let's remember that the word "love" describes a specific opinion/viewpoint. If not stated, it's generally not a good idea to assign such a strong emotion to an entire group of Americans. This is especially true in the case of a topic that has so much potential to turn into an all-out fight.
Although I would STRONGLY disagree with your contention, we'll leave it at that.

I said "far-left" Democrats. I know that there are moderate Democrats who may be pro-choice but aren't militant.

LINK

From the link:

She [Elizabeth Edwards] went on to question Clinton's commitment to defending abortion rights, making a veiled reference to the former first lady's recent claim that abortions are tragedies.


"I don't think we should muddle the language," Edwards told the online magazine Tuesday. "Yes, we have to be able to talk to someone who's squeamish about it, but the question really is, who should make the decision? And it has to be the woman.

"Hillary may be expressing exactly what she believes -- I hope she is -- but the wiggle room in what she says makes me feel uncomfortable."

I'm sorry, but whenever someone takes issue with someone who says abortions are tragedies, there is a major, major problem.

 

[2 Timothy2:1-4]

Economics has nothing to do with keeping your pants zipped up. And the lack of money is not a reason to murder an innocent unborn child. Especially to wait until the latest term and deliver all but the head, shove a tube up the back of its neck inserting it into the skull and sucking the brains out. That is no better than Hilter or any serial killer. I hope thos who do such and support such either repent soon or answer to God for it quickly. This is hideous.

 

[just-want-peace]

I hope thos who do such and support such either repent soon or answer to God for it quickly. This is hideous.

(emphasis mine)

I would say that you are putting it VERY mildly!

 

[jet11]

It is worth noting that this article only references three Democrats:
1. Elizabeth Edwards - she is not running for office.
2. Barak Obama - he didn't specifically address abortion, and the amplification came from an aide.
3. Hillary Clinton - she didn't really give an answer that would lead one to the conclusion you offer.
Most importantly, nobody made a comment that would indicate that "they will do everything to return partial birth abortion
and have taxpayers pay for it." Nobody said anything about partial-birth abortions, and nobody said anything about taxpayer-funded
partial-birth abortions.

Regards to all - even to you carpro,
BiR

Then where are the retractions from Obama and John Edwards. I assume you have a link where they corrected the statements given by key members in their campaigns.

 

[go2church]

Obviously, pro-life doesn't mean pro-life. Where as you rank life I choose not to do so. Life is life and belongs in the hands of God, not the politically motivated hands of humanity. I of course was speaking in such a manner as to draw attention to the fact that in my mind capital punishment is as wrong as abortion. I want abortion to stop, but for me it is a heart and mind issue not a law issue. It has been turned into a football to be kicked around by both sides until those actually impacted by the decision to have or not have an abortion have been long forgotten or ignored. That being said, it is not the first issue I want to know about concerning a potential president.

So just to bring this discussion full circle, how have any of you actually helped a young lady who was pregnant?

How about this, what if all the money and time that have been spent on flyer's, protest signs, legal maneuvering and the like had been instead invested in the lives of those who where turning to abortion as a solution in a moment of crisis...what then?

It is frustrating to hear how awful abortion is and yet see very little expect lip service and protest signs actually being done to help those in need. If I came off grumpy, I guess in a manner of speaking I am but it is not without a reason.

 

[mnw]

Obviously, pro-life doesn't mean pro-life. Where as you rank life I choose not to do so. Life is life and belongs in the hands of God, not the politically motivated hands of humanity.

But capital punishment has been used politically by some. And to be honest, if it takes a little politics in order to legislate against abortion, which I believe is a proper role for the God-ordained role of government, then I will go along with politics.

I of course was speaking in such a manner as to draw attention to the fact that in my mind capital punishment is as wrong as abortion.

So the innocent baby in the womb deserves death just as like the homicidal maniac on death row? I believe in the sanctity of life but there is a huge difference between the two parties here.

The one has, with their God-given gift of life, wrongly taken the life of another human being. They used their life to take the God given life of another.

The baby is simply existing in the womb. She has done nothing deserving of death except come as the result of her parents actions.

I want abortion to stop, but for me it is a heart and mind issue not a law issue. It has been turned into a football to be kicked around by both sides until those actually impacted by the decision to have or not have an abortion have been long forgotten or ignored.

If we can reach the hearts and minds of people to stop abortion then amen! If we can see souls saved and convinced of the sanctity of life then that is great! But, are we to do away with all law and simply work on hearts and minds? I am sorry, but this sounds like another of the much used pro-choice arguments. I believe you are not of their camp, but you are using some of their lines.

That being said, it is not the first issue I want to know about concerning a potential president.

I understand it is not the only issue, but it must be pretty high on the list.

So just to bring this discussion full circle, how have any of you actually helped a young lady who was pregnant?

In a previous church there were actual instances, in recent months, due to the community in which I live, though our church and as a family we are willing and offering to help, there has not been the opportunity. I'll explain more if you want. But it simply is a matter of help being available but it not being accepted.

How about this, what if all the money and time that have been spent on flyer's, protest signs, legal maneuvering and the like had been instead invested in the lives of those who where turning to abortion as a solution in a moment of crisis...what then?

It is frustrating to hear how awful abortion is and yet see very little expect lip service and protest signs actually being done to help those in need. If I came off grumpy, I guess in a manner of speaking I am but it is not without a reason.

I gotta run so I need to cut this short. BUt I think it must be a two pronged approach. Opposing and at the same time supporting. Perhaps too much emphasis has been in some areas, and I agree it could be re-evaluated.

More later. Thanks for the reply go2church. I appreciate it.

 

[Baptist in Richmond]

I said "far-left" Democrats. I know that there are moderate Democrats who may be pro-choice but aren't militant.

I personally know "far-left" Democrats who are pro-life. On the same note, I know "far right" Libertarians who feel that this is a personal choice that should be left to the individual.

 

[Baptist in Richmond]

Then where are the retractions from Obama and John Edwards. I assume you have a link where they corrected the statements given by key members in their campaigns.

The point I was addressing was partial-birth abortions.

 

[StefanM]

I personally know "far-left" Democrats who are pro-life. On the same note, I know "far right" Libertarians who feel that this is a personal choice that should be left to the individual.

I suppose we're getting into semantics. I would not consider a pro-life Democrat to be "far-left." In my state there are some pro-life Democrats, and I have considered voting for them.

I also think that many Libertarians are wrong on this issue, as I think they are on drugs.

 

[2 Timothy2:1-4]

I also think that many Libertarians are wrong on this issue, as I think they are on drugs.

What kind of drugs are they on?:laugh:

 

[StefanM]

What kind of drugs are they on?:laugh:

If they had their way with the legal system, they could be on any drug you like!

 

[ShotGunWillie]

I have a feeling the topic of Abortion has been kicked around on this board for a long time and it will most likely be kicked around a lot longer, as long as abortion is legal, and even if it becomes illegal, it will still be an issue.

I would like to make some points

1. Abortion has been around for a long, long time. Throughout the OT, it is mentioned and it is an abomination unto God (Leviticus, Deu, 2Kings, Ezek). It is the same today as it was in those times, daily children "pass through the fire" at the hand of their "mothers". This practice was founded by practioners of the occult and done today. It has evolved from what it was then "passing through fire" to what it is now "being ripped apart", all to glorify the same god.

2. America will be judged heavily over abortion. Over 40 million INNOCENT lives have been taken because of abortion since 1973.

3. No one should ever compare capital punishment to abortion. They are not the same things. God's law states that if you take a life, your life is required of you. If you are a murderer, than a murderers death is due. As a murderer you are not innocent and a punishment is required, death. You know the penalty before the crime is committed, you know the cost. The child has no choice, his/her voice is not heard, judgement was made when no trial was conducted. The innocent lives should be spared.

 

[mnw]

For any one interested I preached two messages on this topic a few months back, and it has really been since then that I have been passionate about the issue.

I have just posted a blog on our church website that links to the sermons in audio and manuscript.

http://faithbc.wordpress.com/2007/07/26/the-bible-and-life-abortion/

 

[Ulsterman]

For me it is a heart and mind issue not a law issue.

Surely every sin is a "heart and mnd" isue, but that does not mean we do not legislate against it. Murder is a heart and mind issue, as is theft etc. It is the duty of government to protect is people, and surely people are no more vulnerable and in need of protection than when they are in the womb.