denominationlism is a sin

[Bro Tony]

This is EXACTLY what has happened with the introduction of instrumental music.

Gotta run. Hope you could follow my logic.[/quote]

Oh brother!

Bro Tony

 

[Tom Butler]

Okay, for purposes of discussion, let's all agree that denominationalism is a sin.

Jim2999 suggested what all of us are thinking. Change your views to mine and we'll all be happy. Of course, that's not gonna happen.

So, what will it take to get us all together? What are we going to cast aside in the name of unity? What are the non-essentials that we should dump to erase those barriers?

Now, what about the things we consider essential? If we won't give them up, then the only thing we have left is to downplay them. So let's pick the things all of us can agree on and make them the basis for our unity. The Charismatics have shown us the way by making the gifts of the Spirit their unifying point.

So what are those things?

 

[Jim1999]

Maintain our denominations where we do not have to sacrifice any doctrines or practices. We are then left to enjoy the fellowship of other believers at ecumenical services, gospel rallies and the like...or even social teas.

I think denominations are the God-ordained way of maintaining unity.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Marcia: I do not see it as pertinent since I don't have time to persuade the Church of Christ to accept musical instruments. In fact, I think this kind of thing detracts from time and energy for the important stuff like spreading the gospel, bible study, growing in Christ, etc. We can't fix Christians who choose to divide over things like musical instruments. If they feel it's sin, then you just let them go their way. It's even a waste of time, imo, to discuss musical instruments with them.

HP: I believe on this point I will have to agree with you. There is one Scripture that comes to mind. “Mt 23:24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.” I have had some from the COC trying to illuminate my mind as to the evils of musical instruments within the assembly, while blowing smoke from their nostrils via a filthy tobacco habit.

Moving right along…….

 

[MorganT]

First lets see what webster defines denomination
Denomination
DENOMINATION, n.

1. The act of naming.

2. A name or appellation; a vocal sound, customarily used to express a thing or a quality, in discourse; as, all man fall under the denomination of sinners; actions fall under the denomination of good or bad.

3. A class, society or collection of individuals, called by the same name; as a denomination of christians.

According to the definition of webster everyone is under some form of denomination even the Church of Chirst because they are a collection of individuals called by the same name therefore they are IN FACT a denomination.:sleep:

 

[Ed Edwards]

The Doctrine of Seperation (DOS) causes the
appearance of denominationalism. Is the
Doctrine of Seperation (DOS) a sin?

"come ye out from among them"

I have a friend that has dropped out of my church.
He is thinking about starting his own house church,
i.e. he is going to start a new denomination because
my denomination is too denominational.


The most hypocritical word of all is:
'non-denominational'. Makes about as
much sense as a 'mileless road trip' (even if
the car wouldn't start and you went knowhere,
you went some number of miles, here zero miles)

 

[Rippon]

It has been said about my old church background -- the Plymouth Brethren -- that they stove with all their might to be non-denominational and in consequence became more sectarian than the rest .

 

[Rippon]

I am in agreemet with Jim -- denominations are God-ordained . From our vantage point we see mainly the negative aspects , but I sure am glad that there are distinctives in Churches . I certainly would not want to be infellowship with some groups having hetrodoxical theology . That's why I think it is important that Churches have a creedal statement . The church body needs to codify their main beliefs -- it is good for them and good for others to see .

Iain Murray has a wonderful updated bio of A.W. Pink . It in Pink says the following .

Whatever blame may or may not rest upon men for the existence of the various evangelical denominations in Christendom , let not the superintending hand of God therein be lost sight of . In our readiness to criticize former leaders -- which charity requires us to believe were at least equally devoted to the Lord and as anxious to conform to his word as we are -- we need to be much on our guard lest we be found quarrelling with Divine providence ... We are either very ignorant of history or superficial readers thereof , if we fail to perceive the guiding hand of God and his "manifold wisdom" in the appointing and blessing of the leading evangelical denominations ...

 

[Darron Steele]

Okay, for purposes of discussion, let's all agree that denominationalism is a sin.

Jim2999 suggested what all of us are thinking. Change your views to mine and we'll all be happy. Of course, that's not gonna happen.

So, what will it take to get us all together? What are we going to cast aside in the name of unity? What are the non-essentials that we should dump to erase those barriers?

Now, what about the things we consider essential? If we won't give them up, then the only thing we have left is to downplay them. So let's pick the things all of us can agree on and make them the basis for our unity. The Charismatics have shown us the way by making the gifts of the Spirit their unifying point.

So what are those things?

I suggest that it is explained in Scripture. Denominations are made up of churches. What do we meet as churches for?

Hebrews 10:24-5 "let us consider one another to provoke unto love and good works; not forsaking our own assembling together, as the custom of some is, but exhorting one another; and so much the more, as ye see the day drawing nigh" (ASV).
Our purpose is to meet and encourage each other to do good works and to love.

While we are assembled for this purpose, there are doctrines to be taught, but as churches we do not assemble for these doctrines but to serve the Lord in love and in the good deeds He taught us.

The notion that we must all have the same opinion on what Scripture teaches for doctrine on Sunday before we can have any unity is not Scriptural; our unity must be in purpose: serving the Lord.

I would suggest that any time we have an unbiblical reason hinder us from doing what is taught in Scripture, we act contrary to Scripture.

 

[Rippon]

To continue with what Pink said on this issue :

We have lived long enough and travelled sufficiently , to discover that no one "church" , company , or man , has all the truth , and as we grow older we have less patience with those who demand that others adopt their interpretation of Scripture on all points ...
On first entering the school of Christ most of us expected to find little difference between members of the same family , but more extensive acquaintance with them taught us better , for we found their minds varied as much as their countenances , their temperments more than their local accents of seech and that amid general agreement their were wide divergences of opinions and sentiments in many things . While all God's people are taught of him , yet they know but "in part" and the "part" one knows may not be the part which another knows . All the saints are indwelt by the Holy Spirit , yet he does not operate uniformly in them nor bestow identical gifts ( 1 Cor. 12:8-11 ) .Thus opportunity is afforded us to"forbear one another in love" ( Eph. 4:2 ) and not make a man an offender for a word or despise those who differ from me . Growth in grace is evidenced by a spirit of clemency and toleration , granting to others the same right of private judgment and liberty as I claim for myself . The mature Christian , generally , will subscribe to that axiom , " In essentials unity , in non-essentials liberty , in all things charity . ( from my last post to this one -- all are from pages 306 - 311 in Murray's bio of AWP )

 

[Darron Steele]

The Doctrine of Seperation (DOS) causes the
appearance of denominationalism. Is the
Doctrine of Seperation (DOS) a sin?

"come ye out from among them"

The passage quoted is from 2 Corinthians 6:17. Does that passage not apply to Christians separating from non-Christians?

I do not see it authorizing divisions among Christians.

I do see Romans 16:17 teaching against causing divisions among Christians.

 

[mman]

I am in agreemet with Jim -- denominations are God-ordained ... That's why I think it is important that Churches have a creedal statement . The church body needs to codify their main beliefs -- it is good for them and good for others to see

Let's think about this for a minute.

What makes one denomination different from another? DIFFERENCES. If there were no differences, there would be no denominations. Creeds are man made documents that codify those differences.

What does the scripture say?

I Cor 1:10 "I appeal to you, brothers, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment."

Is that God's way of ordaining division?

God must be worshiped in truth. When differing acts are practiced in worship, can both be according to truth? When God said we must worship Him in truth does that open the door for man to worship God the way that man likes, regardless of what the truth is?

When the Galatians perverted the gospel, they did this by changing the gospel. The only way to change the gospel is to add to it or take away from it.

What was their great sin that would cause them to be accursed (anathema)? They added circumcision as a requirement for salvation. They did not deny that Jesus was the Christ, the Son of the Living God. They did not leave anything undone but rather added to what God had said.

The Old Testament is for our learning. I wonder what advise Nadab and Abihu would give folks today? Go ahead and worship God however you choose, it doesn't matter what He said, just do what you like.

When creeds are used, there is a possibility for the following to occur, "in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.'" - Matt 15:9

If creeds are necessary, then God's word is not all sufficient (All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. - II Tim 3:16-17)

If creeds are not necessary, then why have them since we have God's word?

In scripture, whenever there was a deviation from the pattern, whether the Lord's Supper in Corinth or the Preaching in the churches of Galatia, it was always "corrected", and never allowed to continue.

 

[mman]

Okay, for purposes of discussion, let's all agree that denominationalism is a sin.

Jim2999 suggested what all of us are thinking. Change your views to mine and we'll all be happy. Of course, that's not gonna happen.

So, what will it take to get us all together? What are we going to cast aside in the name of unity? What are the non-essentials that we should dump to erase those barriers?

Now that may be a long and varied list, but can be summed up in a sentence. Dump everything that is not necessary or expedient in executing a command or approved example.

Now, what about the things we consider essential? If we won't give them up, then the only thing we have left is to downplay them. So let's pick the things all of us can agree on and make them the basis for our unity. The Charismatics have shown us the way by making the gifts of the Spirit their unifying point.

So what are those things?

What did the early church do in their worship and what do we have instructions to do?

Sang (Col 3:16, Eph 5:19)
Gave of their means (I Cor 16:2)
Participated in the Lord's supper (Acts 20:7)
Prayed (I Cor 14:15)
Preached (Acts 20:7)

If we truly want unity, then we will throw away the creeds and man made documents that divide us and return only the our pattern, the word of God.

If you wanted 10 ladies (or men for that matter) to each make a dress, and you wanted all 10 dresses to be the same, you would give each one the same pattern.

What would be required of the 10 in order to make the dresses the same? Each would have to follow the pattern to the best of their ability. When the pattern said, "cut along this line", you cut along that line. It did not say how to cut, so that is not important. You can cut with manual sissors, electric sissors, a knife, a razor blade or whatever else as long as the cut was made.

If each followed the pattern, then the dresses would be the same.

If however, one in the group decided they wanted the dress to be different because of their own likes, and no where in the instructions did it say "not to" make changes, would that dress be like the other dresses? Let's say they added a pocket there, added a split in the side, omitted the collar, changed the hem, adjusted the sleeve length, etc, then that dress is going to be much different.

Unless that pattern is followed we will never have unity. When it is opened up to "what ever is not strictly forbidden is permitted", then man's imagination is the limit to the resulting divisions.

Let's use the pattern of the church we read about in the New Testament. Let's follow their approved examples.

 

[mman]

HP: I believe on this point I will have to agree with you. There is one Scripture that comes to mind. “Mt 23:24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.” I have had some from the COC trying to illuminate my mind as to the evils of musical instruments within the assembly, while blowing smoke from their nostrils via a filthy tobacco habit.

Moving right along…….

HP - If you are looking for someone sinless, then you are going to ALWAYS be disappointed. In fact, the standard you set for others, you yourself would not pass.

Baalam heard a message from a donkey. Just because it was from a donkey did not make it untrue. If God required perfection in order to teach others, there would be no one qualified.

Yes, moving right along...........

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Mman: HP - If you are looking for someone sinless, then you are going to ALWAYS be disappointed. In fact, the standard you set for others, you yourself would not pass.

Baalam heard a message from a donkey. Just because it was from a donkey did not make it untrue. If God required perfection in order to teach others, there would be no one qualified.

Yes, moving right along...........

HP: Possibly we need to slow down a bit and not move along quite yet. What standard have I set for myself that I would not pass?

Since when is having enough common sense to know and understand the evils of smoking upon ones health and the health of others, to say nothing about the damage to ones witness, or the wasteful spending of the finances God has entrusted us with, equitable to ‘perfection?’

 

[genesis12]

Dustin ~~~ there is / was only one unpardonable sin. What shall we do? Ask God for forgiveness? On what basis? Who will set the standard? Shall we all abandon our denominational buildings? If we do, where are we to congregate? If we abandon the name of our denomination and stay in the same buildings, what will have changed? Do we remove the organ? Do we toss out anyone who brings in a pitch pipe? Will you come over and instruct us in rightly dividing scripture? Will you send missionaries to us? Who will sit in judgment of our doctrine, once we've been forgiven, and you've straightened us out? You sound like a very young Christian, or one who has only recently come to the faith. If I'm wrong, then IMHO you are not growing in knowledge, wisdom, and strength - you are majoring on minors, swallowing a camel while straining at a gnat.

 

[Jim1999]

quote:

What does the scripture say?

I Cor 1:10 "I appeal to you, brothers, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment."

Is that God's way of ordaining division?
-------------------------------------------

As I said in one post, come over and join the Church of England, and we will instruct you in the way you should go, and we will have perfect unity.

I fear you are swatting at the fly that left the scene several centuries ago.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Jim: As I said in one post, come over and join the Church of England, and we will instruct you in the way you should go, and we will have perfect unity.

HP: Your promise of unity sounds too much like the one offering security via a jail cell.

 

[God's Word is TRUTH]

Dustin ~~~ there is / was only one unpardonable sin. What shall we do? Ask God for forgiveness? On what basis? Who will set the standard? Shall we all abandon our denominational buildings? If we do, where are we to congregate? If we abandon the name of our denomination and stay in the same buildings, what will have changed? Do we remove the organ? Do we toss out anyone who brings in a pitch pipe? Will you come over and instruct us in rightly dividing scripture? Will you send missionaries to us? Who will sit in judgment of our doctrine, once we've been forgiven, and you've straightened us out? You sound like a very young Christian, or one who has only recently come to the faith. If I'm wrong, then IMHO you are not growing in knowledge, wisdom, and strength - you are majoring on minors, swallowing a camel while straining at a gnat.

the point is the bible says DIVISION IS A SIN.

In Chrisitan Love,

dustin

 

[Jim1999]

You sinners! You have all divided off the Churchof England. Repent, and get back here. Good Lord, how much longer is this foolishness to go on?

Cheers,

Jim