Dichotomy or Trichotomy?

[Allan]

Incorrect - if Mary's egg was used, Jesus would have been tainted by the sin of Man.

So your saying that man sins due to the flesh and not due to the sin nature?
The flesh like all creation is fallen. Jesus was not in a glorified body but like yours and mine; able to get sick, hurt, hunger, thirst, and even die.

Hbr 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as [we are, yet] without sin.

or the ESV:

For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin.

He clothed himself in flesh, not some special protective flesh that is not like the rest of His creation but like unto His creation. Otherwise how can not we have a High Priest who is able to sympathize with our weakness unless He Himself has partook and overcome them.

Christ was murdered and did not inherit the wages of sin.

So you think a person mudered has not died?? Please elaborate.

Sin is passed through the flesh. Again:

Psalm 51:5
Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.

Sin is not passed through the flesh and that verse does not validate your point.
The only thing it states is that man even at conception is IN sin.

Another view can be seen from the same passage (which I already gave):

Yes, you are a sinner through the transmission of the sin by the father. Without a father there is no creation of a child thus it is concieved IN or already in sin. Why, because the sin nature was passed on AT conception and therefore he was concieved already in sin.

Why do you believe Jesus had to be born of a virgin?
If to fulfill prophesy, still why was it necessary?

 

[Allan]

There is no sinless being born of Post-Fall Man (of not through, as Christ was). The soul is imparted simultaneously with the knitting of the flesh. Body and soul are inextricably bound. Body and soul are immediately tainted by Adam's sin. Our sin nature is bound up in our body and soul. Our whole person.

That was what I was wanting clarified.

1. Do you hold that God creates the soul first then imparts it or that it is created within body in the womb at the same time?

 

[Rippon]

That was what I was wanting clarified.

1. Do you hold that God creates the soul first then imparts it or that it is created within body in the womb at the same time?

Allan, that is dealing with speculation, not Revelation.

 

[Allan]

Allan, that is dealing with speculation, not Revelation.

No, there are those who use scripture to make such statements (not that they are correct) such as the "Creation theory" (Like Hodge) but it is his view I'm asking about and what he means. From my earlier post -

(2) Creation theory. This theory teaches that each human soul is an immediate and individual creation by God; the body alone is propagated by the parents. This view is held by Roman Catholics and many Reformed Christians, among them Charles Hodge. There are two reasons for this view: it maintains the purity of Christ—with this view Christ could not inherit a sinful nature from His mother; a distinction is made between a mortal body and an immortal soul—parents may propagate a mortal body but only God can produce an immortal soul. The problems with this view are: it necessitates an individual fall by each person because God can create only perfection; it does not account for the problem of why all men sin.

 

[Deacon]

If these two vs. are correct then tri is the correct view.

1Th 5:23*And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Heb 4:12*For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

And why not four parts?

And you must love the LORD your God with all your heart, all your soul, all your mind, and all your strength.’
Mark 12:30 NLT

Hodge, a dichotomist, writes
This view of the nature of man is of the more importance to the theologian because it has not only been held to a greater or less extent in the Church, but also because it has greatly influenced the form in which other doctrines have been presented;
Systematic Theology. Vol. 2, Page 47

Sometimes we let our doctrines influence our perceptions of Scripture rather than letting Scripture develop our doctrine.

Rob

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Incorrect - if Mary's egg was used, Jesus would have been tainted by the sin of Man.

Well see the Catholics have an interesting solution to this delema. On the other hand what?

 

[Brother Bob]

Allan, that is dealing with speculation, not Revelation.

Hbr 9:27And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

How can it be appointed if its already happened????

When we are born, we are born to die because of Adam's sin (flesh), but who knows when. Also, we will also spiritual die when we come to know God and Glorify Him not as God, for the soul that sinneth shall surely die, but who know how old? Therefore the "original sin" brought death.

Sure man is born under the sin curse, but its in the future somewhere.

Unless babies go to hell also? Of which would have to be true if they are born in sin and must believe to be saved and a baby can't "believe".

BBob,

 

[jdlongmire]

Allan, that is dealing with speculation, not Revelation.

Agreed - we have nothing telling us about the order, nor anything we can point to in Scripture to lead us there "of good and necessary consequence".

We do know that Man is a 2 part being, body and soul, and that they are inextricably bound together, except through death and even then, not permanently.

We also know that Man is born under the sin curse - body and soul tainted by the sin of Adam, otherwise there would be no death.

 

[jdlongmire]

When we are born, we are born to die because of Adam's sin (flesh), but who knows when. Also, we will also spiritual die when we come to know God and Glorify Him not as God, for the soul that sinneth shall surely die, but who know how old? Therefore the "original sin" brought death.

Unless babies go to hell also?

BBob,

This is a good point - if Man is born under the curse and an infant has no way of responding to the call, how does God disposition them?

This is exactly why we have confessions, to help sort through these things and not "reinvent the wheel" every time it comes up:

Infants dying in infancy are regenerated and saved by Christ through the Spirit, Who works when, where, and how He pleases. So also are all elect persons who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word.

LBC 1689

 

[Brother Bob]

It seems to me that everything you say, puts the baby right in hell, if it does not live long enough to repent and believe.

There is an "end" result for your belief.

Infants dying in infancy are regenerated and saved by Christ through the Spirit, Who works when, where, and how He pleases. So also are all elect persons who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word.

LBC 1689

How do you know, please tell me.

I think we are born with both deaths to come upon us, through some kind of action. It is only the unbelief that is going to hell.

I bring it up because it is true and something that has to be in the equation.

Eze 18:20The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

BBob,

 

[skypair]

You may agree, but what have you done to "test everything and keep the good"? - if you are only depending on your own reason and emotions, you will likely be in error.

Yeah, look what's already happened to YOU! :laugh: Take your own advice and listen to the Spirit.

Build on the good work of godly men that seek only God's glory.

Here's your real problem. Yours is the advice of Bildad in Job 8:8-10 -- "For enquire, ..., of the former age, and prepare thyself to the search of their fathers: (For we are but of yesterday, and know nothing, because our days upon earth are a shadow Shall not they teach thee, and tell thee, and utter words out of their heart?" but you forget that GOD says, "Let God be true and every MAN a liar!" You forget that Bildad got his "come-upance" on the spot when Elihu began to speak.

skypair

 

[jdlongmire]

Well see the Catholics have an interesting solution to this delema. On the other hand what?

On the other hand, Jesus Christ's body was knit together by God "from scratch" - that is, no genetic material from any Post-Fall Man was used.

He was literally and figuratively the second Adam.

 

[Brother Bob]

On the other hand, Jesus Christ's body was knit together by God "from scratch" - that is, no genetic material from any Post-Fall Man was used.

He was literally and figuratively the second Adam.

How could He be the "seed" of David, if that is so???

How could He be tempted??

How could He suffer, if a Heavenly flesh?

BBob,

 

[jdlongmire]

Yeah, look what's already happened to YOU! :laugh: Take your own advice and listen to the Spirit.

Here's your real problem. Yours is the advice of Bildad in Job 8:8-10 -- "For enquire, ..., of the former age, and prepare thyself to the search of their fathers: (For we are but of yesterday, and know nothing, because our days upon earth are a shadow Shall not they teach thee, and tell thee, and utter words out of their heart?" but you forget that GOD says, "Let God be true and every MAN a liar!" You forget that Bildad got his "come-upance" on the spot when Elihu began to speak.

skypair

My standard response link to skypair.:thumbs:

 

[skypair]

The Father did not create a "divine sperm" and fertilize Mary's egg, otherwise Jesus would have inherited the sin of Adam, through the flesh of Mary.

I think we do well to begin our research on the issue that distinguishes Jesus birth from ours --- THE BLOOD. Scripture tells us "the blood is the life thereof." Christ's blood was NOT defiled by Joseph's seed and whatever Christ had that allowed Him to be sinless, indwelt, God from birth had to do with the blood.

This could very well prove that Mary's egg had nothing to do with His sinLESSness nor with His brothers' sinFULness (which I believe to also be the case)!!

All that you gentlemen are presenting is the "philosophies of men." Let's examine the Truth, shall we? Eating the "forbidden fruit" poisoned the body (led to eventual death of all in the species) -- eating the "forbidden fruit" poisoned the spirit (now we would continue to trust self for what we wanted rather than God) -- eating the "forbidden fruit" immediately "killed" our soul's relationship with God ("the soul that sinneth, it shall surely die"). IOW, without a "inborn predisposition" of the soul towards God (which we call "justification"), we will receive the instinct of the spirit to satisfy self through self and, at some point, sin against God.

The soul is NOT born justified but neither is it born sinful. It is born in a state of innocence having 2 "curses:" 1) the 'curse' of the corruptible flesh and 2) the 'curse' of flesh-driven instincts/spirit.

skypair

 

[jdlongmire]

How could He be the "seed" of David, if that is so???

BBob,

This simply traces his lineage through His fleshly parents.

Christ also responds to this:
Matthew 22

41Now while the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them a question: 42"What do you think about the Christ, whose son is He?" They said to Him, "The son of David."
43He said to them, "Then how does David in the Spirit call Him 'Lord,' saying,
44'THE LORD SAID TO MY LORD,
"SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND,
UNTIL I PUT YOUR ENEMIES BENEATH YOUR FEET"'?
45"If David then calls Him 'Lord,' how is He his son?"
46No one was able to answer Him a word, nor did anyone dare from that day on to ask Him another question.



Jesus is the literal Son of God, He is the figurative Son of David, but in a way no one can contest, since He was "born" in the conventional way - that is through Man, but not of Man.


Cool how God works that stuff out, huh?

 

[Brother Bob]

This simply traces his lineage through His fleshly parents.

Christ also responds to this:
Matthew 22

41Now while the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them a question: 42"What do you think about the Christ, whose son is He?" They said to Him, "The son of David."
43He said to them, "Then how does David in the Spirit call Him 'Lord,' saying,
44'THE LORD SAID TO MY LORD,
"SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND,
UNTIL I PUT YOUR ENEMIES BENEATH YOUR FEET"'?
45"If David then calls Him 'Lord,' how is He his son?"
46No one was able to answer Him a word, nor did anyone dare from that day on to ask Him another question.



Jesus is the literal Son of God, He is the figurative Son of David, but in a way no one can contest, since He was "born" in the conventional way - that is through Man, but not of Man.


Cool how God works that stuff out, huh?

Seems they couldn't answer and neither can you. All I know is what scripture says:

Luk 1:32He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

Rom 1:3Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

Why would He not be the Lord of David, if He was conceived of the Holy Ghost, even if God did use a virgin from the household of David.

BTW: I think linage is a blood line is it not??

I am going to the Gym, so those who left can come back now.

BBob,

 

[skypair]

Yes, you are a sinner through the transmission of the sin by the father. Without a father there is no creation of a child thus it is concieved IN or already in sin. Why, because the sin nature was passed on AT conception and therefore he was concieved already in sin.

I would like to modify your and rip's understanding of that passage so that David was merely alluding to the fact that he was born of flesh which is sinful to flesh which is sinful.

Neither his mother nor David were sinning or sinful in his procreation.

skypair

 

[skypair]

jdl,

Infants dying in infancy are regenerated and saved by Christ through the Spirit, Who works when, where, and how He pleases. So also are all elect persons who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word.


LBC 1689

Now, can we find that in scripture please rather than in the "speculations of men's conventions??"

skypair

 

[skypair]

This simply traces his lineage through His fleshly parents.

OK, "Answerman," then how does Jesus become the "seed of the woman," Gen 3:15??

skypair