PastorSBC1303
Active Member
I could not agree more!
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Depression
- Thread starter Mark Osgatharp
- Start date
Gold Dragon
Well-Known Member
I believe that physical problems can also be spiritual problems. Our Almighty God CAN heal both and we can most definitely pray for both. Our prayers do not heal either, God heals both in his grace.
Prayer does not only address spiritual concerns and should not be considered a "magic bullet" for any disease. But yes, in all things we should trust in God and pray to him. Does that mean we don't take medication for problems that also have physical reasons? Of course not.
Charles Meadows
New Member
First of all we must realize that this can be a touchy subject for many.
I will agree that not everyone diagnosed with a "mental illness" has a discrete neurologic problem, although so definitely do.
In many cases a person who has a poor self esteem, poor social support, poor financial status, poor family relationships, and an absent spiritual life present with "depression". In truth there may be nothing wrong with these people other than a bad situation and a lack of God. In truth this does typify a large percent of those labelled with mental illness.
But without a doubt there are those who have real abnormalities in neurobiology and absolutely require medication as a PART of their treatment.
My objection to many of the nouthetic arguments against "mental illness" is that they seem to throw out the baby with the bath water. Yes not everyone on antidepressants has a true neurologic illness - but that far from proves that mental illness does not exist.
Mark said that God will give peace that passeth all understanding. True enough. We can always have Christian joy in the face of hardship - but that verse does not mean that God simply zaps away and feelings of sadness any more than He completely zaps away physical pain for those who suffer and pray for strength.
There are many who do not have any scientific of medical knowledge about this subject but yet claim authoritatively that mental illness can not exist. It with those with whom I have a problem.
I will agree that not everyone diagnosed with a "mental illness" has a discrete neurologic problem, although so definitely do.
In many cases a person who has a poor self esteem, poor social support, poor financial status, poor family relationships, and an absent spiritual life present with "depression". In truth there may be nothing wrong with these people other than a bad situation and a lack of God. In truth this does typify a large percent of those labelled with mental illness.
But without a doubt there are those who have real abnormalities in neurobiology and absolutely require medication as a PART of their treatment.
My objection to many of the nouthetic arguments against "mental illness" is that they seem to throw out the baby with the bath water. Yes not everyone on antidepressants has a true neurologic illness - but that far from proves that mental illness does not exist.
Mark said that God will give peace that passeth all understanding. True enough. We can always have Christian joy in the face of hardship - but that verse does not mean that God simply zaps away and feelings of sadness any more than He completely zaps away physical pain for those who suffer and pray for strength.
There are many who do not have any scientific of medical knowledge about this subject but yet claim authoritatively that mental illness can not exist. It with those with whom I have a problem.
Mark Osgatharp
New Member
JS,
I said I wasn't going to say anything else, but I just can't let this pass. I have experienced real depression - I'm not just talking about being sad or blue for a time. I'm talking about violent, horrifing agitation of mind and blackness of soul - so bad that I at first thought I was going totally nuts. It was a depression that was totally uncontrolable and lasted for two or three years.
Anyone who tells me I don't know that depression is just doesn't know what they are talking about. If I had gone to a doctor and told him every thing I experienced he would have diagnosed me with clinical depression and immediately put me on medication.
But I didn't go to a doctor nor a psychologist. I didn't take any medicine other than taking Nyquil to be able to sleep, and not much of that.
So those who say it is impossible to overcome depression without the aid of medicine are simply wrong. Dead wrong. All of that not withstanding, I'm not even opposed to people taking medicine to relieve the pain of their depression.
What I am opposed to people saying that there are exceptions to God's promise to give the peace that passes all understanding to those who love, trust, and obey him. And since the medications and dogmas that are used to "treat" depression today were unknown in Paul's day, they cannot possibly be an integral part of the solution.
Mark Osgatharp
jshurley04
New Member
Since they were unknown due to their lack of knowledge and understanding, it usually resulted in acusation of demon possession (which is still a real problem) and or lack of faith. Just because Paul did not know all things about the tribulation period does not mean that it will not happen. I believe that your line of belief does more damage than good to fellow believers that need medical help. Because once the medical is handled and the body's ability to care for itself is restored, that is when spiritual counseling to find and remove the root of the problem. When you deal with people, the physical will always impact the spiritual. Get the physical undercontrol so that the spiritual can be dealt with.
Mark, Praise the Lord that he choose to heal you from your depression!! I would ask you not to accuse those who God has not yet chosen to heal of being less spiritual than you because they still suffer from their mental disorders.
I believe we are all three dimensional people, body, mind and spirit. None of use are 100% healthy in all three areas. Some are healthier than others physically, some are healthier than others mentally and some are healthier than others spiritually, but we all have to work to maintain our health in all three areas.
For the last 50+ years we have been filling our bodies so full of junk food and chemicals that it has affected both our physical and mental health, it sometimes takes a treatment program including supplements or medicine to reverse the effects and fix the chemical imbalance that can cause clinical depression and other mental illnesses.
I believe prayer, diet, exercise, supplements and sometimes even medication are all required for a balanced mental health treatment. Without this balanced treatment even the simplest things like prayer seem very overwhelming to those who suffer from these various mental illnesses.
I believe we are all three dimensional people, body, mind and spirit. None of use are 100% healthy in all three areas. Some are healthier than others physically, some are healthier than others mentally and some are healthier than others spiritually, but we all have to work to maintain our health in all three areas.
For the last 50+ years we have been filling our bodies so full of junk food and chemicals that it has affected both our physical and mental health, it sometimes takes a treatment program including supplements or medicine to reverse the effects and fix the chemical imbalance that can cause clinical depression and other mental illnesses.
I believe prayer, diet, exercise, supplements and sometimes even medication are all required for a balanced mental health treatment. Without this balanced treatment even the simplest things like prayer seem very overwhelming to those who suffer from these various mental illnesses.
O
OCC
Guest
JS,
I said I wasn't going to say anything else, but I just can't let this pass. I have experienced real depression - I'm not just talking about being sad or blue for a time. I'm talking about violent, horrifing agitation of mind and blackness of soul - so bad that I at first thought I was going totally nuts. It was a depression that was totally uncontrolable and lasted for two or three years.
Anyone who tells me I don't know that depression is just doesn't know what they are talking about. If I had gone to a doctor and told him every thing I experienced he would have diagnosed me with clinical depression and immediately put me on medication.
But I didn't go to a doctor nor a psychologist. I didn't take any medicine other than taking Nyquil to be able to sleep, and not much of that.
So those who say it is impossible to overcome depression without the aid of medicine are simply wrong. Dead wrong. All of that not withstanding, I'm not even opposed to people taking medicine to relieve the pain of their depression.
What I am opposed to people saying that there are exceptions to God's promise to give the peace that passes all understanding to those who love, trust, and obey him. And since the medications and dogmas that are used to "treat" depression today were unknown in Paul's day, they cannot possibly be an integral part of the solution.
Mark Osgatharp </font>[/QUOTE]So it took a couple of years to be healed of this depression? And you used Nyquil to sleep? (We need a scratching chin graemlin)
Mark Osgatharp
New Member
The unbelief, ignorance, and misrepresentations here are staggering - simply staggering.
Mark Osgatharp
Mark Osgatharp
Bible Believing Bill
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Mark,
I am so glad that God Blessed you by healing your mind. In reading your post I can see that you do understand what a mental illness can do to a person.
Now everyone else. Lets keep in mind that God answers our prayers in three different ways. He can say Yes, No, or Later. Just because we don't immediately get what we ask for doesn't mean our prayer wasn't answered. It just means God has a different plan for us.
I am going to share more of my families storey here than I have shared in public before.
About 11 years ago Jeanne (my wife) was diagnosed with Bipolar Disorder. A person who suffers from Bipolar Disorder has both times of depression and times of mania. Depression most of us are familiar with, so let me tell you a little of mania. When a person is manic they are on a high, they will take risks they normally wouldn't take such as sexual promiscuity, drugs, or drink(Thank God Jeanne had the peace of God to not take those kinds of risks) , they will spend money they don't have, they will stay awake for days at a time, they will take on a project and work on it 24 hours a day, they will have trouble concentrating on one task because they have already jumped ahead the the next, they may hallucinate, manic episodes can become psychotic episodes . In short a manic person is what most of us would classify as crazy.
Jeanne took medication for a short time, she prayed and was better for a number of years. Then about 2 1/2 years ago she had to be hospitalized in the psychiatric unit. Even at this time God granted her some peace. He may not have healed her, but he gave her peace enough to tell me what was going on and to ask for the help she needed. She hated the time in the hospital (so much so that she said she never wanted to go back there), but since then she has been on medication, seeing her Doctor and therapist on a regular basis, and has prayed for healing a lot. She is by no means cured, but she is a much stronger and more stable person than she was 2 1/2 years ago.
Last November Jeanne's mother died and she had a very hard time dealing with the holidays. On Christmas Day Jeanne told me she needed to go back to the hospital. Taking her there was one of the hardest things I have ever had to do. I knew she needed the help, but it was Christmas Day. God granted her the peace to go to someplace she didn't want to go, and he granted me the peace to take her.
The way I see it even though God has said No or Later to our prayers for her to be healed he has answered YES to our prayers for peace that surpasses all understanding.
I am sure God wants something good to come out of Jeanne's illness. I don't know what that is, and I may never understand it. I know that Jeanne is not suffering in vain, her pain will somehow bring Glory to God.
Bill
I am so glad that God Blessed you by healing your mind. In reading your post I can see that you do understand what a mental illness can do to a person.
Now everyone else. Lets keep in mind that God answers our prayers in three different ways. He can say Yes, No, or Later. Just because we don't immediately get what we ask for doesn't mean our prayer wasn't answered. It just means God has a different plan for us.
I am going to share more of my families storey here than I have shared in public before.
About 11 years ago Jeanne (my wife) was diagnosed with Bipolar Disorder. A person who suffers from Bipolar Disorder has both times of depression and times of mania. Depression most of us are familiar with, so let me tell you a little of mania. When a person is manic they are on a high, they will take risks they normally wouldn't take such as sexual promiscuity, drugs, or drink(Thank God Jeanne had the peace of God to not take those kinds of risks) , they will spend money they don't have, they will stay awake for days at a time, they will take on a project and work on it 24 hours a day, they will have trouble concentrating on one task because they have already jumped ahead the the next, they may hallucinate, manic episodes can become psychotic episodes . In short a manic person is what most of us would classify as crazy.
Jeanne took medication for a short time, she prayed and was better for a number of years. Then about 2 1/2 years ago she had to be hospitalized in the psychiatric unit. Even at this time God granted her some peace. He may not have healed her, but he gave her peace enough to tell me what was going on and to ask for the help she needed. She hated the time in the hospital (so much so that she said she never wanted to go back there), but since then she has been on medication, seeing her Doctor and therapist on a regular basis, and has prayed for healing a lot. She is by no means cured, but she is a much stronger and more stable person than she was 2 1/2 years ago.
Last November Jeanne's mother died and she had a very hard time dealing with the holidays. On Christmas Day Jeanne told me she needed to go back to the hospital. Taking her there was one of the hardest things I have ever had to do. I knew she needed the help, but it was Christmas Day. God granted her the peace to go to someplace she didn't want to go, and he granted me the peace to take her.
The way I see it even though God has said No or Later to our prayers for her to be healed he has answered YES to our prayers for peace that surpasses all understanding.
I am sure God wants something good to come out of Jeanne's illness. I don't know what that is, and I may never understand it. I know that Jeanne is not suffering in vain, her pain will somehow bring Glory to God.
Bill
I went back and read my post and didn't find any unbelief, ignorance, or misrepresentations. To be ignorant is to be uneducated on an issue, being married to a wife who suffers from bipolar disorder I am not uneducated on the issue of mental illness.
You seem to be painting all with one big brush based on your personal experiences, that is both ignorant and dangerous. I would encourage you to be less quick to judge and take more time to understand that not every situation is like your personal situation.
Ah, so Marks' rules are for some people and not others, like him for instance.
Apparently Mark does not believe God is responsable for medicines that save lives, and God is not responsable for doctors who can take care of people. What about Luke being a doctor, never once was he condemned, nor told not to continiue being a doctor.
Mark's God is in a box, knocking wanting out.
Does this mean I shouldn't get treated if I have a heart attack, Mark? God's going to keep my heart and my mind right????
It would be nice to take that verse so very literally, that so long as I kept my thoughts on the Lord, that my heart would keep right on beating with no problems. It just doesn't work that way.
Just like you can have a heart attack, you can have a brain attack. It might be a stroke, a chemical problem or simply an injury that clouds the thoughts. Illness of any kind doesn't take away the blessed hope of this passage. That Hope is not constant happiness. That Hope is that we will be pleasing to God if we keep our thoughts on Him. That some day we will learn to be content in spite of our frail bodies and our circumstances. And that we will be kept until that day when we meet out Lord face to face. </font>[/QUOTE]Thats very good MK, strokes are in the brain, I had a friend who died from a sudden hemmorage in the brain, and what about people with brain tumors, or cancer? Mark says these people should not get medical treatment. I bet if it were his wofe or kid they'd ahve medical treatment, all the while the rest of us are demon possessed.
I wonder if this verse is actually talking not about the brain but the 'mind', our though process, we can not control what happens in our brain, but we can control what happens in our 'mind' thoughts. Otherwise people would not have strokes, tumors, or cancer if they could control what happens in the brain.
Two completely different things.
Likewise, depression is a chemical imballance, a problem in the brain, a malfunction in the brain, just like stroke and cancer are a malfunction in the brain.
Selfrighteousness is an ugly thing.
Two completely different things.
Likewise, depression is a chemical imballance, a problem in the brain, a malfunction in the brain, just like stroke and cancer are a malfunction in the brain.
Selfrighteousness is an ugly thing.
Mark Osgatharp
New Member
The lies, misrepresentation and ignorance continue this morning.
Mark Osgatharp
Mark Osgatharp
Gold Dragon
Well-Known Member
It is a pretty normal human behaviour to normalize our own experiences.
Mark Osgatharp
New Member
If some of you are suffering depression right now it is no wonder, considering how willfully you lie about other people. You accused me of saying all sorts of things I never said and of not responding to your posts when I did.
Treating other people like that, on top of ignoring what the Bible actually says, you ought to be depressed!
Mark Osgatharp
Treating other people like that, on top of ignoring what the Bible actually says, you ought to be depressed!
Mark Osgatharp
Mark Osgatharp
New Member
If some of you are suffering depression right now it is no wonder, considering how willfully you lie about other people. You accused me of saying all sorts of things I never said and of not responding to your posts when I did.
Treating other people like that, on top of ignoring what the Bible actually says, you ought to be depressed!
Mark Osgatharp
Treating other people like that, on top of ignoring what the Bible actually says, you ought to be depressed!
Mark Osgatharp