DGOETTP part two

[AustinC]

God did leave creation to itself for one Lord's Day. And that is not a 24 hour period, either. Read Genesis 2. Free will may be a philosophy like Calvinism is just a philosophy. But free will itself is just the ability to choose without coercion. God did create the universe with laws so it can do just that. Those laws may be restrictive, but they allow choices to be made with that free will humanity has to make them, without outside coercion of any type. Of course no one has free will to become God, and make God dissappear from eternity. God does not force one to be a slave to sin or a slave to righteousness. That is a free will choice allowed to humans without coercion. So talk about philosophy and imagine all the things about this point except for the bottom line. When you can prove no one has a choice, but is a programmed robot, then that is outside coercion making you do what your own mind is unable to do.

If one chooses of their own free will to submit to being a slave to righteousness, they are not being coerced into that decision. Once a slave to righteousness, it is not coercion that keeps you a slave, it is still your free will to submit. But giving up rights and submitting, leads to you letting God control your will, and of course it is not free at that point. You cannot be disingenuous in your submission. But there is a huge difference in having a choice, and not ever having one, due to coercion. One is not a slave to sin before birth. One is a sinner, but learning to sin happens just like learning to do what is right. Because until there are laws to willingly or willfully break, one does not sin, even though one is born a sinner. It is the breaking of laws that is the sin.

First, I disagree with your definition of free will.
Second, the Bible very clearly says that humans are either slaves to sin or slaves to righteousness. There is no third option or choice as to which one you are enslaved. You were born enslaved by sin, just as the Hebrews in Egypt were born enslaved by the Egyptians.
The story of the people of Israel being set free from Egyptian slavery and made slaves of Yahweh shows that freedom is a fantasy.
Making choices within a parameter doesn't mean you are free. It only means your slave master hasn't fully chained you to the wall.

When people argue for free will they are really telling God that they demand he take a back seat while they drive the car.

 

[AustinC]

Yet you are irrational in stating there is no free will.

Point to any entity forcing you to declare there is no free will. Let us see who is the rational one here.

I keep waiting for scripture where God fails to accomplish whatever he desires because because human will was free from any restraint or coercion.
I will point you to Romans 1 as evidence that free will does not exist.

 

[timtofly]

When people argue for free will they are really telling God that they demand he take a back seat while they drive the car.

I don't like your definition of free will.

Free will - the power of acting without the constraint of God (necessity or fate); the ability to choose (act at one's own discretion).

I don't accept necessity or fate even exist. God is Sovereign over creation, so it is God not necessity or fate. How does God giving humanity dominion of earth negate acting in one's own discretion on earth?

No where does this definition claim humans boss God around. No where does this definition say humans can surpass God's Sovereignty and change reality. Your definition is fantasy.

You even have free will to choose to reply or not. God nor any other source can force you to choose one way or the other. God knows the result of your choice, but If you claim God made you decide, then anything you do, by your own acknowledgement, is you telling God you are in charge of reality. See how nonsensical your definition of free will is? If you don't answer you by your own admission are slapping God in the face. If you do answer, by your own admission you are slapping God in the face. Because you claim your choices either way is slapping God in the face. You claim you have no ability to choose, when God says, yes you can, because I gave you the ability to choose. The ability to choose with out it being pre-determined is free will.

God pre-determined and elected every soul and gave them the free will to choose without coercion. Choosing or not choosing either way is not demanding God anything. God already provided the free gift of Atonement. Paid for it Himself. God even knew who would choose that free gift.

So you saying there is no free will is limiting God, even though you claim God choose for them not to choose. If that is the case, why does God change some hearts and minds to turn away, as in Pharoah and Nebuchadnezzar? If they were already stuck in a choice, why did God work on them in the opposite direction? Free will does not negate God's plan. God can take free will away. But your claim is it does not even exist.

 

[timtofly]

I keep waiting for scripture where God fails to accomplish whatever he desires because because human will was free from any restraint or coercion.
I will point you to Romans 1 as evidence that free will does not exist.

No, Romans 1 proves God can remove free will. It is not proof there is no free will.

Are you saying despite plenty of Scripture to the contrary that many souls are born without Adam's sin nature and from conception they are slaves to righteousness? Because that is what you declare literally and figuratively. You call the lack of free will sinless perfection. Which means Jesus did not have to be born of a virgin. Joseph could have given Him His genetics, but Jesus would have been a slave to righteousness just like all your other slaves to righteousness. One group is of sin, a slave to sin. The few are sinless, slaves to righteousness.

There is no verse that declares your version of reality without free will. There is no verse that declares you telling God what is what.

There is John 3:16-18

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

How is believing not considered a free will choice in this passage? Even condemnation is based on what one believes. Now the term belief is so generalized today it is not even viewed as a choice. But no where in this passage does it declare God already made that choice and decided what each person believes. All that God did was love the whole world and provided the Atonement for the whole world.

One is condemned already because they are Adam's flesh and blood, not because they missed being part of some group born slaves to righteousness. All of Adam's flesh and blood have to make that decision to become slaves to righteousness. They are not born that way. Remaing in unbelief is remaining a slave to sin. Paul states we have to crucify the flesh daily to maintain being a slave to righteousness. Is Paul wrong about crucifying the flesh daily, since you claim you don't have to, it is automatically done for you?

 

[AustinC]

No, Romans 1 proves God can remove free will. It is not proof there is no free will.

Are you saying despite plenty of Scripture to the contrary that many souls are born without Adam's sin nature and from conception they are slaves to righteousness? Because that is what you declare literally and figuratively. You call the lack of free will sinless perfection. Which means Jesus did not have to be born of a virgin. Joseph could have given Him His genetics, but Jesus would have been a slave to righteousness just like all your other slaves to righteousness. One group is of sin, a slave to sin. The few are sinless, slaves to righteousness.

There is no verse that declares your version of reality without free will. There is no verse that declares you telling God what is what.

There is John 3:16-18

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

How is believing not considered a free will choice in this passage? Even condemnation is based on what one believes. Now the term belief is so generalized today it is not even viewed as a choice. But no where in this passage does it declare God already made that choice and decided what each person believes. All that God did was love the whole world and provided the Atonement for the whole world.

One is condemned already because they are Adam's flesh and blood, not because they missed being part of some group born slaves to righteousness. All of Adam's flesh and blood have to make that decision to become slaves to righteousness. They are not born that way. Remaing in unbelief is remaining a slave to sin. Paul states we have to crucify the flesh daily to maintain being a slave to righteousness. Is Paul wrong about crucifying the flesh daily, since you claim you don't have to, it is automatically done for you?

First, Romans 1 and Romans 3 show that no human ever willfully chooses God.

Second, all humans are born in sin. Depraved by the curse.

Third, since the first point is true, any capacity to believe is a gracious wirk of God in making a person alive with Christ and giving that person the gift of faith so that they will believe (Ephesians 2:1-10).

 

[Aaron]

I don't like your definition of free will.

Free will - the power of acting without the constraint of God (necessity or fate); the ability to choose (act at one's own discretion).

I don't accept necessity or fate even exist. God is Sovereign over creation, so it is God not necessity or fate. How does God giving humanity dominion of earth negate acting in one's own discretion on earth?

No where does this definition claim humans boss God around. No where does this definition say humans can surpass God's Sovereignty and change reality. Your definition is fantasy.

You even have free will to choose to reply or not. God nor any other source can force you to choose one way or the other. God knows the result of your choice, but If you claim God made you decide, then anything you do, by your own acknowledgement, is you telling God you are in charge of reality. See how nonsensical your definition of free will is? If you don't answer you by your own admission are slapping God in the face. If you do answer, by your own admission you are slapping God in the face. Because you claim your choices either way is slapping God in the face. You claim you have no ability to choose, when God says, yes you can, because I gave you the ability to choose. The ability to choose with out it being pre-determined is free will.

God pre-determined and elected every soul and gave them the free will to choose without coercion. Choosing or not choosing either way is not demanding God anything. God already provided the free gift of Atonement. Paid for it Himself. God even knew who would choose that free gift.

So you saying there is no free will is limiting God, even though you claim God choose for them not to choose. If that is the case, why does God change some hearts and minds to turn away, as in Pharoah and Nebuchadnezzar? If they were already stuck in a choice, why did God work on them in the opposite direction? Free will does not negate God's plan. God can take free will away. But your claim is it does not even exist.

But one cannot choose to believe, and one cannot choose what he loves. He either believes or he does not. He either loves darkness, or he loves the appearing of the Lord. Ask the obese man to stop loving food.

Ask the lame man to choose to leap.

 

[timtofly]

First, Romans 1 and Romans 3 show that no human ever willfully chooses God.

Second, all humans are born in sin. Depraved by the curse.

Third, since the first point is true, any capacity to believe is a gracious work of God in making a person alive with Christ and giving that person the gift of faith so that they will believe (Ephesians 2:1-10).

I am sure it says they willfully disobey God, which is not the same as willfully choosing God. Since you did not quote a verse that states they do not have the ability to choose God, I will just take it you are changing the text to "fit" your bias.

Willfully disobeying means the choice of one's will. Not that God is forcing them to disobey Himself. Romans 1:19-20

"Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:"

God is not forcing any one against their will, nor are they so depraved, they have an excuse.

"Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things."

This was a willful choice, but then God stepped in.

"For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections:"

You cannot apply this as a blanket statement of all humanity. You cannot skip the steps leading to that point on an individual level. Before a person can become reprobate, they have to be born. They have to live. They have to experience God's gift of life, not salvation, but they are without excuse that God does not exist. They then have to hear the truth, then and only then can they reject that truth and turn that truth into their own human lies. You skipped all those steps and claimed they were conceived as reprobate.

Yes Romans 3 declares, we are all born in sin, and part of Adam's dead corruptible flesh. That is not the point. The point is you claim they have no will to accept or reject the truth.

 

[timtofly]

But one cannot choose to believe, and one cannot choose what he loves. He either believes or he does not. He either loves darkness, or he loves the appearing of the Lord. Ask the obese man to stop loving food.

Ask the lame man to choose to leap.

Human reasoning leads to error.

Quote a verse, don't use logic, only.

One does have to choose the spiritual life. The second birth is a choice. It is not automatic. Jesus clearly said, "You must be born again." Show me the verse that Jesus declares, "Many humans will automatically be born again, because free will does not exist".

If you cannot find the part, "because free will does not exist", at least the first part.

 

[Aaron]

Human reasoning leads to error.

Quote a verse, don't use logic, only.

One does have to choose the spiritual life. The second birth is a choice. It is not automatic. Jesus clearly said, "You must be born again." Show me the verse that Jesus declares, "Many humans will automatically be born again, because free will does not exist".

If you cannot find the part, "because free will does not exist", at least the first part.

Child's play.

Romans 8:7