Denominational division

[Darron Steele]

Its "he" Darron, just so you don't have to keep typing "S/he".

Thanks, JSM17.

I appreciate that.

The definite article is found before faith in the Greek, showing that the faith, or the gospel, is meant.

Actually the Majority text

Your mistake is depending upon the Majority Text. The Majority Text is based on most manuscripts -- and most manuscripts come from the second millennium.

The Greek texts based on ancient manuscripts do not have that definite article. What Paul wrote in the New Testament era did not have it either.

teaches me that faith in Ephesians 2:8 does not refer to subjective faith,

This is a strange term. What do you mean "subjective faith"? It would help me understand you if you clarified it.

In my view, there is nothing subjective about faith on Jesus Christ. A person either really believes that Jesus Christ is Who He says He is, or s/he does not.

The rest of your post seems to be based on you following the defective medieval text, rather than the ancient text.

 

[Marcia]

Eph 2:8-9

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
NKJV

Does it say through faith alone?
Does it say not of all works?
.

It says, "saved through faith," and "not of works, lest anyone should boast." Do you not understand? It says said by faith, not by works so that no one can boast of being saved for having done something.

JUSTIFICATION, JUSTIFIER, JUSTIFY
dikaiosis NT:1347 denotes the act of pronouncing righteous, justification, acquittal"; its precise meaning is determined by that of the verb dikaioo, "to justify"
(from Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words, Copyright (c)1985, Thomas Nelson Publishers)

Vines is not reliable for all words. Look it up in something else. In fact, the hermeneutics prof at seminary told us not to use Vines.

Works like repentance?

Repentance is not a work. One is repentant when one trusts Christ. They go together because repentence is changing, turning away from which can only happen when one trusts Christ.

Heb 5:9

9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,
NKJV

Is faith alone the only obedience that God requires? Of course faith is not a work so we can't really obey Him through faith if it relies on us right? Thats your implication is it not?

If we have to obey then Heb 5:9 is contradicting other verses in the Bible. Hebrews was written to believers who were being tempted to hide their faith due to persecution. It is a very harsh book because it had a harsh message for those thinking of trying to act not Christian. Obedience is important for a believer but is not the way to be saved.

 

[JSM17]

Acts 5:32

32 And we are His witnesses to these things, and so also is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him."
NKJV

Does this passage not say that those who obey God are given the H.S.?

Is not repentance obedience towards God?

Does not godly sorrow lead to repentance? Does godly sorrow move us to obedience?



Eph 2:8-9

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
NKJV

AND THAT NOT OF YOURSELVES

Explain to me how this faith can not be of ourselves if it is a faith of ourselves that we come to?

Vines is not reliable for all words. Look it up in something else. In fact, the hermeneutics prof at seminary told us not to use Vines.

That is just one man's opinion, Vines is highly regarded throughout the world by many.

How about Strongs?

NT:1342

dikaios (dik'-ah-yos); from NT:1349; equitable (in character or act); by implication, innocent, holy (absolutely or relatively):


KJV - just, meet, right (-eous).
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright (c) 1994, Biblesoft and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

 

[DHK]

Acts 5:32

32 And we are His witnesses to these things, and so also is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him."
NKJV

Does this passage not say that those who obey God are given the H.S.?

Acts 5:32-33 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.
33 When they heard that, they were cut to the heart, and took counsel to slay them.

No, it does not say that.
The Pharisees were good at obedience. Theirs was a religion of works. They tithed of ALL that they had. They ceremonially washed all things. They were very meticulous in keeping the law, in all the works, in their obedience toward God, and yet had not the Holy Spirit. Obedience was not their problem.

Their problem was belief, or specifically unbelief.
They had rejected Christ as their Messiah, as their Saviour. The Apostles gave witness that He was the Messiah; the He rose again; that all who believe on him would have eternal life. This they would not believe. And that is the disobedience that is referred to here.

Is not repentance obedience towards God?

No, Repentance is not a work. Repentance is a change of mind with respect to one's attitude toward God. It is not obedience.
God demands regeneration NOT reformation. Reformation seems to be the COC teaching. That is a false teaching; it is the teaching of almost every false religion in the world.

Does not godly sorrow lead to repentance? Does godly sorrow move us to obedience?

No. Not for an unsaved person. This verse was written to saved individuals. It is impossible for an unsaved person to have anything that is Godly. He cannot have Godly sorrow for he is not saved and does not have the Holy Spirit. He is a child of the devil. How can a child of the devil have Godly sorrow??

Eph 2:8-9

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
NKJV

AND THAT NOT OF YOURSELVES

Explain to me how this faith can not be of ourselves if it is a faith of ourselves that we come to?

You are not paying attention to the subject. You have been saved...not of yourselves.
By grace--prepositional phrase.
Through faith--prepositional phrase.
Subject--You
Verb--are saved
Conjunction--and. (compound sentence with an understood "is")
subject--that (referring to salvation)
adverb--not
prepositional phrase--of yourselves.
subject--"IT" subject (referring to salvation)

The verse speaks of salvation, not of faith. It is salvation that is not of yourselves; not of works.
Those are simple prepositional phrases that refer straight back to the verb at the beginning of the sentence "are saved," speaking of salvation. The entire verse speaks of salvation. Concentrate on the simple subject (you), and the simple verb (saved), and you will have much less problem understanding this verse.