desent from burning springs

[elder_jeffery_endicott]

This is my first post. Read alot after surfing into the forum and decided to join.
I was wondering about the complete decent from burning springs if it is actually possible. I know some but would like to be able to get the rest of the pieces so I could get the complete picture. I know that north district armed off burning springs in 1813. Then in 1825 burning springs armed off new salem. And then new salem armed off union and northern new salem and others. then burning springs armed off paint union in 1837. Paint union then armed off zion in 1848. Paint union also had several splits. Zion armed off bethlemham in 1871, new zion in 1903 and tri-state zion split off in 1940. Tri-state zion had a split this year 2009. After the zion tri-state zion split zion became old zion. Bethlemham has had several splits. Which has brought about bethlemham, old bethleham, union bethleham, calvery and mt sion. this is pretty much the extent of my knowledge of how these groups fit together. Any additional information would be apprieciated. Thanks for your help

 

[Bethelassoc]

Hello Bro. Jeff,


Glad to see you made it to the board! About your question, you will probably find other members on here with better knowledge on Burning Springs than myself but I would first have to say that Rufus Perrigan's History of the Regular Baptist would be a good start.

I'll have to find my copy of it, and get back with you. Good seeing you on here.

David White

 

[Tom Butler]

Welcome from me, too.

Be sure to go up to the top of the menu to "Welcome to the Baptist Board" and post a little bit about yourself so we can get to know you better. Include all the juicy details you'd care to.

I learned something new from your post. Several times you used the expression "armed off," which I'd never heard before. I'm assuming it is sort of like "sprang from."

Is that about right? If not, feel free to set us straight.

 

[elder_jeffery_endicott]

yes from they way I understand it armed off is a term that is used when one association divides its territory and creates a new association. This division is peaceful and usually comes about because the association was is getting too large to handle effectivly.

 

[Tom Butler]

yes from they way I understand it armed off is a term that is used when one association divides its territory and creates a new association. This division is peaceful and usually comes about because the association was is getting too large to handle effectivly.

Thanks for the explanation.

 

[Bethelassoc]

Perrigan's History of Regular Baptist

pg 35 of his book, he states, "Paint Union gave off Zion in 1848 and Blaine Union in 1890....Zion gave off Bethlehem about 1870. Blaine Union gave off Iron Hill, 1904...New Hope came from paint Union in 1920."

Is this the part you were wanting more on?

David

 

[elder_jeffery_endicott]

Yes, thanks. This was important piecies of the puzzel that I had no idea where they fit into place.

 

[Bethelassoc]

Bro Jeff,

My hope someday is to work on the "bloodlines" of the various United Baptist associations. Paint Union has been a great mother to many of the associations in KY, as Bethel has been here in MO. But, of course, they aren't the only ones that have gave an arm off to other associations.

I would like to make a family tree to show where all the current associations come from, so that it may make sense to how they got where they are and what similar influences they have when compared to others.

David

 

[Bethelassoc]

Also, Paint Union gave off Mt. Zion in 1869.

South Kentucky Association, being the originator of most KY associations (along with Elkhorn) started in May 1788 as Separate Baptists before entering the General Union and splitting into two districts.

I would like to see how much Elkhorn influenced the United Baptist associations of today. Would be nice to have some United Baptists working on the history of the United Baptists, huh? :thumbs:

David

 

[old regular]

The Perrigan History ,Has some good things in it,but it is not always accurate, it is very biased at times. Elder Banner Manns wanted them to turn the project of the History over to one of the Colleges but the Brothers didn't carefor that approach, you will note that very old Regular Baptist Associations have been left out like the Mountain, the history of the divides is not always according to the facts, an example would be the Divide in the Sandlick Church it says the hardshell side sued the softshell side for the building but court records state it was the other way around.Bro.Mike

 

[old regular]

There at this time two Burning Spring Associations both use the name Regular Primitive Bro.Mike

 

[Bethelassoc]

The Perrigan History ,Has some good things in it,but it is not always accurate, it is very biased at times. Elder Banner Manns wanted them to turn the project of the History over to one of the Colleges but the Brothers didn't carefor that approach, you will note that very old Regular Baptist Associations have been left out like the Mountain, the history of the divides is not always according to the facts, an example would be the Divide in the Sandlick Church it says the hardshell side sued the softshell side for the building but court records state it was the other way around.Bro.Mike

I guess that's one of the problems with historical writings; they tend to be biased, especially when the writer has a very particular slant. I've seen it frequently when it comes to the history of United Baptists. Most writers say very little (leaving out important information) while others act like there was no name change when the VA and KY unions took place. I've seen it come from Southern Baptist writings and in some Primitive Baptist work.

I take it then Perrigan was a "softshell" to say something like that about Sandlick church situation.

David

 

[old regular]

No Brother Rufus ended up on the Bethel Side of the Union split, he was fed his information by others often printing the same info twice,the book was not done the way some of the old brothers wanted, they wanted the truth.What they ended up with was some truth and some half truths ,some history total reversed to favor one side over the other if you studied it you will see that they tried to present the other sides view but it was a limitted approach.Elder Elmer Church and I were very good friends but he said they wanted to make a history like Hassells but they to many people involved to do it right but we are fournate to have what we have .Dorgan's book also was slanted to the more doctrinal liberals in Old Regular not one of the old line brothers really got to state their position. Bro.Mike

 

[old regular]

History of the Oldtime Baptist list many associations throughout the U.S The author is Elder Wesley Yontz Burning Springs is listed with a small sketch along with other old baptist associations. Elder Slone

 

[Bethelassoc]

Bro Mike,

I would think that it would help then to have several contributers to a writing of such a vast amount of information. That way the writing can maybe come out as fair as it needs to.

I haven't read anything from Dorgan. I know his writings get used some in other historical books that I've seen. I would like to check out Yontz's book, I recall reading his name in some sort of university library or some sort of archive?

As for Burning Springs, what was the reason for the two associations and is Elder Jerry Brown still involved with them?

David

 

[old regular]

,I am not sure why there are two associations, one , the Jerry Brown side is in correspondence with the Mate's Creek Group and most of the Regular Primitives, the other side at one time was in correspondence with Thorton Union and last that I knew Mt.Zion United Baptist Association [the large side] .History of the Old time Baptist in America also has some mistakes but they are just that mistakes.The history of the Regular Baptist calls the other side names etc... not. brotherly kindness.It almost makes the Union, New Salem right in everything, and this is not so, mistakes were made on all sides, mistakes that have never been corrected,to the cost of the Old School Baptist every where.Elder Slone

 

[elder_jeffery_endicott]

I know this is a very old thread, but I am the original poster but I have gained much more information, even though I am a very far way from the complete picture. Here is what I have currently anyone that knows more please fill in gaps make additions, corrections.
1813 Burning Springs armed from the North District
Burning Springs
1825 armed New Salem
1837 armed Paint Union
Paint Union
1848 armed Zion
1869 armed Mt. Zion
1890 armed Blaine Union
1920 armed New Hope
1978 split Old Paint Union
1987 split Union dissolved
late 1990s 13 churches left and mainly stayed independent
current status 29 churches corresponds with Tri-State Zion and in talks with Old Ziion
(Old) Zion
1871 armed Bethlehem
1902 armed New Zion
1920 armed Olive dissolved 1939?
1940 split Tri-State Zion
current status 21 churches corresponds with Old Bethlehem and in talks with Paint Union and Tri-State Zion
Mt. Zion
1978 split Old Mt. Zion dissolved? 2012?
Blaine Union
1938 -1939 split Blaine Union (J.T. Bailey side)
1904 armed Iron Hill
New Hope
(1941-1942) split New Hope called Clear Creak
2000 split New Hope (Elbert Howard side)
(2007- 2011) split New Hope (Theodore Evans side)
2008 split Original New Hope (Albert King side) current status 3 churches
(2008-2009) split New Hope (Reuben Lycans side) went into Old Indian Bottom Old Regular Baptist

It is getting late and I will finish this latter

 

[rlvaughn]

Elder Endicott, thanks for sharing this information as you are sorting out some of this history. Would you clarify whether all the associations listed above call themselves Old Regular or not? Thanks!

 

[elder_jeffery_endicott]

continuing with the outline
Old Paint Union
(1998-2004) Original Old Paint Union #1 (Boyd Medows side)
(2002-207) Original Old Paint Union #2 (Denver Caudill side) Brother Caudill is now listed in the Paint Union minutes so I speculate this group rejoined Paint Union
Bethlehem
1906 split Old Bethlehem current status 7 churches corresponds with Old Zion possible talks with Paint Union and Tri-State Zion
split unknown date Bethlehem (Tom Vance side) current status 3 churches
split unknown date Bethlehem (Nelson/Moore side)
(1949-1952) Bethlehem reunited with Bethlehem
1989 split Union Bethlehem
split unknown date several churches joined New Salem (ORB) for one year and was then armed as Kyohva (ORB)
Tri-State Zion
split unknown date Old Tri-State Zion
2010 split Zion Tri-State
Iron Hill (Big)
(1931-1989) split Iron Hill (little)
split unknown date Philadelphia (ORB)
Old Bethlehem
1989 Calvary
Calvary
1996 Mt. Sion