Depression

[Bible Believing Bill]

Dr. Cassidy

Since somehow the computer gremlins ate our posts I still have a question for you. Is it your position that grief over the loss of a loved one is a sin? If I am understanding you correctly do you have scripture to back it up? I agree that by placing our faith in God, He will ease our pain and get us through these tough times, but I don't see that grief is a sin.

 

[myreflection26]

My husband suffers from severe depression to the point of not being able to hold down a job and shutting himself off from everyone else including myself and our son.

We went to a christian physcologist and he ran a test that told us that my husband has a chemical imbalance in his system to make him feel down and not be able to handle stress. I believe with all my heart that Christian physcologists are very biblical and have a very important job to do. Basically they are there to listen to your problems and help you search out answers in the bible to help you spiritually in your life but also giving you practical tips on how to cope in your life as well. Kind of like a medical doctor sitting down and saying well this is the problem and this is a solution so you can get better. Christian phsycologists are trained to know how the human mind works and different personalities of different people so they can help you determine the practical and use biblical principles to confirm and live in truth.

I believe God has placed those types of people in this world for a reason and I'm so glad because otherwise my husband and I might not be married today and my husband might not even be alive.

Sue

 

[HankD]

I believe Christians can and should take medication for emotional stress and related problems as long as they realize that the medication, for the most part, is dealing with the symptoms. After all whats the difference between taking medication for a head ache versus a soul ache?
The root cause takes therapy with the Great Physician.

HankD

 

[Larry]

Could somebody PLEASE give me the name of just one chemical that gets out of balance?

Thank you, Larry (not preacher Larry)

This is an excerpt of a transcript of a counceling session between a very depressed man and a wonderful councilor.


Job 38:1-8
Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
Who [is] this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?
Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.
Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
Or [who] shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, [as if] it had issued out of the womb?

Job 40:1-8
Moreover the LORD answered Job, and said,
Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct [him]? he that reproveth God, let him answer it.
Then Job answered the LORD, and said,
Behold, I am vile; what shall I answer thee? I will lay mine hand upon my mouth.
Once have I spoken; but I will not answer: yea, twice; but I will proceed no further.
Then answered the LORD unto Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
Gird up thy loins now like a man: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me.
Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous?

Job 42:1-46
Then Job answered the LORD, and said,
I know that thou canst do every [thing], and [that] no thought can be withholden from thee.Who [is] he that hideth counsel without knowledge? therefore have I uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not.
Hear, I beseech thee, and I will speak: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me.
I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee Wherefore I abhor [myself], and repent in dust and ashes.

[ August 25, 2001: Message edited by: Larry ]

 

[Chris Temple]

I am amazed that no one has mentioned or given any credence to spiritual depression.

The Puritans had an entire pastoral theology concerning spiritual depression. They clearly systematized and articulated the condition of spiritual depressions and desertions by the Holy Spirit of the believer (going back to the point of a break in fellowship Chet, between God and believer). They listed conditions as:

1. a lack of sense of God’s presence
2. lack of strength of present graces
3. an unwillingness to apply present comforts
4. lack of assurance and fear of the future

They listed the causes of spiritual desertions and depressions:

1. the Holy Spirit
a. out of sovereignty
b. to show us our dependence on him
c. to develop Christian grace in us
d. to weaken and prevent sin
e. to chastise for gross sin
f. to keep us near himself
g. that we might comfort others

2. our own hearts
a. mental depression
b. false reasonings unregulated by Scripture
c. human emotions unregulated by Scripture

3. Satan
a. That he does it
b. Why he does it
c. How he does it
d. When he does it

And They listed the cure of spiritual desertions and depressions:

1. fly to God
2. trust in God
a. in his Son
b. in his providence
c. in his promises
d. in nothing else
3. put conviction of sin into perspective
4. do your part in all this
a. seek to praise God more than to be delivered
b. praise him for what he has done in the past
c. do your “first works”
d. when you cannot do what you would, do what you can

All of these points are clearly and excellently extrapolated in The Genius of Puritanism by Peter Lewis, 1996, Soli Deo Gloria Publications. Morgan PA. (412) 221-1901 ISBN 1-57358-031-7.

 

[TomVols]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by bustr:
Depression has to be experienced to be appreciated. Dysthemia (sp) can be analyzed by a doctor with an interview. It doesn't take a blood test. This isn't something that should even be debated. Medications work and should be used immediately upon analysis of the condition.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

First, while experiencing depression gives people unique insights into depression, to day that it can only be known by being experienced is not a wise statement. No one who has genuinely experienced depression would want anyone else to undergo it (Spurgeon made statements that he wouldn't wish his times of depression on his worst enemies). Further, much can be learned of depression by dealing closely with people who are involved in depression. Counselors, loved ones, etc., know an awful lot about depression even though they've never went through it but have close contacts who have.
Second, I disagree that depression should immediately be treated with medications. In our health system, thanks to HMOs, insurance companies, and doctor over-booking, a 15 minute q & a with a doctor or nurse practitioner is simply not enough to assertain the root causes of and extent of depression. SSRIs still do have complicated side effects, and the ability of general doctors and in some states even nurse practitioners and med assistants to prescribe these drugs is harmful. Depression can indeed have strictly organic/physiological roots. But sometimes there are spiritual issues that must be addressed, and PAs/MDs simply are not qualified to do so. So they do the only thing they know to do - whip out a prescription pad. Meds should be a last resort or an emergency stop gap, and short term at that, barring physical factors that require long-term approach. In my counseling ministry as a pastor, I have seen far too much addiction and further complications from SSRIs used long term stemming from doctors trying to kill a mosquito with a cannon.

For a good resource, see "Psychology and Christianity: Four Views" (IVP)

 

[DocCas]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by NewBeliever:
Is it your position that grief over the loss of a loved one is a sin?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Depression, as a result of grief, is usually caused by a refusal to bow the knee to the Soverignty of God. Grief is not a sin, but the failure to trust in God, and thus lapse into depression is.

 

[Jude]

I have lived with an anxiety disorder for perhaps 20 years. In the 'eighties' I used alcohol -heavily- to medicate this condition. In 1988, I gave up alcohol, and believe that God healed me -immediately- of the addiction. Other things were not-so-quickly taken care of. The road to healing was long and hard. I too suffered depression for 2 years AFTER giving up 'drink'...as is common for alcoholics who quit drinking. I can testify that NNE, other than those who suffered in this way, has any idea how bad this really is. It is not a matter of 'positive thinking'. It is not a matter of telling yourself to 'stop' and just 'trust the Lord'. (I hope you understand what I mean by that). The depression, thank the Lord, is pretty-much gone in my life. But the anxiety is not. Occasionally, I'll take Xanax to relieve the symptoms. How interesting, you can have a bad heart or bad lungs or a bad leg, and the Church has a lot of sympathy for you. But if you have a chemical imbalance in the brain, you are somehow 'less than' or 'not quite' a Christian. Yes, we are to 'cast our cares on Him'...but I don't think that this means we ingore medicine or medical science, INCLUDING psychiatry. One other point, if your heart was really bad and required surgery, and the best heart surgeon in the country happened to be Hindu, would you go to another doctor, or would you want the best? Same with psychiatry, it seems to me.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Jude, It is interesting how you are apparently not reading this thread.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>How interesting, you can have a bad heart or bad lungs or a bad leg, and the Church has a lot of sympathy for you. But if you have a chemical imbalance in the brain, you are somehow 'less than' or 'not quite' a Christian.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Everyone here who is saying be careful with drugs has admitted the possibility of chemical imbalances. We have also said that it should be tested. If you can identify a chemical imbalance, then treat it. Psychiatry generally does not test for an imbalance.

By the way, which chemical in you is imbalanced and what test did they do to verify it?

No one here is suggesting to ignore medicine or medical science, especially when it comes to chemical imbalances. What we are saying is that most depression is not related to chemical imbalances. On most people, there are no tests done to determine it.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>One other point, if your heart was really bad and required surgery, and the best heart surgeon in the country happened to be Hindu, would you go to another doctor, or would you want the best? Same with psychiatry, it seems to me.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I went to a Muslimi internist for several procedures earlier this year. He treated me medically and did just fine (although it was hard to understand him). He did not talk about my thought processes or offer any spiritual help.

If you had a heart problem and needed surgery, would you go to an auto mechanic? Even if he was the best in the country? Of course not. You would go to someone qualified to deal with the problem. The same thing is true about depression and anxiety that is not medically tested and traced to an identified chemical imbalance. You do not go to a physical doctor to deal with a problem that is not physical. You should go to someone qualified to deal with "diseases" of the spiritual life.

[ August 25, 2001: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]

 

[Dr. Bob]

I often get depressed reading some of the threads on the BaptistBoard.

But not this one! Very good insights and mature discussion and I get blessed scanning it daily.

Thanks to all willing to be open and share!

 

[Chet]

There are some wonderful thoughts here. Good postings. Larry, I thought you did an
excellent job, they were well thought out and scriptural. Pastor Larry, Tom, Chris. I am learning some things here.

I wrote this once but the computer must have ate it, and unlike Jesus, Chet did not save.

There is a Doctor who understand the mind very well. He is the one who created it. He understands our troubles, as he was here to experience them. He also knows how to help those problems. Larry pointed out that He is the same counselor that helped Mr. Job in his troubles. He has said,

Phil 4:6-9
Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with
thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God. And the peace of
God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds
through Christ Jesus. Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true,whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure,whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things. Those things, which ye have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me, do: and the God of peace shall be with you.
KJV

Does this passage of Scripture only apply if your just a little depressed? Then we take the prescription if we are a lot depressed? I think some are missing this wonderful passage.

Chris Temple pointed out some very good things. In that list there are some
misunderstandings about who God is. Or misunderstood doctrines, which could lead
to depression. Its all about dependency, and if your depending on the wrong thing then
you will be disappointed. And as harsh as it does sound, often self is where we put our dependencies. Consider what Jesus said:

John 8:32
And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
KJV

Well then the opposite must also be true. If you are free when you have the truth, then if you are believing in err then you are in bondage. Which could lead to depression. Certainly if our mind is dwelling on things we can’t control, and can’t possibly know the outcome of then we are thinking on err. And if our understanding of God is mistaken, then too we are living in err.

Notice what God says

2 Tim 1:7
For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.
KJV

Recently I was speaking with a Pastor. He was going through some terrible events in his
life, a tremendous load. Some of it, as he had admitted, had been brought on by himself.
Yet some problems were uncontrollable. He is suffering from great depression, and has
now for a while. He has been taking some anti-depressant drugs. As we were talking he was sharing with me one of the side affects. It makes his hands numb. He can’t feel his finger tips. This saddens my heart so much. His dependency has been misplaced. I believe that, because I believe the Scriptures teach us the true dependency is God who is waiting to give us the grace we need. Listen to what Gods word says as he speaks to us through the writer of Hebrews. Listen to what our great physician has to say:

Heb 4:11-5:1
Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience. For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account. Seeing then that we have a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was
in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.
NKJV


With love,

Chet

[ August 25, 2001: Message edited by: Chet ]

 

[bustr]

Some people aren't understanding here. Depression is caused by low seratonin levels in the brain. It has nothing to do with the way you look at things or you "perspective" or your "attitude". It's no more of an "outlook" than a severed limb is.

 

[Brother Adam]

I'm afraid I gotta agree with bstur here- You can quote as much scripture as you want but its not going to increase the chemical balance in your brain.

Some practical things I have done though besides my medication include:

Running- to increase the levels of seritonin in my brain

Removing some of the factors of stress in my life that needn't be there

listening to uplifting music

Getting out there and forcing myself to interact with people and be social.

Yet my life is better because of the meds. and it is true that you need to treat depression like you treat any wound- with medication if necessary.

Until Next Post, Adam

 

[Lorelei]

After following this thread since it began I have a few comments and question to add.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by bustr:
Some people aren't understanding here. Depression is caused by low seratonin levels in the brain. It has nothing to do with the way you look at things or you "perspective" or your "attitude". It's no more of an "outlook" than a severed limb is.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


I think this is the first time that anyone ever stated exactly "what" was missing. (unless i Missed it somewhere) Someone had asked earlier exactly what chemicals were imbalanced and no one answered.

Now I will ask those with low seratonin levels, how were you tested to determine your levels were low? What determined that this was the cause of your depression?

I have a friend tell me just the other day that she went to the doctor and found out why she was "so out of it" lately. She is depressed!! The doctor asked her if she ever thought of suicide and she said yes. Guess what, she now has a drug to help with her depression. I would hope that anyone that was going to give me a drug to balance out chemicals in my brain would have some method to make sure that they were necessary. He just asked a few questions, diagnosed a problem, and gave the prescription!

Shouldn't there be some means of finding out medically if the chemical is out of balance or not? This is the brain we are dealing with. What if I take this and my seratonin is not low? Now I have too much! Would you take a heart medication without any medical verification that it was absolutlely needed?

I am not saying that there is never a case to medically treat someone for depression, but I do not think it necessary in many of the cases where it is practiced.

~Lorelei

 

[DocCas]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by bustr:
Some people aren't understanding here.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>No, Bustr, it is you who has failed to understand. We are talking about functional depression, not organic depression. Got it now?

 

[Chris Temple]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lorelei:
Shouldn't there be some means of finding out medically if the chemical is out of balance or not? This is the brain we are dealing with. What if I take this and my seratonin is not low? Now I have too much! Would you take a heart medication without any medical verification that it was absolutlely needed? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As I understand the issue of brain chemical imbalance, these points should be considered:

1. There are no indentifiable standard levels of brain chemicals. There are RDAs for vitamins, but no one knows what a "normal" level for brain chemistry is.

2. Brain chemicals have not been exhuastively identified. The exact amount and types of chemicals interacting in the brain at any given moment is unknown.

3. The only way to measure brain chemistry is through autopsy . There is no way to measure brain chemistry in a living, breathing person. And even then, the brain chemistry, assumed to be dynamic while living, is affected by the death of the patient.

According to Dr. Frank Catanzaro of SEBTS, the brain chemistry argument is simply an unprovable hypothesis by the psychiatric community.

 

[Karen]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lorelei:
...
I think this is the first time that anyone ever stated exactly "what" was missing. (unless i Missed it somewhere) Someone had asked earlier exactly what chemicals were imbalanced and no one answered...
He just asked a few questions, diagnosed a problem, and gave the prescription! ...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I would dispute your comments a little.
For example, last night, I took my husband to the E.R. He thankfully was dismissed several hours later and is better. He had physical symptoms common to several different illnesses. They ran tests and THINK they know what happened and gave us a name for it, but they are not really sure.
I am not a doctor and barely can pronounce some of the terms they used much less judge every implication. At some level, I trust their judgement.
Analogously, just because the depressed person himself cannot say more than "chemical imbalance" does not mean that he cannot trust the judgement of his doctor.
I have gone to my doctor for more than twenty years, and he has demonstrated many times his ability. Yes, I have responsibility, but no, I am not a doctor.
...
Re: other posts on this thread:
The time-line of depression is important.
KeeperofMyHome, an important detail you did not mention about your sister is the time element of her situation. If her whole life for 15 years has been consumed by this, that can present somewhat different issues than having to deal with it for the last three weeks.
...
I have dealt with the death of a child, too,
Thomas. There is probably nothing harder on this earth. In your analysis, though, you could have said more about the time element, too. There are people who can never function again, and yes, there are issues to deal with regarding faith in God. However, I have seen too many people on the outside of such situations expect parents to "snap out of it" in 3 weeks and just be glad the child is in Heaven. It takes longer than a month of grief for a new widow who was married 50 years. Grief is a process, and it is not always tidy.
...
I recommend the Psalms (David knew about grief and depression). I also recommend Tracks of a Fellow Struggler by Claypool
and A Grief Observed by C.S. Lewis.

Karen

 

[Brother Adam]

"According to Dr. Frank Catanzaro of SEBTS, the brain chemistry argument is simply an unprovable hypothesis by the psychiatric community."

It may be an unprovable hypothesis, but meds sure do help me! I was in counsoling for several months and then went in to see a M.D. and I was offically diagnosed with Dysthemia disorder (mild depression) and the doc said the only way to tell if meds will help is to try them. They haven't made very signifigant changes but they have helped me lead a better life.

I don't claim to know the knowledge behind how it all works, but can anyone show any real scripture showing how the use of medicines to better ones life is wrong?

Until Next Post, Adam

 

[Larry]

Ok, so assuming that the seratonin level is out of balance in a depressed person, could the imbalance be a result of the depression?

If I eat too much, I get a fat imbalance. I could get Liposuction and that would correct the imbalance, but unless I changed the way I eat I would have to get Liposuction every other week

 

[Brother Adam]

"Ok, so assuming that the seratonin level is out of balance in a depressed person, could the imbalance be a result of the depression?"

Like people who are overwieght, it can be genetic. Or it may not be genetic, but if it is not genetic than it is likely that it is not caused by low seratonin levels. I'm no M.D. though, but that is what I have been told.

Until Next Post, Adam