Depression

[Jim1999]

It finally dawned on me. If only I would get right with God in my spiritual relationship my strokes would disappear; my short-term memory would be restored; my diabetes would be gone and the resultant mood swings, states of depression and feelings of despair. John 3:16..John 3:16..John 3:16.......How many times does one have to say it again? I forgot.

God bless all those who have experienced depression and other ailments of the mind and body. Sometimes a pill will buy some time whilst your mind and body sort through things. Sometimes a skilful counsellor will let you reason through the dark and shadowy times when all seems lost, and sometimes you will suddenly come around and wonder why did I travel that road? God bless.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Lorelei]

It amazes me that even Baptists have bought into the lie of psychology. Psychology has it's roots in atheistic theology. People who don't believe in God or who believe each one of us is God are the ones who have given us the "medicine for the mind."

Doctors can only cure what physically ails us. Doctors know a lot about the brain, but they know little about the mind.

Our moods, our actions, everything we do is effected by what we think. Our mind controls how we feel. That is why The Bible has addressed this issue and how we are to have the mind of Christ.

We are told that our mind is to be renewed.

Rom 12:2 Do not be conformed to this world, but be
transformed by the renewing of your mind

We are told not to be anxious, as if anxiety is an option, not a disease.

Phil 4:6
Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God.
NIV

We are instructed that we are not to worry, but trust in God. As if we have the choice.

Matt 6:34
34 Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.
NIV

We are told that with the spirit we are not a slave to fear.

Rom 8:15
5 For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, "Abba, Father.
NIV

We are told that peace comes from keeping our mind on things that are good.

Phil 4:8-9
8 Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable-if anything is excellent or praiseworthy-think about such things. 9 Whatever you have learned or received or heard from me, or seen in me-put it into practice. And the God of peace will be with you.
NIV

No one has offered me any support that these verses are only useful for people who are not suffering from the disease of depression. I don't buy that. I believe God's Word and I believe that if we treat our minds as He has instructed us we will not suffer from hopelessness and despair.

Emotions are responders to the mind. If I continually think sad thoughts, I will be sad. If I remember a traumatic even in my life, my emotions respond as if that event is still happening. If I think depressing thoughts, I will be depressed.

I can stop all of this by keeping my mind on Christ and off of myself. I believe what the Bible says.

Depression is said to be a chemical imbalance in the brain. Well the brain is physical, our mind is not. We have all heard stories where a traumatic experience can give someone an "adrenaline rush" and they can do superhuman tasks because of it. Well, in this event, the emotion caused the adrenaline rush, not the other way around. I am suggesting that it is the same with depression.

They say depression is caused by a chemical imbalance and I say that have not proven that is NOT the other way around.

I say again, if depression is a disease, and not an option why does the Bible seem to suggest that we have a choice in these matters? Why bother instructing us to keep our minds on the things of God for peace when it is physically impossible and the Spirit is incapable of overshadowing it?

In all these posts, in all of the false accusations, in the all of the name calling, not one person has offered to suggest why these verses are worthless to a depressed person. Why only medicine can do what the Bible says comes from God.

We are Baptists and supposed to be sola scriptura, yet no one wants to address the scriptures when it comes to depression. It might hurt someone's feelings so we leave the Bible out of it and send them to the secular world. I don't get it.

~Lorelei

 

[swaimj]

There seems to be much "talking past each other" on this thread. Some seem to be so sure that they know what others think that they are ignoring what they are actually saying. And I sense two extreme positions on depression. One says that it is a mental illness and the other says it is caused by sin (actually, no one has actually stated this position as their own view, but some have accused others of holding this).

The interesting thing is that one person who actually spoke of their own depression presented it as being neither. Neither a mental illness nor a result of sin. Read what Rick Sr. said on the first page closely:

I was also a depressed christian. Mine was caused by diabetes. This caused an imbalance in my brain, which in turn caused the depression.

In this case, depression was not caused by mental illness, rather it was a symptom of a different, but completely indentifiable physical problem; diabetes. The cure was not drugs to treat a disease or illness of the brain, but it was treatment of the physical condition. Because diabetes is not curable, but is treatable, the depression may recur in this person just as the diabetes can flare up again and cause problems.

At this point, there is value in having a personal relationship with Jesus Christ and thus a valid spritual dimension in treating the depression. If a person has a physical disease like diabetes which affects them emotionally, then yes, they need to treat the disease. But a person who has a physical disease which is incurable like diabetes also needs the hope which only faith in Jesus Christ provides. It is the knowledge that Jesus is with them even in the darkness of depression and it is knowledge that, one day, they will be healed of their disease. This faith and hope in Christ MAY actually serve to lift them out of their depression in a miraculous way that defies and goes beyond the ability of medical science.

In this way, in this particular case, medical science and Christianity work together to help the person in a way that neither could do alone. To call the depression a mental illness is to misdiagnose the problem. The depression is a symptom of the illness is diabetes, not a disease of the brain. At the same time, to say that the illness is a result of sin is wrong. It stems from a physical problem, not a spritual one. However, faith and hope in Christ is a real and necessary spiritual aid to treat the immaterial part of man which is being affected. And I must say that the Christian who rejects this aid and chooses to wallow in their depression rather than rely on Jesus is sinning.

I think this is a case in which we can demonstrate that medical science and Christian teaching can aid the whole man. However, it is important that we do not allow either of the two to misdiagnose a problem and thus try to say that the other is of no use in dealing with the problem.

 

[Jim1999]

Swaimj, indeed you have it on that point. I am afraid with a lot of people it is a case of rowing the boat with one oar; it goes round and round in circles and takes us nowhere.

Some think that we don't know the scriptures, and fail to understand the Lord, or that we are out of touch with that Lord. Well, let them think that way, but God help anyone who falls in their path for help. It just won't be there, and I wonder then who is in the greater sin.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Lorelei]

Originally posted by swaimj:
and the other says it is caused by sin (actually, no one has actually stated this position as their own view, but some have accused others of holding this).

Thank you for pointing this out! Thanks also for the kindness and gentleness with which you presented your entire post.

Originally posted by swaimj:
In this case, depression was not caused by mental illness, rather it was a symptom of a different, but completely indentifiable physical problem; diabetes.

Yes, however the initial thread did not say that 33% of pastors were suffering from depression caused by an identifiable disease.

It's almost like listening to the pro-abortionists proclaim, "what about rape and incest?" Those cases only account for a slight percentage of all abortions that are preformed, yet they play on that to make the other side seem unsympathetic. (I do not believe in abortion for any reason, just showing how the majority of people try to use the minority of cases to make their point.)

This thread wasn't dealing with physical ailments that caused depression. It merely stated that pastors (who in my opinion should be our conselors, not psychologists) were suffering from "depression." So what did the oppostion do, they brought up cases that were not relevant to the topic, and accused me of holding positions that I never held. Instead of asking for clarification, they have attacked, ridiculed and shouted false accusations at me.

I never accused anyone of not knowing the scriptures, but still no one has offered me any scriptural explanation as to why we are given instructions on how we should think, act and feel if a mental disease is the cause of why were aren't doing it correctly.

~Lorelei

 

[Terry_Herrington]

Lorelei,
I am sorry you feel the way you do about psychology. Psychology is no more satanic than is medicine. Just because psychology has been misused by some does not mean the entire science is worthless. Do not throw out the baby with the bathwater.

 

[Wisdom Seeker]

I beleive that God has allows the experience of depression for manifold reasons. To teach compassion, thankfulness for all the blessings, And to learn humility.

[ February 22, 2003, 12:28 PM: Message edited by: Laurenda ]

 

[Thankful]

Quote from Lorelei

In all these posts, in all of the false accusations, in the all of the name calling, not one person has offered to suggest why these verses are worthless to a depressed person. Why only medicine can do what the Bible says comes from God.

We are Baptists and supposed to be sola scriptura, yet no one wants to address the scriptures when it comes to depression. It might hurt someone's feelings so we leave the Bible out of it and send them to the secular world. I don't get it.

I see much jumping to conclusions as to what the other person is saying in this thread.

No one has said that the scriptures that you quoted are worthless to a depressed person. These scriptures are very important to all Christians. They are our hope and our assurance that God will take care of us.

I feel that the disagreements are brought about because God has given us additional avenues of help through doctors and medicine.

I cannot see how one can separate the two as it appears that some are trying to do.

Many times a person can get all the help they need from the scriptures, but then at times, they may need additional help from a doctor and from medicine.


There is nothing wrong with combining both.

I don't think anyone here would say that the scriptures are not important to a person with depression.

I don't think anyone is leaving the Bible out of treating depression.

Further, I don't think anyone is saying that a pill will cure all. It would be great if we had such a pill.

 

[Lorelei]

Originally posted by Thankful:
There is nothing wrong with combining both.

The only combination offered has been that God can use medicine. No one has offered scripture as an option at all, because to them depression is purely medical and given over to the medical community. Where is the scripture in this thread?

It's nice to say you are combining both, but I don't see the combination demonstrated in this thread.

~Lorelei

 

[Thankful]

Lorelei,

I have never been treated for depression so I do not have first hand knowledge. I just know that I rely on the scriptures, but I would seek medical advice if I thought that I needed it and I certainly have no problem with anyone who does.

The only combination offered has been that God can use medicine. No one has offered scripture as an option at all, because to them depression is purely medical and given over to the medical community. Where is the scripture in this thread?

I do not understand this statement.

Are you saying that others on this thread do not use scripture, but only medicine?

I really don't think anyone has said this.

Or...

Are you saying that there must be a scripture that says we can seek medical attention for depression?

I really think that it goes without saying that as Christians we rely upon God. We put our faith in him to take care of us. I cannot imagine going through some of the things in this life without our Lord's help.

You are absolutely correct that we must put our faith and trust in God.

 

[I Am Blessed 24]

I have been treated for depression. I used a combination of scriptures,pastoral counseling and medication to overcome it.

Could God have cured me without the medicine? Of course! Was it my lack of faith that He didn't? Of course NOT!

God can heal whichever way He chooses be it with medicine, psychology, pastoral counseling or scriptures.

I GIVE HIM ALL THE GLORY!!!

Sue

 

[Wisdom Seeker]

I think something that you aren't taking into account is that when a person is in a deeply depressed state they aren't in a position to help themselves. When a person wants to die, you can say anything to them and they won't hear it. It's like speaking to someone in a coma. Clinical depression is not someone having a bad day or feeling a little sad. It's a disconnection from reality. Where everything is grey and the air is heavy and hard to breath. There is no will to get through it. I don't think you understand how powerless this situation is. it is not the matter of choice. It is a matter of not being in control anymore because the brain isn't working the way it's supposed to.

Some scriptures that elude to the issue at hand:

"The spirit of a man will sustain his infirmity; but a wounded spirit who can bear?" Prov. 18:14

"The fining pot is for silver, and the furnace for gold: but the LORD trieth the hearts." Prov. 17:3

"If thou faint in the day of adversity, thy strength is small." Prov. 24:10



Here are some scriptures that give advise what Christians should do:

"Comfort the feebleminded, support the weak, be patient toward all men. See that none render evil for evil unto any man; but ever follow that which is good, both among yourselves, and to all men, Pray without ceasing. In every thing give thanks; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you. Quench not the spirit." I Thess 14-19


[ February 22, 2003, 12:31 PM: Message edited by: Laurenda ]

 

[Lorelei]

Originally posted by Laurenda:
I think something that you aren't taking into account is that when a person is in a deeply depressed state they aren't in a position to help themselves.

None of us can pull ourselves out of it, but God can.

I do appreciate your beatiful testimony and sharing some actual scriptures with us, but those scriptures point us to God for our ever present help in time of troubles.

Let's praise Him and look to Him for that help.

Heb 4:16
6 Let us then approach the throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need.
NIV

~Lorelei

 

[BrianT]

Originally posted by Lorelei:
None of us can pull ourselves out of it, but God can.

Why did God wait until I took medication to pull me out of it?

 

[Lorelei]

Thankful,

This is my point. What the medical profession tells us contradicts what the Bible says. Who do I believe and how can I combine them and use both?

Let me use Anxiety as an example, for I have experienced that in my life. Anxiety is often a part of depression.

The medical profession tells me anxiety is an illness. This means I can't help being anxious, there is a physical thing happening making me anxious.

The Bible tells us not to be anxious. How is this possible if those of us who experience anxiety do so because it is beyond our control?

And yes, I didn't just feel a little anxious about something, I had attacks that made me feel like I was about to experience death. I couldn't breath, my heart was out of wack and I couldn't control my mind it was realing beyond control. I know what I am talking about here and I know I was able to obey God's Word and NOT be anxious when I focused my thoughts and mind on Christ.

So I ask,do we trust what God says, or what the medical profession says? The two do NOT agree.

~Lorelei

 

[Sherrie]

~Lorelei

I only hope that someone who lurks here, realizes the things you say, are as a stiffnecked fool.

I will pray for you; that you never feel depressed, or reach a side of yourself you cannot control. And if you do; that the Lord will guide you through it.

Sherrie

 

[LadyEagle]

Swaimj, great post!

For what it's worth: A psychiatrist I once worked for told me that psychiatrists have the largest percentage of suicides of anyone in the medical profession. That was several years ago. Never looked it up to see if that is still so.

Also, there is a difference between psychiatrists and psychologists. Psychiatrists are Medical Doctors. Psychologists aren't. They may overlap in some treatment modalities, but psychiatrists mainly treat with medication. By doing studies on brains and with enhanced medical imaging through CT scans, MRAs, and MRIs, they are finding there are electrical impulse patterns and physical changes in human brains in people who have a chronic disorder such as major depression, schizophrenia, etc.

Not everything is a spiritual condition. Sometimes it is genetic or caused by disease.

Several people suffered depression in the Bible, too. Jonah for one. And who sat under the Juniper tree? Was it Elijah? Sometimes depression can be caused by anger turned inwards, anger at God, or anger at self, or anger at other people or anger at circumstances beyond our control.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[Chet]

Originally posted by Sherrie

~Lorelei
I only hope that someone who lurks here, realizes the things you say, are as a stiffnecked fool.

This really dumb statement is what caused me to want to post on this thread. First off, Lorelei is far from being a fool. In all of my reading on the BB, she is one of very few people who actually allows the Bible to be the final authority in all matters of life. And in this thread, she is not being taken captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ. (Col 2:8)

I got all anxious just reading this thread! But I am also encouraged too Lorelei, in your love and devotion to the truth of God's Word.

Depression: A psychiatric disorder characterized by an inability to concentrate, insomnia, loss of appetite, anhedonia, feelings of extreme sadness, guilt, helplessness and hopelessness, and thoughts of death. Also called clinical depression.

This is part of the problem. Cancer is testable, a broken bone, diabetes, flu, all these things are testable from a scientific perspective. When a person seeks "professional" help for their feeling of extreme sadness, guilt, helplessness, ect... there are no test. The chemical imbalance is a theory. It is a theory that has its roots in evolution. And even if there is such a thing as a chemical imbalance, this does not prove that its an illness, perhaps it means that what we think causes the chemical imbalance.

katie quoted some medical research that she is using to try to prove that depression is a disease like the disease of diabetes (which is often a result of poor diet anyway). The problem with that katie is it is not scriptural! I went to a seminar recently that focused on the myth of clinical depression from a medical standpoint. I can quote from secular research also but where will that get us? Stick with the Scripture.

People want to be told that there problem in a depressed state is not their fault. They don't want to consider the fact that it may be caused by a sin. Most of the time it is caused by the sin of selfishness. Paul discusses this in Philippines, the cure is to focus on others. Self-esteem is not biblical, and leads to a focus on self. The world's answer to this problem is to pop a Zoloft. No question the pill will make you happy, but does not fix the root of the problem. I can go down to the local bar and take a shot of whisky and it will give me the same affect.

Depression is not an illness. And it is most certainly not genetic. This is a problem with society today. If someone is suffering from "the baby blues" and decides to kill their five children, and is convinced that what they have is genetic, then they are just "sick". The bible says what they do is a sin. But how can we call it a sin if it is an illness? Depression is not an illness.

I don't know too many people who have not been seriously depressed. I went through a time in my life like that. But you know, I leaned on Christ even more and realized that He had the cure. What I set my mind on was false. And I stopped thinking about self.

Phil 4:1-9
Therefore, my brothers, you whom I love and long for, my joy and crown, that is how you should stand firm in the Lord, dear friends! I plead with Euodia and I plead with Syntyche to agree with each other in the Lord. Yes, and I ask you, loyal yokefellow, help these women who have contended at my side in the cause of the gospel, along with Clement and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the book of life. Rejoice in the Lord always. I will say it again: Rejoice! Let your gentleness be evident to all. The Lord is near. Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God. And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus. Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable-if anything is excellent or praiseworthy-think about such things. Whatever you have learned or received or heard from me, or seen in me-put it into practice. And the God of peace will be with you.
NV


Now I say this because if there are any lurkers out there, don't think Lorelei is a fool, but rather consider that the answer to life’s most difficult questions of despair is not found in a mind-altering drug but in Jesus Christ who cares for you.

 

[Angie Miller]

Hi everyone, as I have read the posts on the last four pages I have been saddened by a few.
I was diagnosed with Clinical Depression when I was 13. I went to see a Psycologist and my primary Doctor prescribed anti-depressants. My Mom would not give me the Medication, she was afraid it would have too many side effects. She was and is a Registered Nurse and I guess she saw too many adverse effects of the Medication. So know now, I do NOT blame her for what she did. That is what she saw fit and I know she took it too The Lord in prayer.
Anyway, there was nothing I could tell this Psycologist that would help me. I was in too dark of a place to open up to anybody, even my best friend. So I sank deeper & deeper into this black abyss that I don't even have the words for, and everyday was a battle to want to live. I was saved at age 8 and knew God was there holding me, I could feel HIM, and still do, but I was just so very far away.
I went down a most destructive path from 16-26. Self destructing, hoping somewhere along the path of destruction someone would kill me so I would not have to do it myself, although I tried several times.

Along the way my best friend was killed,I was abused by men, and turned to Alchol for my needs. BIG MISTAKE! Anyway after I had my first child, at 18 I went through a horrible depression and now what I know to be Panic Attacks. When I had my Son 6 years later I had NO depression or Panic Attacks. Strange to me because I was a single Mom working full time. But God blessed me with keeping me calm and capable at that point in my life.
When my Son was 2 I met the most wonderful man who has been my Husband for close to 7 years now. We had a Daughter and after I had her I suffered again from the Panic Attacks but not the Depression. They were so horrible! About a month before her 2nd Birthday I went into full Panic mode. I would just be sitting there and it felt like an electric shock went through my body and I just felt like I was going to explode and die. Well at this point in my life I sure did not want to die. Wow what a feeling that was. I was on many Meds from the time my Daughter was born and the Doctor was an idiot.He was rude and horrible and told me I was crazy. Nice guy! Anyway I went to the Emergency room in November of "99" feeling for sure I was going to die! Boy did I pray hard. Well after months of the CORRECT Medication and a WONDERFUL Therapist I got to the point of less depression and less Panic Attacks.I prayed for God to release me from their stronghold and for a long time HE felt it best not too. But I went back to church after 15 years and I plan to STAY this time.
Now I still suffer from Depression and from time to time I have a shrill of a Panic Attack. I praise GOD I went through the Panic Attacks because I went home to HIM. After all those years I wasted and did so wrong HE still wanted me and I will NEVER walk away again!
As for the Depression, well the bouts come less and do not last as long but it is still there. When I go through those times I try to keep my mind focoused on keeping Satan and his lies out of my head, and I seem to lean a lot more on God. Maybe it is a lesson for me from my Father or maybe it is just something I will have to deal with for the rest of my life, like someone would deal with Diabetes, a Handicap ect... But no matter what the case I still praise God for His love for me. He loves me no less or no more then any of His children because of this Illness. It is an Illness and one that can be treated. I am on 3 Medications and yes I do need them at this point in my life. Now some will say, and I prayed about this myself long and hard,that I do not trust God to take it away, NOT SO. I feel like God has sent me to Doctors who are guided by Him. I need the medicine and if I don't take it then I can not function in this society. Things as simple as a trip to the store can terrify me. So for those who do say I am not trusting God by taking this Medication do not know my heart. I love Him and I trust Him and He will NEVER lead me astray.
I am sorry this is so long but it is something I think needed to be said. I will NOT let this world tell me what condition my heart is in as far as my love for my Father. I want to be able to function everyday and work to glorify Him not be stricken down with Depression and Panic Attacks, therefore I will stay on my medication until God shows me different.
Thanks for listening,
Love in Christ Angie

 

[Angie Miller]

Oh yes and I forgot to tell you that my Son also suffers from Depression and ADHD. Also my Dad and my Mom's Brother have suffered from Panic Dissorder for over 25 years. My Dad's Sister is Manic Depressive. So I do see a Genetic link here.
Love in Christ, Angie