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[BobRyan]

Originally posted by rc:
If you think about what the passage is saying for a bit and put aside your preconceived notions, I think you will see it pretty easily.

That's the problem here isn't it?

Good luck on understanding Rom 8:30 if there isn't a difference between and effectual call and an outward call (non effectual)...

The call of God is "always effectual" if it is defined as that "DRAWING of all mankind to God" John 12:32 for it always will convict of sin and it always will ENABLE the choice to choose life.

But if one lumps in the FREE WILL CHOICE of mankind INTO that term as well as the act of God in DRAWING - then obviously - some freely choose to submit while others freely choose rebellion.

So the question - how much are you loading into that term.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Pastor Larry]

The call of God is "always effectual" if it is defined as that "DRAWING of all mankind to God" John 12:32 for it always will convict of sin and it always will ENABLE the choice to choose life.

yes it is, but the problem is that you misdefine "all" in that passage. As the context indicates, it is a reference to all kinds of men, men from every tribe, tongue, people, and nation as John says in Rev 5. It is not a reference to all men without exception. If it were, then all would be saved, for Jesus promises to raise up all that the Father draws to him.

So the question - how much are you loading into that term.

It is quite clear from the passages mentioned that the "call" is what sets the believer and the unbeliever apart. As RC mentioned, Rom 8:30 says that the called will be justified and glorified. That has to be an effectual call that not all receive. There is no legitimate way around that.

 

[Pastor Larry]

In John 6 we find that no one can come to God unless they are drawn. What is the "purpose of the drawing" but to enable someone to come to God??

And you find that all who are drawn come to him and are raised up at the last day. If all men without exception are drawn, then we have to be universalists, or deny what Christ said. I prefer just to go with the text and say that those who are drawn will come and will be raised up at the last day.

The drawing does enable the response. It is usually called regeneration. some call it the effectual call. But the principle is certainly there, no matter the term used.

 

[rc]

Bob,

The purpose of God drawing IS the ENABLING... your problem is they WILL be raised in the last day... and of John 12? ... Read it in context... first of all it is NOT in context with John 6 but this doesn't even matter.

If you look in CONTEXT to what was going on and WHO was there you will find the correct answer.

In verse 19 it shows the Pharisees where there.. they stated "The whole WORLD has gone after Him!"
(did the WHOLE world go after Him? ... NO) This is the mindset of the racially minded Jews. They are the chosen and everybody else is "the world"... (also important to understanding John 3.16) ...

In verse 20 John goes OUT OF THE WAY to state that the GREEKS were there.

Now you have the proper stage set to understand what Jesus was saying in context... A JEW ... talking to JEWS with a JEWISH mindset. Just as the Pharisees said "the whole world" Jesus uses another Jewish phrase... ALL people... He could of just as easily said "WHOLE WORLD" and meant the exact same thing... Any Jew reading this would understand it the same way...

The meaning of Jesus is "I will draw not only Jews but also the Greeks" (remember they were in his presence!)

This is in perfect harmony with what Jesus was ALWAYS talking about... The racially minded Jews ONLY thought the Messiah was for THEM! But Jesus taught the Messiah was not only for the Jews BUT every NATIONALITY!

So, no problem here.... you on the other hand either have to give up this nonsense or become a universalist... you CAN'T have it any other way. The text doesn't allow you anything else. ALL that are drawn will be raised. John 12 is mute in the debate. Please let scripture form your heart and not your heart form scripture. Your philosphy has put you in a box.

 

[BobRyan]

quote:
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The call of God is "always effectual" if it is defined as that "DRAWING of all mankind to God" John 12:32 for it always will convict of sin and it always will ENABLE the choice to choose life.
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Pastor Larry -
yes it is, but the problem is that you misdefine "all" in that passage.

Now we are getting somewhere.

#1. In John 12 it is an "unqualified" ALL. I don't try and downsize it by "qualifying" what the Bible has as UNQUALFIED.

#2. You admit that the drawing (even by Calvinist standards) accomplishes the ENABLING for choosing life.

(Not too surprising since this has been admitted many times in the past - but it usually gets "denied" again until we come around to this same point "again").

So the "real" difference is not that Arminians claim that the DRAWING will surely ENABLE what depravity DISABLES by way of ability to choose life. The difference is that Calvinists need to INSERT QUALFIERS into the term "ALL" where none exist.

Well that makes it clear.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

quote:
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In John 6 we find that no one can come to God unless they are drawn. What is the "purpose of the drawing" but to enable someone to come to God??
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Pastor Larry said --
And you find that all who are drawn come to him and are raised up at the last day. If all men without exception are drawn, then we have to be universalists, or deny what Christ said.

That is not the case at all. Calvinism had noped to "insert" added requirements INTO the text that don't exist (again).

The text "says" --

44 ""No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him;

Calvinism "hopes to insert" the idea that "All who ARE DRAWN - MUST come and be saved".

No such text is found in all of scripture.

What you have is a promise that "HE WHO COMES" to God will be saved and will be raised up. But you do not have "ALL who are drawn MUST accept Christ" as Calvinism would have us believe. It just is not in the text.

I the same way Christ says that He stands and knocks - but it is up to the one ALONE on the INSIDE to hear and open. He does not say "AND when I knock I will take the door down and you will find yourself to suddenly be in fellowship" as Calvinism so "needed" to find.

So that means we CAN trust Christ when He says ALL are DRAWN and we can trust Him when He says that ONLY by the DRAWING of GOD - CAN anyone come to Christ!

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by rc:
Bob,

The purpose of God drawing IS the ENABLING... your problem is they WILL be raised in the last day...

He says "HE who COMES to Me I will in no wise cast out"

AND He says "NO one CAN Come to me UNLESS they are drawn".

It does not say that "ALL who are drawn MUST accept Christ".

The promise is for those who choose to "come".

This is the same as we see in Rev 3- the promise of fellowship is not given to those that have Christ knocking at the door - because he is there knocking for all - but it is only for those who hear AND choose to OPEN.

So we see in John 1 "To as many as RECEIVED him...".

and of John 12? ... Read it in context... first of all it is NOT in context with John 6 but this doesn't even matter.

Actually it is - it is the same author same book talking about the same concept of "drawing".

IT is one thing to know that Drawing is ESSENTIAL to being "ABLE" to come to Christ it is another to discover that God is "DRAWING ALL". The author tells us BOTH are true in the SAME book.

The same term, same author same book combination make for a strong "context" argument.

In verse 19 it shows the Pharisees where there.. they stated "The whole WORLD has gone after Him!"
(did the WHOLE world go after Him? ... NO) This is the mindset of the racially minded Jews.

There is never a contextual basis to assume that Christ has the mindset of Pharisees. But they are prone to exagerate to make their point ( A Jewish custom I think). Christ's response is not "exageration in kind" as you seem to imply.

When HE says ALL and leaves it unqualified - it is "truth" not merely frustrated exageration.

In verse 20 John goes OUT OF THE WAY to state that the GREEKS were there.

No doubt but he never makes ANY attempt to say that "ALL" may be "reduced to a few greeks and a hand full of Jews"! In fact he goes the OPPOSITE direction and argues that it is an UNQUALIFIED "all" that is drawn.

Christ uses the fact of gentiles/foreigners coming to him -- resonding to his ministry as a launching point to make the case that in fact He is DRAWING ALL - not just Jews as if the Jews had some corner on salvation.

Christ's point is not the SELECTIVE or RESTRICTIVE nature of the drawing but the ALL ENCOMPASSING scope that by contrast to Jewish prejudice embraces ALL.

So, no problem here.... you on the other hand either have to give up this nonsense or become a universalist...

This again is a false either or fallacy. Since Christ did not say "ALL who are drawn MUST come to Me" (and neither does any other text of scripture) the result is that ALL are DRAWN and that ALL "CAN come to ME" because only those drawn CAN COME.

This is devastating to the Calvinist position so it tries to "insert" the idea that "ALL drawn MUST come". It just is not in the text.

John 12 is devasting to the case for Calvinism. The fact that it is the same author, same book making the SAME point about the DRAWING of God - only seals the deal!

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Prior to the Drawing statement in John 6 Christ makes it clear that coming to Christ AND BELIEVING is required to obtain the promise.

Thoughts on John 6

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />
35 Jesus said to them, "" I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst.
36 ""But I said to you that you have seen Me, and yet do not believe.

Again - Christ appeals to both coming AND believing when you come to Christ. He never argues "drawing alone makes you saved". He argues for SEEING and then BELIEVING. SEEING Christ and the signs He performed called the people to CHOOSE whether to believe or not.

Christ does not say "I failed to pith your brain and still you do not believe" NOR does He say "I forcibly pithed your brain but still for some reason you are
not believing" - THESE methods are not Christs - but Satan's. Christ showed that HE was SHOWING them the bread of life - JUST as He showed to the disciples
but these listeners were refusing to choose - the work of God - to BELIEVE. Of course many of these same people would later become Christians in Acts 2 - for now they were stuck in unbelief.

37 "" All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.
38 ""For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
39 ""This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.
40 ""For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.''

The same model again - "You have SEEN ME - so BELIEVE" for the model is "EVERYONE who BEHOLDS the SON and BELIEVES.. will have eternal life" -
NO EMPHASIS is placed on forcible brain pithing as in "every brain I PITH WILL BE FORCED to BELIEVE". All such methods are foreign to the chapter.

41 Therefore the Jews were grumbling about Him, because He said, ""I am the bread that came down out of heaven.''
42 They were saying, "" Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does He now say, " I have come down out of heaven'?''
43 Jesus answered and said to them, ""Do not grumble among yourselves.
44 ""No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

Here Jesus shows that no one CAN come to Him without the supernatural drawing of God. But he does not say “all that are drawn WILL choose to come” nor does He say “All that are drawn WILL come and WILL believe”, nor does the text says “God will only draw SOME”. (Yet this is exactly the distinctive teaching of Calvinism).

In fact (by contrast to Calvinism) in John 12 Christ will make it clear "I will DRAW ALL MEN" unto myself. The enticement - the drawing - the supernatural power moving like the gentle breeze of John 3 - is not FORCING the FEW and IGNORING the many - but is DRAWING ALL - gently and without being seen just as John 3 tells us.

"Behold I stand at the door and knock" Rev 3 (John again). Not "Behold I burst through the door and slam dunk your mind causing you to choose Me". The "dragging all men to Me" part that Calvinism so desires to see in scripture - is not there.

Christ has made it clear that the Drawing enables mankind to come to Him. He has already pointed out that of those who are “Drawn” everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him Will have eternal life.

</font>[/QUOTE]In Christ,

Bob

 

[Pastor Larry]

Look at the verse again:

44 ""No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent me draws him -- This fits right in with vv. 64-65, two killer verses for your position. It teaches that all who come must be drawn.

But it goes on. "I will raise him up" ... Who is him? The answer is clear: The one who is drawn. There can be no other choice. The one drawn is the one in view, and he will come and will be raised up.

Bob, you shouldn't just ignore what the text says. You quote irrelevant verses that we don't disagree on (like the last one you quote). I don't know why. Apparently you hope that some will skip over what you actually do say. For all your many words, you don't actually say very much. You should focus on more substance and less verbiage.

 

[Sularis]

the drawn will be raised up?

WOah there Larry

that is some purty bad reading there

The verse does not make any suggestion that all who are drawn come - and since you already agreed to a universal call - you should therefore agree not all called/drawn come

but nots let even deal with that lets deal with sentence structure raising refers to the man who comes because the draw clearly refers to the coming in this place and clearly so in Greek

 

[BobRyan]

John 6 shows the leading context into vs 44 is "he who beholds AND BELIEVES" -- But Calivnism needs to snippet vs 44 OUT of that context and pretend that 44 says "ALL who are drawn MUST COME to God".

THEN it has to go to chapter 12 and insist that "DRAWN" does not mean "DRAWN" the way 6:44 means "DRAWN".

Oh what tangled webs they weave!!

 

[rc]

I love it when Arminians try to understand John 6 (or anything else for that matter) ...

How bout BEFORE 44 Bob.... 37? ... Drawn DOES mean the same in 12...that's not the argument...


The verse does not make any suggestion that all who are drawn come ....

Him is HIM isn't it? The pronoun refers to just one person? It is a universal in juxtaposition to the universal negative in "NO MAN CAN COME"...
The Him who is raised is the universal "him" who is DRAGGED! This is in context with those the Father gives him in 37 and He will lose none and raise it on the last day...

This has NOTHING to do with the universal call since the object is the ones EFFECTUALLY called. The general called ones that have not been given to Jesus ARE NOT ABLE to come to Him... Thus, "no man CAN come to me"... that's the whole point of the statement ! Don't believe it? Keep on reading to verse 65 He makes the point AGAIN ... don't believe it? Agree with those in verse 66 then, they didn't either...