Did Adam die spiritually when he sinned?

[JonC]

You are on the right track.
Accept the text.
"DEATH" means to, well, die...
and that's what God said would happen to Adam if he ate said fruit.

Dying "Spiritually" is a problematic concept. All manner of Theological propositions are proposed because of insisting that this idea needs to be fleshed out.


Assuming humans are inherently "Spiritual" beings now inhabiting a body......then, "Spiritual" death is meaningful.
"Spiritual" is (IMO) simply a term to justify non-sensical statements that don't stand up to scrutiny.
One can always say that my Theological statements are "Spiritually" true. Even if everything I'm arguing is nonsense:

Adam was made from the Dust of the ground....not some ephemeral "Spiritual" matter.
God is fundamentally a "Spiritual" being.
Adam is not. Never was, never will be.

Although God himself is Spirit.......he created a material world:

God does not consider the "material" or physical to be somehow "lesser" than the spiritual.
He is Spirit: but he made the crowning achievement of his creation physical and material. It was a physical and material Universe he created, and a physical and material "image-bearer" he put in charge of it:

God wanted his image-bearer to rule his material world rightly.
B.T.W: to be an "image-bearer" is akin to being the "ambassador". Put differently, Adam holds the kings seal or "image"....
He has the authority to rule over his creation in God's name..........because he has the "image" (like a signet ring).

When, God's (who is spirit by nature) "image-bearer" (ambassador) failed to take care of his material world, he sentenced him to death.

God is by nature immortal.

Adam is not.

Adam needed access to the "tree of life" in order to live forever.
Genesis clearly tells us that God (after Adam's sin) did not want him to have access to the tree of life...
Otherwise:............. he might eat and LIVE FOREVER. So, he placed guardian Cherubs there to prevent his return to the garden.

God is telling Adam that when "in the day thou eatest, thou shalt surely die" is simple prolepis:

And that manner of speaking is common throughout the Hebrew Bible.

1Ki 2:37
For it shall be, that on the day thou goest out, and passest over the brook Kidron, thou shalt know for certain that thou shalt surely die: thy blood shall be upon thine own head.

1Ki 2:42
And the king sent and called for Shimei, and said unto him, Did I not make thee to swear by the LORD, and protested unto thee, saying, Know for a certain, on the day thou goest out, and walkest abroad any whither, that thou shalt surely die? and thou saidst unto me, The word that I have heard is good.

When Adam ate of the tree: God (who is immortal and Spiritual by nature) condemned him image-bearer Adam (who is material and physical by nature) to die.....

That is the teaching of the Hebrew Bible. That is Hebrew thought.

Ancillary questions are brought up by Greco-Roman paganism.

Paganism asserts that humans are not material beings, but "Spiritual" beings.
Paganism asserts that immortality is the default state of humans. We live forever, because we are inherently "Spiritual" and not physical beingsl

Christianity can only be understood given the Hebrew world-view:
God (who is spirit) became a man (who is flesh) in Jesus Christ.

Calvinism is based upon pagan assumptions about the nature of God, man, and Christ.

The Bible does not speak of Adam's death as a "SPIRITUAL" death....

It meant God was going to kill him.
Christ was killed in Adam's place.
Amen for that!

You misunderstand.

Jesus spoke of the "dead". This means people who are spiritually dead. Jesus said to let them burry their dead (physically dead).

I do not think those people were spiritually alive and then spiritually died. They were just in a state of spiritual death and in need of spiritual life (which can only be found in Christ Jesus).

Your error is assuming people who are in a state of spiritual death must have at one time been spiritually alive, then died spiritually, and need to be made spiritually alive again.

It seems a common error (at least judging from this board) that can be remedied by simply reading your Bible.

 

[JonC]

Again, Romans 1:18-32 and many other places tells me what happened to us, as a race...
Romans 3, Ephesians 4, Psalms 10, Psalms 14 and many others tell me the symptoms of this "death" and what it looks like;
While other places tell me the symptoms ( or evidences ) of the new life bestowed upon those who have believed on His Son.

Jon, he did die.
His death ( spiritual alienation from the Lord ), on the very day that he disobeyed God, was caused by Adam and came about in exactly the way the Lord foretold it.

I'm sorry that you cannot seem to see it, but there's enough there for me to see it plainly.

Since Adam was not immortal, and since he did not die that very day, physically,
Then the only other option is that he died spiritually.
My friend, that "death" is indeed described in detail...
Only it seems that you're not seeing it for some reason.

That said, I will take my leave of this thread and make it my last post.
We will have to agree to disagree.

May God bless you.

@Dave G ,

I understand the tradition you reference. I grew up in the same tradition.

But at some point we have to decide exactly what will be the criteria for our doctrine. Is it tradition (that Adam died spiritually) or is it Scripture (that Adam died in that he would become dust, that spiritual life is only in Christ, that spiritual life is not temporary, that spiritual life is everlasting but physical life [flesh] is subject to corruption and ultimately an end).

You can't have it both ways on this one. Either you hold to tradition or you hold to Scripture. I prefer the latter.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

You misunderstand.

Jesus spoke of the "dead". This means people who are spiritually dead. Jesus said to let them burry their dead (physically dead).

I do not think those people were spiritually alive and then spiritually died. They were just in a state of spiritual death and in need of spiritual life (which can only be found in Christ Jesus).

Your error is assuming people who are in a state of spiritual death must have at one time been spiritually alive, then died spiritually, and need to be made spiritually alive agai.

You misunderstand.

Jesus spoke of the "dead". This means people who are spiritually dead. Jesus said to let them burry their dead (physically dead).

I do not think those people were spiritually alive and then spiritually died. They were just in a state of spiritual death and in need of spiritual life (which can only be found in Christ Jesus).

Your error is assuming people who are in a state of spiritual death must have at one time been spiritually alive, then died spiritually, and need to be made spiritually alive again.

It seems a common error (at least judging from this board) that can be remedied by simply reading your Bible.

No.
The common practice was to bury the body:
Then when years had passed, to take the bones.....and place then in their final resting place.
When people refused to follow Christ, they made the excuse that they had to "bury" their dead.
Hence why erstwhile followers tried to buy themselves YEARS by sauyng:
"let me bury my father".
Their father had been dead for years....

Did you have any time to acrually read my post at all?
I don't think you did. I don't think you absorbed my argument at all.

The long and short of my argument is that "Spiritually" dead is usually nonsense, and that is not what the Scriptures are talking about at all.
I don't deny the concept...........as such:
Paul will use it as a metaphor.
Other New Testament writers use it...

The answer to your question in the O.P. is
NO
NO
NO
Adam didn't die "Spiritually".......he DIED!

 

[HeirofSalvation]

This all makes sense, if you accept that "die" means............
to "die".

You don't have to qualify the word.
It's the simplest word in every language on the planet.

"Die"
Means
"Die" "perish" "cease all vital functions" "become inert" et. al.

Accepting this will change your entire Theological worldview:
But, the Scriptures will make SO SO SO much more sense, if you accept it.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

Adam did NOT die "Spiritually" when he sinned...........
He DIED!

 

[JonC]

No.
The common practice was to bury the body:
Then when years had passed, to take the bones.....and place then in their final resting place.
When people refused to follow Christ, they made the excuse that they had to "bury" their dead.
Hence why erstwhile followers tried to buy themselves YEARS by sauyng:
"let me bury my father".
Their father had been dead for years....

Did you have any time to acrually read my post at all?
I don't think you did. I don't think you absorbed my argument at all.

The long and short of my argument is that "Spiritually" dead is usually nonsense, and that is not what the Scriptures are talking about at all.
I don't deny the concept...........as such:
Paul will use it as a metaphor.
Other New Testament writers use it...

The answer to your question in the O.P. is
NO
NO
NO
Adam didn't die "Spiritually".......he DIED!

I did. (Sorry....I meant to respond to another).

You are correct - Adam did not die spiritually. He died (returned to the "dust" from which he was made).

That said, yes I am aware of Jewish burial practices. We do not know if the man was referring to the "first burial" or "second burial". The elite were returned to their limestone tombs after their bones were washed.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Adam did NOT die "Spiritually" when he sinned...........
He DIED!

Yet he lived for 900 years. So how did he die?

 

[HeirofSalvation]

Yet he lived for 900 years. So how did he die?

The statement is prolepsis.
He was refused access to the tree of life and he eventually died, as do all of his progeny after him. He didn't have to instantly keel over. God used prolepsis. "In the day you eat, you shall surely die".
It's like a kid who does something wrong and says "I'm a dead man". Or, a condemned prisoner and people saying "dead man walking" (which did indeed happen). This is prolepsis.

From Merriam Webster:
ANTICIPATION: such as
a
: the representation or assumption of a future act or development as if presently existing or accomplished

There's no need to say he died "spiritually" that day. That is reading systematic Theological presuppositions back into the narrative. No one reading the initial narrative would have thought about it in those terms. Neither should we. Genesis should inform us of its intent. Our systematic Theology should not inform Genesis of its intent.

 

[JD731]

Spiritual death is not foreign to Scripture, I absolutely agree.

What IS foreign to Scripture is spiritually dying . This is at least the second time you have changed the topic to a straw man argument (I am sure unintentionally each time).

According to the Bible spiritual life is not temporary (it is not as the physical which passes away).

I think, JonC, that the problem is the scriptural definition of death. Most people do not agree on how to define it. God defines death as a separation. God is a Spirit, he says. The Spirit of God in Adam when he was created gave him the ability to fellowship in the presence of God, and he did. When sin entered in the fellowship was broken and God and Adam were separated by it. God was not separated from Adam, Adam was separated from God. The only way of reconciliation is to eliminate what was separating them. As soon as it was put away by the blood of Christ, the Spirit of God could once again dwell in man and they could be reconciled. The internal fellowship of God and man could not be renewed until it was. It was nothing God had done to cause this death but it was he who took the initiative to remedy it and to redeem man. The next four thousand years (four days on God's calendar) was preparation for the reconciling of God and man through the last Adam (who had the Spirit in his body from birth). He paid the ransom for sinners, death, and that body that was put in the tomb was incorruptible because it had never sinned, but it did not have the Spirit of God in it during the three days it was there. The idea that it did is pure ignorance of the scriptures. The soul of Jesus was in paradise in the heart of the earth and the Spirit who had dwelt in his body was in heaven until he raised Jesus from the dead. This is the first spiritual birth in human history. Jesus Christ is the firstborn son of God from the dead. I am a son of God. I was dead spiritually and I received Jesus Christ by faith and i was born again by receiving his Spirit into my body and he quickened me according to the scriptures. I was dead and now I am alive.

Isn't this what happened at the cross of Christ. Isn't the Spirit given to all mankind if they will receive him as the gift of God? Doesn't God say we have been reconciled to him by Jesus Christ? Yes, Adam died spiritually on the day he sinned. Yes, death is the separation of the indwelling Spirit of God from Adam. He was created the son of God, he was not born the son. He was not sealed with the Spirit as we are. There was no sacrifice for Adam in case he fell. But he was the son of God for two reasons. 1) Because he had the Spirit of God in his body, and 2) because God said he was before he sinned. The Spirit and sin cannot dwell there at the same time.

Jesus Christ died in the same manner Adam died. First spiritually, and then physically. We read in the gospels that the Spirit of God dwelt in the body of Jesus Christ just like he dwelt in the body of Adam.

Here are some verses to ponder but they will do no good if your mind is made up and cannot be changed even by God.

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

You can see that it is the Spirit of God who quickens the body by dwelling in it. This is not something new.

Jn 1:4 In him (Jesus) was life; and the life was the light of men.

1 Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Rom 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

Ro 5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life

Ro 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Rom 8:10 .... but the Spirit is life.....

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

The words of God are reasonable, simple, logical, and true.

Titus 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

Re 1:55 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

Those who are spiritually dead in Adam are in the presence of God physically, that is they enjoy his creation but the body is not eternal and the eternal soul cannot live in it forever. Physical death occurs when the soul and body are separated. The Body returns to dust and the soul is dispatched by God. See Rom 1.

May the Lord Jesus Christ be exalted and magnified by this post. It is my prayer.

 

[JD731]

I didn't search for anything. I have known since a child that Elisha had a double portion of the spirit that was on Elijah.

My point was there were more than two people in the OT that had God's Spirit in them, so pretending there were only two is just not true.

God deals with eternal life in the context of the first and last Adam, the first man and the second man. This does not mean that God the Spirit does not have an earthly ministry among men whenever he chooses and in whatever way he chooses, but God does constrain himself to context of his own story. IOW, God cannot lie, so he cannot do one thing and say another. If God says Jesus Christ was a man, the God man, and he died for our sins and was resurrected in a glorified body, and then declared that he was the firstborn son of God from the dead, then Elijah and Elisha could not be sons of God. Fortunately for the integrity of God and our confidence that what he says is always true, he did not claim that Elijah and Elisha were sons of God and that the Spirit working in them was a new birth. So, who has God called the son of God so far in the scriptures? Adam, Jesus, all those who have received the Spirit by trusting the salvation of God through the second son of God after he, Jesus, rose from the dead.

But, my guess is you will continue to claim for them whatever you have decided to believe about it.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

The statement is prolepsis.
He was refused access to the tree of life and he eventually died, as do all of his progeny after him. He didn't have to instantly keel over. God used prolepsis. "In the day you eat, you shall surely die".
It's like a kid who does something wrong and says "I'm a dead man". Or, a condemned prisoner and people saying "dead man walking" (which did indeed happen). This is prolepsis.

From Merriam Webster:
ANTICIPATION: such as
a
: the representation or assumption of a future act or development as if presently existing or accomplished

There's no need to say he died "spiritually" that day. That is reading systematic Theological presuppositions back into the narrative. No one reading the initial narrative would have thought about it in those terms. Neither should we. Genesis should inform us of its intent. Our systematic Theology should not inform Genesis of its intent.

so we are said to be dead because of sin. And we are told we need to be born again. How can we be dead. but yet still alive, and need to be made alive again (you can see why Nicodemus asked that question about his mothers womb)

 

[37818]

so we are said to be dead because of sin. And we are told we need to be born again. How can we be dead. but yet still alive, and need to be made alive again (you can see why Nicodemus asked that question about his mothers womb)

See also Mark 10:15, ". . . Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein. . . ."

 

[HeirofSalvation]

so we are said to be dead because of sin. And we are told we need to be born again. How can we be dead. but yet still alive, and need to be made alive again (you can see why Nicodemus asked that question about his mothers womb)

Agreed. We are spiritually dead in trespasses and sins. I don't think anyone disputes that.
What I do not think is that is what the Genesis narrative is about. I do not believe it was ever intended to be read that way.

 

[MrW]

If God says Jesus Christ was a man, the God man, and he died for our sins and was resurrected in a glorified body, and then declared that he was the firstborn son of God from the dead, then Elijah and Elisha could not be sons of God.

I don't follow your logic here. "Firstborn" means "preeminence", not chronology. God also called Isaac Abraham's "only son", yet Ishmael was Abraham's son for about 13 years before Isaac was conceived. Conclusion? Isaac was the son of promised; Ishmael wasn't, thus Abraham's "only son" from God's perspective.

God has many sons. The Lord Jesus is the preeminent one and He is the only "begotten" Son, yet (as you pointed out) Adam was also called a son of God.

Another example: We are all God's "offspring" but all are not God's children. We are children of God through faith in the Lord Jesus.

I said I don't understand your logic. I would appreciate you explaining it to me. Thank you in advance.

 

[JonC]

Yet he lived for 900 years. So how did he die?

?? Adam died. Scripture does not say Adam would die on the day he ate of the fruit.

God was very clear when He told Adam what the consequences were of his sin. He would have to labor to eat of the land and he would return to "dust".

Then, so that Adam would not eat of the Tree of Life, he was cast out of the Garden.

On the day Adam ate of the fruit he would surely die (a double use of "die").

Adam started dying on that day and he died centuries later. Death became certain.

 

[37818]

Adam started dying on that day and he died centuries later. Death became certain.

Adam began to die when his was created. Or the tree of life would not have been needed to be provieded.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Agreed. We are spiritually dead in trespasses and sins. I don't think anyone disputes that.
What I do not think is that is what the Genesis narrative is about. I do not believe it was ever intended to be read that way.

well if we are spiritually dead because of sin

And Adam sinned

Then by definition. Adam died spiritually

there is no other way to read it

 

[Eternally Grateful]

?? Adam died. Scripture does not say Adam would die on the day he ate of the fruit.

God was very clear when He told Adam what the consequences were of his sin. He would have to labor to eat of the land and he would return to "dust".

Then, so that Adam would not eat of the Tree of Life, he was cast out of the Garden.

On the day Adam ate of the fruit he would surely die (a double use of "die").

Adam started dying on that day and he died centuries later. Death became certain.

He did die

he was spiritually seperated from God. and like all of us, Needed Gods grace to be made alive again.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

well if we are spiritually dead because of sin

And Adam sinned

Then by definition. Adam died spiritually

there is no other way to read it

The only correct way to read it, is to understand that Genesis is speaking of physical death.
I can agree that Adam became spiritually dead.
The author of Genesis, however, says no such thing and does not intend for us to understand it that way.
When Adam died, it was physical death God had warned him of, and physical death he received. Reading "Spiritual death" into the Genesis narrative is a mistake. It was not intended to be read that way.

What you are suggesting is reading Systematic Theology back into a text. That is not good hermeneutics.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

The only correct way to read it, is to understand that Genesis is speaking of physical death

.thats not true

I can agree that Adam became spiritually dead.
The author of Genesis, however, says no such thing and does not intend for us to understand it that way.
When Adam died, it was physical death God had warned him of, and physical death he received. Reading "Spiritual death" into the Genesis narrative is a mistake. It was not intended to be read that way.

What you are suggesting is reading Systematic Theology back into a text. That is not good hermeneutics

he said IN THE DAY, you will die

Not 900 years later

physical death, like sickness, Cancer Disease, Weeds, Famine bad storms are a result of sin. not the penalty of sin.

I am not ready anything back into the text. I am reading he text as written