"Di" vs. "Tri"

[Van]

I understand, but obviously the Godhead made a determinable distinction between soul and spirit and it is our duty to dig into this deeper at some point. Admittedly I have not as of yet, but I do see the Word showing us a specific separation between soul/spirit.

Quite the opposite. The verse tells us our innermost being is joined together, soul and spirit, and that the word of God penetrates and lays bare whatever is hidden there.

No one in the "three camp" can explain the purpose of a soul without a spirit, or a spirit without a soul. If you sever a head from a body, neither the head nor the body survives. It is a silly nonsensical view that provides no purpose except to create division within the body.

 

[JamesL]

Quite the opposite. The verse tells us our innermost being is joined together, soul and spirit, and that the word of God penetrates and lays bare whatever is hidden there.

No one in the "three camp" can explain the purpose of a soul without a spirit, or a spirit without a soul.

I have an explanation for how soul and spirit are distinct. As I noted already, I believe we are a dichotomy of spirit and flesh, as far as our substance is concerned. But that there is also a distinction between spirit and soul that does make a difference as far as sin and righteousness are concerned.

Not that believing one way or another affects our eternal destiny, but that spirit, soul and body are all treated distinctly in regard to sin and righteousness. And that a proper mediating position clears up many seemingly conflicted statements in scripture.

How is it we're saved by grace, through faith, yet baptism saves? How are we forgiven of all things by virtue of bing alive in Christ, but we must forgive others to be forgiven? How are we cleansed in the new birth, through faith, yet we will be cleansed if we confess? And if we don't confess, doesn't that mean we aren't forgiven? And if we aren't forgiven, does that mean our eternal destiny is at risk?

These are difficult for some, because they seem conflicted. But they don't have to be difficult. Most are content just abiding in a doctrinal structure that neglects these important distinctions. But there are answers.

More on this later tonight. I'm doodling on my phone right now, and must get back to work

 

[JamesL]

No one in the "three camp" can explain the purpose of a soul without a spirit, or a spirit without a soul. If you sever a head from a body, neither the head nor the body survives. It is a silly nonsensical view that provides no purpose except to create division within the body.

I agree that the soul and spirit are inextricably joined, but there is no way that the two are synonymous. As I have stated:
Whither the spirit goeth, the soul taggeth along

In certain passages, soul and spirit are seemingly used interchangeably because the spirit is the primary substance of the human. Therefore, it is completely rational to say that where the man is, his ego is also.

But, upon looking at certain passages in scripture, it becomes blatantly obvious that when speaking of the soul, it is no way speaking of the spirit or the flesh.

Leviticus 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you on the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood by reason of the life that makes atonement.

This atonement was most certainly for their conscience. Because their sins had been "covered", their minds did not have to be burdened with guilt. Leviticus 5 deals with guilt offerings for individual sins.

Hebrews states:

Heb 9:8-10
The Holy Spirit is signifying this, that the way into the holy place has not yet been disclosed while the outer tabernacle is still standing, which is a symbol for the present time. Accordingly both gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make the worshiper perfect in conscience, since they relate only to food and drink and various washings, regulations for the body imposed until a time of reformation.

Heb 9:13-15
For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled sanctify for the cleansing of the flesh, how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Heb 10:22
let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.

The conscience can be clean only because the blood of Jesus washes away the sin from our spirit.
Hebrews 10:1-4
For the Law, since it has only a shadow of the good things to come and not the very form of things, can never, by the same sacrifices which they offer continually year by year, make perfect those who draw near. Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, because the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have had consciousness of sins? But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins year by year. For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

This is a total removal of sin, which is the essence of regeneration of the spirit. Saved by the washing of regeneration (Titus 3:5). The New Creation (2Cor 5:17-21) is dealing with the spirit:
Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ.....He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.


However, the cleansing of the conscience happens when we are baptized:
1Peter 3:21
the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water. Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ

Romans 6:3-7
Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; for he who has died is freed from sin.

Then, after this initial cleansing at baptism, there is an ongoing issue of experiencing a guilty conscience.
1John 1:9
If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness

This is most certainly not speaking of cleansing the flesh, for it will continue in its current state until physical death. It cannot be speaking of the spirit being cleansed, for that happens at regeneration.

There is a three-fold cleansing:
the spirit is cleansed at regeneration. A new creation, new heart, new spirit, an actual righteousness that goes far beyond justification. In justification, we are viewed as righteous, whereas in regeneration, we become the righteousness of God and are sealed forevermore from sin. According to 1John 3:5-9, the one who is born of God is not capable of sinning.

the soul is cleansed at baptism and many times after. We can walk in newness of life, not burdened by the failures of the flesh. Romans 6 Paul speaks of this newness of life, and in 714-25 tells how it works. It is no longer I, but sin in me, that is, in my flesh.

the body will be raised in a cleansed state at the regeneration, or resurrection (Matt 19:28). It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. (1Cor 15:42-44). When all the contrasts are taken as a whole, it becomes clear that this current body is sin-wrecked, but or resurrected body will be NOT sin-wrecked


There is much more. This is only a small treatment of how the spirit/soul/body are dealt with in the believer.

But mining through this issue also irons out the conflicted teachings of original sin compared with an age of accountability. It answers the issue of eternal security, the nature of the new creation as objective rather than subjective, and a whole lot.

 

[Van]

How is it we're saved by grace, through faith, yet baptism saves? How are we forgiven of all things by virtue of bing alive in Christ, but we must forgive others to be forgiven? How are we cleansed in the new birth, through faith, yet we will be cleansed if we confess? And if we don't confess, doesn't that mean we aren't forgiven? And if we aren't forgiven, does that mean our eternal destiny is at risk?

These are difficult for some, because they seem conflicted. But they don't have to be difficult. Most are content just abiding in a doctrinal structure that neglects these important distinctions. But there are answers.

1) The baptism that "saves" us is the spiritual baptism we undergo when the Holy Spirit baptized us into Christ, transferring us from the realm of darkness to the kingdom of His Son.

2) When we go "all in" for Christ, accepting His forgiveness of our sins, past, present and future, we accept that Christ would forgive all the sins of others committed against us, and therefore we have forgiven those who have sinned against us in trusting in Christ for the forgiveness of our sins. And we need to reaffirm that "love of others" view in prayer as we experience the difficulties of living in the world but not being of the world.

3) Again, we are forgiven all our sins, past, present and future, when we are placed in Christ and undergo the circumcision of Christ, but we still struggle with sin, doing and thinking sinful things, and we need to confess (recognize and identify) them and strive to avoid them in the future. This striving under the influence of our indwelt Holy Spirit proves our salvation. If we do not have that influence in our lives, it indicates we do not have the Holy Spirit.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

Quite the opposite. The verse tells us our innermost being is joined together, soul and spirit, and that the word of God penetrates and lays bare whatever is hidden there.

But the use of the two separate words psuche and pneuma make it plain that these are two distinct spiritual organs, and though inseparable, nonetheless separate.

No one in the "three camp" can explain the purpose of a soul without a spirit, or a spirit without a soul. If you sever a head from a body, neither the head nor the body survives. It is a silly nonsensical view that provides no purpose except to create division within the body.

Ridiculous. If your logic were followed, then there would be no need to differentiate the "head" from the "body" as you did here, but obviously you found the need to do so in reference to the two. The same is true of the soul and the spirit. They may be inseparable, but they are not the same thing.

 

[Van]

1) I did not say nor suggest the soul and the spirit are synonymous. The core characteristics of our human spirit are referred to as our soul.

2) Actually Leviticus 17:11 says the soul of the flesh is in the blood and therefore the blood provides the propitiatory shelter for the soul.

3) Conscience is an aspect or attribute of our soul. We know we sin and if we say we do not sin, we are a liar and the Spirit is not in us. We can have a clear conscience only by the realization that our sins are forgiven, we are justified (it is just as if we did not sin). Before being saved, and arising in Christ as a new creation, all our works were dead, leading to death. Filthy rags. But as a saved person, created for good works, our works if built on the foundation of Christ with eternal things that will not burn up, earn rewards.

The soul/spirit is cleansed when we are regenerated spiritually in Christ undergoing the circumcision of Christ.

Being put spiritually in Christ results in:

1) salvation
2) justification
3) regeneration or born anew
4) forgiveness of all our sin, past, present and future
5) being sealed with the Holy Spirit as a pledge to our future adoption (bodily resurrection).
6) eternal life
7) opportunity to earn rewards for good works.

 

[Van]

Hi TND, two words can be used to describe two aspects of one entity, like heads or tails of a coin. Our human spirit is formed within us at conception, and as we develop our soul or the core characteristics of our human spirit, and the two are inseparable.

 

[convicted1]

Thank you guys for all your thoughs on this subject. :thumbs:

 

[Yeshua1]

My view is probably a hybrid between dichotomy and trichotomy. Here's why:

1 )I agree with the dichotomy view that soul and spirit are (at least seemingly) used interchangeably at certain points in scripture

2) I agree with the trichotomy view that Hebrews 4:12 says that the word of God can divide the spirit and soul, and Paul said, "Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."


I see only one way to reconcile the issue. Spirit and body are what we are, while soul is who we are.

The body is that visible, material, physical aspect of a human
The spirit is that immaterial aspect of us that is invisible to a human eye.

Our soul is our psyche - our awareness, conscience, personality, will, rationale, etc.

The reason that soul seems to be used interchangeably with spirit is that the two are joined. Man is a spirit, at home in a material body. Paul considered that our body is a tent, or clothing that we "put off" in death. We will be clothed again in the resurrection, for we are incomplete without our body. In other words, our body is not necessary for us to exist, but without it we are naked and incomplete.

The soul isn't attached to the body, or else our soul would sleep in death (as our body does). Jesus' account of Lazarus and the rich man teaches us that a man, separated from his body, is fully aware. So our soul is attached to our spirit.

Whither the spirit goeth, the soul taggeth along

So, though I can agree with some premises of each view, I believe each is incorrect in considering the soul as part of "what" we are

We are spirit, and we are body, but we have a soul.

Soul is distinct from spirit, but not separated

I believe this view makes the most sense as to why the soul and spirit are not the same thing, but either can be used in the context of the immaterial aspect of a man - seemingly interchangeably, but not quite

First off, to me NOT a cardinal essential doctrine, nor one to divide over!

My take is that when Adam fell, he died in a spiritual sense, as a sinner, had broke fellowship/communion with God, no longer was in a spiritual condition right with him!

So ALL humans spiritual dead in spirit, until born from above, then have a spiritual state restored back to God!

So the lost are physical bodies, with minds , souls if you will

Saved have the Spiritual component made alive anew in Christ!

 

[Darrell C]

My view is probably a hybrid between dichotomy and trichotomy. Here's why:

1 )I agree with the dichotomy view that soul and spirit are (at least seemingly) used interchangeably at certain points in scripture

2) I agree with the trichotomy view that Hebrews 4:12 says that the word of God can divide the spirit and soul, and Paul said, "Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."


I see only one way to reconcile the issue. Spirit and body are what we are, while soul is who we are.

The body is that visible, material, physical aspect of a human
The spirit is that immaterial aspect of us that is invisible to a human eye.
Our soul is our psyche - our awareness, conscience, personality, will, rationale, etc.

The reason that soul seems to be used interchangeably with spirit is that the two are joined. Man is a spirit, at home in a material body. Paul considered that our body is a tent, or clothing that we "put off" in death. We will be clothed again in the resurrection, for we are incomplete without our body. In other words, our body is not necessary for us to exist, but without it we are naked and incomplete.

The soul isn't attached to the body, or else our soul would sleep in death (as our body does). Jesus' account of Lazarus and the rich man teaches us that a man, separated from his body, is fully aware. So our soul is attached to our spirit.

Whither the spirit goeth, the soul taggeth along

So, though I can agree with some premises of each view, I believe each is incorrect in considering the soul as part of "what" we are

We are spirit, and we are body, but we have a soul.

Soul is distinct from spirit, but not separated

I believe this view makes the most sense as to why the soul and spirit are not the same thing, but either can be used in the context of the immaterial aspect of a man - seemingly interchangeably, but not quite

The reconciliation, in my view, would be that we see the term soul used almost exclusively to refer to a man in his totality. It's use in that context is not negated by a few verses which suggest a three part make-up.

So if "soul" is used in the two above-mentioned verses, then we now have to equally say there are two "souls" in Scripture, which in itself is okay, because we see terms used for various meanings.

It's a great discussion, though. And I would agree with you that this is an issue of great importance. Understanding it will help us to battle false doctrines such as Soul Sleep and Annihilation.


God bless.