Depression

[Lorelei]

Chet,

Thanks so very much for the post! It is refreshing to find others who trust in God and the promises of His Word! All I can add is Amen!

This stiffnecked fool is not ashamed to admit that she believes this! I pray this for everyone here, with all sincerity and in love.

Rom 15:13

13 May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace as you trust in him, so that you may overflow with hope by the power of the Holy Spirit.
NIV

~Lorelei

[ February 19, 2003, 12:18 AM: Message edited by: Lorelei ]

 

[donnA]

Originally posted by Laurenda:
I think something that you aren't taking into account is that when a person is in a deeply depressed state they aren't in a position to help themselves. When a person wants to die, you can say anything to them and they won't hear it. It's like speaking to someone in a coma. Clinical depression is not someone having a bad day or feeling a little sad. It's a disconnection from reality. Where everything is grey and the air is heavy and hard to breath. There is no will to get through it. I don't think you understand how powerless this situation is. it is not the matter of choice. It is a matter of not being in control anymore because the brain isn't working the way it's supposed to.

I have repeatedly heard someone professing Christianity telling me that my condition was a "faith problem, not a medical problem", and "to rely on medicine is to not rely on God". Yet it is alright for a Christian to take medication for a simple headache or to take chemotherapy for Cancer. Is an illness only an illness if it has passed the test of agreement by the majority? Or is an illness an illness when it has been proven to be so by people in the medical field? When is it okay to get medical help for an illness? never? sometimes? always? When popular opinion says it's okay? Should someone rely on the medicines of man and not God? I rely on both. But it has not always been so. There was a time when I relied on neither and it was only by the grace of God that I did not throw away the gift of life.

Here are some scriptures that mean something to me in reagard to depression:

"The spirit of a man will sustain his infirmity; but a wounded spirit who can bear?" Prov. 18:14

"The fining pot is for silver, and the furnace for gold: but the LORD trieth the hearts." Prov. 17:3

"If thou faint in the day of adversity, thy strength is small." Prov. 24:10



Here are some scriptures that give advise what Christians should do:

"Comfort the feebleminded, support the weak, be patient toward all men. See that none render evil for evil unto any man; but ever follow that which is good, both among yourselves, and to all men, Pray without ceasing. In every thing give thanks; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you. Quench not the spirit." I Thess 14-19


This is a scripture that mirrors how I feel at the present, I have just come out the other side of the darkness of depression:
"My grace is sufficient for thee, for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in destresses for Christ's sake; for when I am weak then am I strong." 2 Corin. 12:9-10

Laurenda

Glad to see you. Please pm me.

 

[donnA]

Thanks so very much for the post! It is refreshing to find others who trust in the God and the promises of His Word! All I can add is Amen!

So far I haven't seen anyone say they didn't trust God. I also haven't seen anyone say they left scripture out. Your making things up it seems.
What you don't realize is that the depressed christian does try to seek God, knowing something is wrong, as with any illness, they seek Him, but as with any illness, medications have to be considered. I am sure you use medicines,and you give them in some form to your children. No one has said as you seem to think that they decided to leave God out.

 

[donnA]

We are Baptists and supposed to be sola scriptura, yet no one wants to address the scriptures when it comes to depression. It might hurt someone's feelings so we leave the Bible out of it and send them to the secular world. I don't get it.

I haven't seen this, several people have asked bible based questions of you and you refuse to use the bible.

 

[Wisdom Seeker]

Originally posted by Lorelei:

I do appreciate your beatiful testimony and sharing some actual scriptures with us, but those scriptures point us to God for our ever present help in time of troubles.

I think I am now more confused. What were you looking for when you asked for scriptures? Of course scripture would point to God. I don't think I know what it was that you were looking for when you asked for scripture. Please explain. I have read this thread, and I want to participate in it. Thanks.

Laurenda

 

[Lorelei]

Laurenda,

I believe that the Bible promises us peace, joy, love, comfort, rest and hope. These are not things that are optional. If we have the Spirit of Christ, we have these things. We have the option of chosing whether or not to let them shine through, but they are there, they are part of the deal.

People here seem not to believe this. They say they believe in the promise but say there is a medical condition that can overpower the spirit within us and some are incapable of feeling any thing other than hopelessness, depair, anxiety and worry.

They say they believe the Bible, but in their arguements against me they offer no verses from it. They say they believe in both, but they only talk about the medical side. They do that because they know the Bible says it is possible to have peace through God, they can't disprove it. The problem is that they want to believe the medical profession. I can understand the thought process that surely all those people know what they are talking about. But the fact is, many wise and educated men will tell you there is no God either. They offer no proof for either, it is just more convenient to believe the one over the other.

If they say they believe the Bible, then let them use that to prove their point. The only evidence they have offered is to tell me there are people in the Bible who have been depressed. I never said depression didn't effect everyone, what I said was God is the only answer to curing that depression. No one ever offered me one verse to show me that God didn't help them out of it.

God is the only cure for depression. If someone wants to prove otherwise they need to show me in the Bible, not in medical journals. Spiritual things can not be disected and proven in any journel of medicine.

~Lorelei

 

[Wisdom Seeker]

Well, Okay I think I understand the point you were trying to make now.

Very tricky asking people to find scriprtures to back up the presuposition that God isn't necessary to treat an illness.

Sometimes God answers prayer by not so much waving his hand and magically making something disappear as if it had never existed, but sometimes by putting a doctor with medicine in an ill person's path. Reminds me of the life boat joke.

 

[Lorelei]

Laurenda,

I only asked for scripture because they were professing to say that they were using it in their belief. I only asked them to show me what they were "professing" to have done.

If you are ill, then God can use a doctor. Depression is not a disease. It is a condition of the mind and the Bible clearly tells us how to control our minds to receive the blessings he has promised.

As Chet pointed out. If you were ill, they should have preformed a medical test to come up with your diagnosis. Many people have compared depression to diabetes, but insulin levels are tested before giving the medication. They say depression is caused by a chemical imbalance, but my mother who has recently been put on Paxil had no test to determine if her levels were out of wack or not.

Even if they are, as I have mentioned, the emotion is causing the imbalance, it's not the other way around.

Fix the problem instead of merely controlling the symptom. God can fix it, medicine only hides the symptoms.

~Lorelei

 

[Wisdom Seeker]

I understand that you don't think that depression is a disease because of the newness to the medical tests to determine seratonin levels and neorotransmitter abnormalities. But such tests do exist. It is just not common practice to make each person who fits some of the criteria for the reactions attributed to mental illness to undergo these when answering tests and observing behaviour have proven useful and less evasive.

I think your last post may be leaning a little bit towards the "It's just in your head" way of thinking. And I would have to disagree with that assertion. Respectfully.

Laurenda

[ February 22, 2003, 12:35 PM: Message edited by: Laurenda ]

 

[Doubting Thomas]

As a family physician who treats depressed patients, allow me to add my two cents:

Depression IS a medical illness, and certain medicines have been proven to help. I see this everyday. That is not to say that there is not a spiritual or psychological component to the depressed state. However, since there is a neurochemical problem involved, this often needs to be corrected before one can "think" himself/herself better. Ultimately, I have to agree that there are underlying spiritual issues that need to be addressed in depressed patients, but these are variable.

Just because we don't routinely run "tests" (eg, blood work) to diagnosis depression, doesn't mean there is not a physical problem. A large percentage of medical diagnoses are based on the clinical presentation--history and physical--and not on some a lab value. It's the clinical criteria that often (but, of course, not always)clinches the diagnosis.

 

[Jim1999]

As a pastor, who has also experienced the effects of diabetes and strokes and depression, I will use all means to offer assistance to those parishioners seeking assistance.

There are some I hope never fall ill to diabetes and the unexplained mood swings. I say unexplained because even medical science cannot explain them. They think there is a chemical imbalance, but when one's blood sugars are correct and blood pressure is ok and still they go through these hard times, the medical profession has no answer. They do happen.

To some, the simple answer is not enough faith. The person is not claiming the scriptures of trust. To these we offer no answers because no answer will ever suffice.

I have all kinds of faith, and I certainly know the scriptures, but nothing helped when I tried to remember the simple things, but couldn't. Nothing helped when I tried to speak, but words wouldn't come. I stumbled and fell to the ground as many as three times each day. Quoting "have faith" did nothing to lift me up. This is the claim made by all the so-called faith healers.....If only you had enough faith. My faith will see me through many trials and tribulations. It will see me through life and it will lift me into God's kingdom.

When a parishioner comes to me in a depressed state, the last thing they need is a bigger burden to carry. They need some relief, and neither drugs nor counsel will heal that. They need an understanding counsellor. One who will appreciate the reality of their estate. Ultimately, some things can be directly the result of a faith deficiency, but that will come out in time. This is what psychology does,,,,,it provides that time and that understanding....that temporary psychological crutch. I praise God that throughout my ministry, I tried to be available for these people with a pastor's heart. When I had my strokes, It only taught me to understand them better.

If you want to point a finger and challenge my faith, that is your prerogative, but God knows, and so do the people to whom I have ministered all these years. The book has always been open in my house, my office and in my heart. It remains so.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Lorelei]

Originally posted by Doubting Thomas:
Depression IS a medical illness, and certain medicines have been proven to help. I see this everyday.

So the promise of peace from God is only available today in this century now that we have medication? Yes or no?

Originally posted by Doubting Thomas:

That is not to say that there is not a spiritual or psychological component to the depressed state. However, since there is a neurochemical problem involved, this often needs to be corrected before one can "think" himself/herself better.

I still say this is backwards treatment and simply allows the person to avoid the cause of the depression.

If I get mad, my heart beats faster. The physical thing that happened was because of my anger, my emotion. My emotion causes the physical, it's not the other way around. My heart will in turn stop beating fast when I calm down. I have to stop being angry to fix the problem. You can give me a medication to slow it down, but whatever is angering me is the REAL problem.

Originally posted by Doubting Thomas:

Ultimately, I have to agree that there are underlying spiritual issues that need to be addressed in depressed patients, but these are variable.

Is God just a variable?

This is proof right here from the medical profession. They place our physical well being before our spiritual well being. What should was as christians be more concerned with?

I say again, fix the spiritual and the rest will follow because God promised us peace.

Originally posted by Doubting Thomas:
Just because we don't routinely run "tests" (eg, blood work) to diagnosis depression, doesn't mean there is not a physical problem. A large percentage of medical diagnoses are based on the clinical presentation--history and physical--and not on some a lab value. It's the clinical criteria that often (but, of course, not always)clinches the diagnosis.

You don't routinely run tests, how often have you run them?

~Lorelei

 

[Lorelei]

Jim,

I am not saying to simply say "have faith" then send them on their way. A counselor should take the time to find out what is causing the depression and then slowly and lovingly show them how God can get them through it.

Ultimately that is the answer, God and God alone. It may sound mean but the Bible SAYS it is true. Is it wrong to say what the Bible teaches? Is it wrong to stand up for God's love and ultimate power?

We can't fix people's thoughts and emotions, that is God's place not man's.

For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's
spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God
except the Spirit of God. We have not received the spirit of the world but
the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has
freely given us. (1Cor. 2:11-12)

The love of God surpasses knowledge.

Eph 3:17-19
And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, 18 may have power, together with all the saints, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ, 19 and to know this love that surpasses knowledge-that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God.
NIV

The peace of God surpasses human understanding.

Phil 4:7
7 And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.
NIV

Why is it so mean for me to share this?

~Lorelei

 

[Wisdom Seeker]

Talk about twisting words. That is not what he said at all.

When you get a headache, do you get lab work done to prove that your not imagining it? Come on. Let's be realistic about that.

I have the utmost respect for people with variing viewpoints when they are open.

 

[Lorelei]

Lauranda,

Does God promise me my head won't hurt?

~Lorelei

 

[Molly]

My question about this topic is what is bipolar disease/depression and how do certain situations trigger it,if it is clearly an imbablnce in the brain...I would think circumstances would not have any effect on it...maybe stress can play a part,I don't know....another thing,Paul endured many hardships and he still said to rejoice....I think no matter what situation we are in,wether we come from an abusive family,are in a bad marriage,have illnesses,or whatever our road to travel is,we are to rejoice in these trials in obedience to Christ. I think people get all caught up in themselves and then these problem occur. So,I don't think it is necessarily rooted in sin,but in not understanding God's word and what our thought life should be like.

 

[Wisdom Seeker]

Lorelei -

If you have a headache is it because your faith isn't strong?

Laurenda

 

[Wisdom Seeker]

Molly, if you use your search engine and look up Bi-Polar disorder you will get the answers you said that you don't have.

Originally posted by Molly: I think people get all caught up in themselves and then these problem occur.

Sure, that must be it.

 

[Molly]

I will answer that from my own persepctive...God never promised we would not have headaches or anything else...he is more concenred with how we handle it...our character that is rooted in His word. We are to rejoice in ALL things,not just somethings.

It all comes down to our thouight life...do we think on the things that are right,or do we dwell on what is wrong in our life...do we seek to have the mind of Christ,or do we wallow in our own problems....

 

[Thankful]

Sometimes, I imagine God shaking His head and saying, I love these people, I give them promises, I give them doctors, I give them medicine, why can't they accept both as My will?

Why do they limit their thinking and understanding?


I appreciate a Christian physician and pastor commenting on this very important problem.