"Dialing for Dollars" or is that "Converts?"

[Rhetorician]

To all who have an ear to hear:

I do believe I have just about seen it all now. First Baptist Church Hammond, IN and their "Dialing for Dollars" or is that "Souls" campaign--roulette wheel and all. I don't even know how to comment on this? Is this how far fundamentalism has fallen? Is there any Gospel anywhere close to these types of "come on down" Hollywood techniques? :tear: Is it just about "counting warm bodies?"

This is a must see. Please read the blog intro before watching the short less than 3 minute video.

Please tell me later that this is not the norm for the "fundamentalist's camp?" :tear:

http://5ptsalt.com/2010/07/21/cash-for-converts/

I want to hear some opinions, strong I hope, of what you think of where we are. I tell people I am in a "Twelve Step" program for "Reformed Fundamentalists." And antics like this are why!!

"That is all!"

PS. I was going to put a hyperlink concerning this "Cash for Converts" over in the "Fundamentalist's Standards" thread but I see it has been closed by a wise moderator.

 

[thegospelgeek]

Lord Help Us!

 

[Mexdeaf]

Sadly typical...

 

[Salty]

The pastor said that they had 333 baptisms on that one Sunday.

I'm just wondering how many of those 333 will still be faithful members in 2011?

Lord Jesus, come quickly

 

[J.D.]

To all who have an ear to hear:

I do believe I have just about seen it all now. First Baptist Church Hammond, IN and their "Dialing for Dollars" or is that "Souls" campaign--roulette wheel and all. I don't even know how to comment on this? Is this how far fundamentalism has fallen? Is there any Gospel anywhere close to these types of "come on down" Hollywood techniques? :tear: Is it just about "counting warm bodies?"

This is a must see. Please read the blog intro before watching the short less than 3 minute video.

Please tell me later that this is not the norm for the "fundamentalist's camp?" :tear:

http://5ptsalt.com/2010/07/21/cash-for-converts/

I want to hear some opinions, strong I hope, of what you think of where we are. I tell people I am in a "Twelve Step" program for "Reformed Fundamentalists." And antics like this are why!!

"That is all!"

PS. I was going to put a hyperlink concerning this "Cash for Converts" over in the "Fundamentalist's Standards" thread but I see it has been closed by a wise moderator.

Don't waste your time criticizing FBC Hammond. Face it, they care about souls and we don't. After all, how many "bus kids" did YOUR puny little church baptize last Sunday??? The ends justify the means, didn't you know that?

 

[Don]

For a moment there, I almost took JD seriously.

 

[tinytim]

What is sad is that there are people, even here on this board, that has supported this Wolf in Schaap's clothing!.. This is just one reason, I NEVER want to be called a fundamentalist anymore.. 10-20 yrs ago... sure, but the term has been hijacked by easy believism con men who are selling their wares, and calling it the gospel...

 

[Revmitchell]

To all who have an ear to hear:

I do believe I have just about seen it all now. First Baptist Church Hammond, IN and their "Dialing for Dollars" or is that "Souls" campaign--roulette wheel and all. I don't even know how to comment on this? Is this how far fundamentalism has fallen? Is there any Gospel anywhere close to these types of "come on down" Hollywood techniques? :tear: Is it just about "counting warm bodies?"

This is a must see. Please read the blog intro before watching the short less than 3 minute video.

Please tell me later that this is not the norm for the "fundamentalist's camp?" :tear:

http://5ptsalt.com/2010/07/21/cash-for-converts/

I want to hear some opinions, strong I hope, of what you think of where we are. I tell people I am in a "Twelve Step" program for "Reformed Fundamentalists." And antics like this are why!!

"That is all!"

PS. I was going to put a hyperlink concerning this "Cash for Converts" over in the "Fundamentalist's Standards" thread but I see it has been closed by a wise moderator.

This appears to be an opportunity for you to justify bashing all of fundamentalism. Good luck with that?

 

[Tom Butler]

This appears to be an opportunity for you to justify bashing all of fundamentalism. Good luck with that?

I didn't take Rhet's post as fundy-bashing.

He distinctly said:

Please tell me later that this is not the norm for the "fundamentalist's camp?"

I did take the post as bashing the practice of paying people to invite others.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

The person who feels views life as a tragedy. A person who thinks, views life as a comedy.......IE, this is a big fact joke. :laugh:

 

[Revmitchell]

I didn't take Rhet's post as fundy-bashing.

He distinctly said:


I did take the post as bashing the practice of paying people to invite others.

Since there is no reason to assume a broad brush norm there is no reason to ask such a question unless you just wanted to make that suggestion.

 

[Tom Butler]

Since there is no reason to assume a broad brush norm there is no reason to ask such a question unless you just wanted to make that suggestion.

I remember a couple of IFB churches in my city which hid dollar bills under the seats of its buses to entice kids to ride their buses to church instead of to another church. This was right out of the bus ministry playbook.

The type of thing Rhet cited at FBC Hammond extends far beyond fundamentalist churches. I read of one church in a city with a casino which gave away slot machine tokens to visitors.

Another gave away a car in a drawing, and another gave away a motorcycle.

Notice the I-Pod giveaway on this sign at
http://crosebrough.typepad.com/.a/6a00e54eea61298833010535fbde99970c-pihttp://crosebrough.typepad.com/.a/6a00e54eea61298833010535fbde99970c-pi

None of them, thankfully, was a fundamentalist church.

 

[TomVols]

I wish I didn't see this sort of thing in IFB churches, but I do. I see two extremes. One is like what is referred to in the OP. The other came right from the mouth of an IFB pastor's wife yesterday. She told me that she and her hubby wouldn't allow their kids to go to a local church (SBC) because they "proselytize." I quizzingly looked at her, at she repeated it, saying they try to get people to "go to their church or try to get people saved. Isn't that awful?"

Yeah, terrible.

I grew up in an IFB church that didn't believe in evangelism or missions and blasted SBC churches specifically for street witnessing, etc., and there are many churches nearby who still believe this nonsense like this woman and her hubby.

 

[Tom Butler]

I wish I didn't see this sort of thing in IFB churches, but I do. I see two extremes. One is like what is referred to in the OP. The other came right from the mouth of an IFB pastor's wife yesterday. She told me that she and her hubby wouldn't allow their kids to go to a local church (SBC) because they "proselytize." I quizzingly looked at her, at she repeated it, saying they try to get people to "go to their church or try to get people saved. Isn't that awful?"

Yeah, terrible.

I grew up in an IFB church that didn't believe in evangelism or missions and blasted SBC churches specifically for street witnessing, etc., and there are many churches nearby who still believe this nonsense like this woman and her hubby.

Tom, I'll have to say that I'm shocked at your story. That's certainly not the image I have of an IFB church.

 

[Gregory Perry Sr.]

More Reason To Be Sad...and GLAD At The Same Time

All of this just makes me want to go on to Heaven and put all of this behind me just so much the more.All the fighting back and forth between the "Christians"is sad. When the world observes us doing all this fighting among ourselves it just serves to push them further away from the truth. That said.....I know we must stand up for the truth. I guess it should come as no surprise that this video clip is found on a calvinist blog site since they (mostly anyway) believe that mass soulwinning techniques would be a waste of time since "you're either IN....or you're NOT and there's nothing you can do about it since you're either "predestined" to heaven or hell (due to their unbiblical interpretation of election & predestination)with no say or choice in the matter...! IMHO that is a wicked and unbiblical LIE !) Thank God Spurgeon,though a calvinist,was wise enough NOT to believe that(from my reading I understand he believed in getting the Gospel to as many people as possible while believing that God does the "saving")! I'm sure the people at FBC Hammond have absolutely no problem with the things they are doing since the motive to their methods is winning souls to Jesus. I'm equally certain that the idea that "the ends justifies the means" is NOT right,but at the same time I think it is safe to say that there will be some in Heaven that were won in the midst of these type of "soulwinning" campaigns. The "winning" IS God's business.....the "campaigns" (such as they are) are man's business. I'm not saying they are right.....I'm just saying that I must truthfully admit that they are doing more to win folk to Jesus in their "trying" than I am personally doing so I will be careful to not go overboard in my criticism of their methods. Where the Word of God goes out,the Lord has promised that it would not return void.(Isa. 55:11)Romans 10:17 says that "faith cometh by HEARING". Wherever,by whomever and however the Word goes out to the people,God the Holy Spirit has the opportunity to work in the heart of the hearer. I'm not for "carnal" methodology but even that is better than no methodology at all. Unless we are willing to witness to all we encounter then we should be cautious about being too critical of those who use even dubious methods. I find myself convicted of my own INACTIVITY. At least they are trying....I can't say I did enough to win anyone this week...how about you?(and God Bless You if you did)

Gregory Perry Sr.

 

[Tom Butler]

No one doubts the zeal of the folks at FBC Hammond.

No one should oppose biblical evangelism and personal witnessing.

I would like to check on those 330 folks they baptized about a year from now, to see how many of them are still around.

I would also be curious to know if any of them had been baptized before.

When it comes to dealing with souls, there are some things which actually not better than doing nothing.

 

[TomVols]

When it comes to dealing with souls, there are some things which actually not better than doing nothing.

Good post Tom, and I have more to add to Mr. Perry's, but could you clarify what you mean in the quoted part?

 

[Salty]

Did a little research on Hammond. On the city time line, the only reference to First Baptist, is that it was founded in 1887. Wonder why?

The population of the city is 79,985 (2006)

Here are some interesting stats: so in March of 2005, the First Baptist Church moved into a new 7500-seat auditorium and, throughout that same year, saw over 25,000 converts baptized.

Wait a minute, they baptized 25 K in one year then over a period of ten years the total would be more than 100,000. What was the population of Hammond again... Hmmm

 

[Tom Butler]

My quote:

When it comes to dealing with souls, there are some things which actually not better than doing nothing.

Good post Tom, and I have more to add to Mr. Perry's, but could you clarify what you mean in the quoted part?

Here's the part of Mr. Perry's post that got my attention:

I'm not for "carnal" methodology but even that is better than no methodology at all. Unless we are willing to witness to all we encounter then we should be cautious about being too critical of those who use even dubious methods.

Here's how I read it: At least we're doing something, even if it's wrong. You're doing nothing, and doing something, even wrong, is better than doing nothing.

Mr. Perry eschewed "carnal" methodology, then declared carnal methodology to be better than nothing.

That's what triggered my remark at the top.

 

[Tom Butler]

Did a little research on Hammond. On the city time line, the only reference to First Baptist, is that it was founded in 1887. Wonder why?

The population of the city is 79,985 (2006)

Here are some interesting stats: so in March of 2005, the First Baptist Church moved into a new 7500-seat auditorium and, throughout that same year, saw over 25,000 converts baptized.

Wait a minute, they baptized 25 K in one year then over a period of ten years the total would be more than 100,000. What was the population of Hammond again... Hmmm

Now you know why I asked if some of those 300-plus had been baptized before. And, why I suggested that we check in a year on those folks to see how many are still around.

Now we can add a question. With 25,000 converts in one year, why stop with a 7500-seat auditorium. I notice there's only one Sunday morning service.

And surely there are thousands of converts each year, not just in 2005. If any of the folks at Hammond can explain their terrible retention rate, it'd be quite helpful.

Now to be fair, FBC Hammond does have an extensive bus ministry that transports people from other cities to their church. I don't know what their effective radius is, but at least into Chicago.